Is it okay to attend an SSPX Daily Mass and Receive Communion?

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Sorry, I just cannot agree with this.

If SSPX feels that to obey the Pope in this matter would be a disservice to the Faith, then they would be obliged in conscience not to act. This is the same if a Catholic believes a rite is invalid. If a Catholic feels a rite is invalid, he must not attend even if he turns out to be wrong,This is Church teaching.
Unless the order in question is objectively sinful, any and all burden of proof regarding said order’s sinfulness is on the person making the claim. And all benefit of the doubt is to go to the one giving the order. That’s what the saints all teach.

If a Catholic believes that an approved rite of the Church is invalid, the question of obeying or disobeying his conscience is moot because by not accepting the validity of a sacramental rite that the Church says is valid, he commits a MORTAL sin – grave disobedience at best and heresy at worst. Our Lord said the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church, and so if the Church approves intrinsically invalid sacramental rites, that would mean Jesus lied to us. The Church CANNOT approve an invalid sacramental rite. Period.
 
Unless the order in question is objectively sinful, any and all burden of proof regarding said order’s sinfulness is on the person making the claim. And all benefit of the doubt is to go to the one giving the order. That’s what the saints all teach.

If a Catholic believes that an approved rite of the Church is invalid, the question of obeying or disobeying his conscience is moot because by not accepting the validity of a sacramental rite that the Church says is valid, he commits a MORTAL sin – grave disobedience at best and heresy at worst. Our Lord said the gates of hell would never prevail against His Church, and so if the Church approves intrinsically invalid sacramental rites, that would mean Jesus lied to us. The Church CANNOT approve an invalid sacramental rite. Period.
I think there is a misunderstanding here.

The SSPX does not necessarily (as far as I know) believe that the New Mass is itself intrisically invalid. However, due to the loose nature of the rubrics, the opportunity for invalidity is greater, especially in cases where the Mass has been badly translated. I have been to New Masses where the validity was doubtful. Wrong matter, wrong intent, all much more easy to encounter in the New Mass than the Old. I believe that the SSPX point is that the New Mass, while it may be valid, is intrinsically weak, and to participate in it is participate in weakening the Faith. They feel that the new rites increase the possible of invalid sacraments.

By the way, that is why the SSPX is in dialogue with Rome, in order to share their concerns and give proof of justification for their actions.

Also, could you cite the saints who taught on this specifically? It might help increase our understanding of the situation of we can read into the broader context. Thank you.🙂
 
What about attending without recieving Communion?
Justa, If you were refraining from communion because you thought it might be invalid then you would have attended a Mass that you thought might be invalid… see where I’m going? 🙂

If there is proof that the Priest is not using proper form, matter, or intent then not only do you have an obligation NOT to attend but you have a grave obligation to bring this up to not only the Priest but also to the Bishop.

Form and matter since they are exterior actions are easy to identify but intent is a whole other matter. If you have a Priest who has proper form and matter and you are doubting his intent - well, I’m not sure how wise that would be since no one can judge what is in another man’s soul. But there might be some obvious signs such as dancing around the altar in a tu-tu or him saying that he has no intention of offering sacrifice etc… A priest’s lack of belief in the real presence, or his sinfulness, does not impact the validity of the sacrament as long as he has the intention of doing what the Church does.
 
Justa, If you were refraining from communion because you thought it might be invalid then you would have attended a Mass that you thought might be invalid… see where I’m going? 🙂

If there is proof that the Priest is not using proper form, matter, or intent then not only do you have an obligation NOT to attend but you have a grave obligation to bring this up to not only the Priest but also to the Bishop.

Form and matter since they are exterior actions are easy to identify but intent is a whole other matter. If you have a Priest who has proper form and matter and you are doubting his intent - well, I’m not sure how wise that would be since no one can judge what is in another man’s soul. But there might be some obvious signs such as dancing around the altar in a tu-tu or him saying that he has no intention of offering sacrifice etc… A priest’s lack of belief in the real presence, or his sinfulness, does not impact the validity of the sacrament as long as he has the intention of doing what the Church does.
Oh yes, I am very much aware of that.
If going to a Mass that is being presided by a priest who is ‘independent’ or suspended is defined as illicit because he is in rebellion against his own Bishop.
To answer my own question, what then would be the point of going? Catholics go to church to recieve the Eucharist. They do not, as our Baptist friends do, go to ‘hear the preacher’. Going would show an act of rebellion against the Church.
As any convert or revert will tell you, one of the obstacles in becoming a Catholic is the acceptance of authority. I am hearing many traditional Catholics dance around this, and it is bothersome. I do believe truth is on the side of traditional Catholics, and they are right in MANY areas.
But, it’s never right to do wrong so that right may triumph.
I’ll probably get flamed for that, but hey…😃
 
As any convert or revert will tell you, one of the obstacles in becoming a Catholic is the acceptance of authority.** I am hearing many traditional Catholics dance around this, and it is bothersome.**
Very good insight, JustaServant. I’ve often wondered how so called “traditionalists” can justify going to an illicit Mass, presided by a priest who was suspended of their faculties, who belong to a group who has had their founder and leading bishops excommunicated and yet, maintain there is nothing inherently wrong or disobedient about it. As you said, they “dance” around the issue very well but I have never seen any one of them address the facts head on. And I don’t want to hear about one particular person who wrote a letter to the Vatican. That response, and those like it, are intended for those particular people. The Vatican has never given a general statement regarding Catholics all over the world going to Masses presided by the sspx.

There is often the question as to whether the sspx are in a state of schism or not. While the opinions fly left and right here, the fact of the matter is that the Vatican has never addressed the question. If they were to do so, many here may not like the answer. I wonder how they would justify themselves then?
 
Very good insight, JustaServant. I’ve often wondered how so called “traditionalists” can justify going to an illicit Mass, presided by a priest who was suspended of their faculties, who belong to a group who has had their founder and leading bishops excommunicated and yet, maintain there is nothing inherently wrong or disobedient about it. As you said, they “dance” around the issue very well but I have never seen any one of them address the facts head on. And I don’t want to hear about one particular person who wrote a letter to the Vatican. That response, and those like it, are intended for those particular people. The Vatican has never given a general statement regarding Catholics all over the world going to Masses presided by the sspx.

There is often the question as to whether the sspx are in a state of schism or not. While the opinions fly left and right here, the fact of the matter is that the Vatican has never addressed the question. If they were to do so, many here may not like the answer. I wonder how they would justify themselves then?
If the Pope tomorrow lifted the suspensions (as he did the excumunications) and the SSPX was brought into full communion with the Holy See, AND if a parish was available within driving distance…I would probably go to that parish.
But until that time comes, the issue of authority remains and cannot be dodged. Its the 800 pound gorilla in the room.
I am not happy with many things I see within the Church today. But to rebel against that, to me, is returning to a Protestant “go it alone” mindset.
 
Very good insight, JustaServant. I’ve often wondered how so called “traditionalists” can justify going to an illicit Mass, presided by a priest who was suspended of their faculties, who belong to a group who has had their founder and leading bishops excommunicated and yet, maintain there is nothing inherently wrong or disobedient about it. As you said, they “dance” around the issue very well but I have never seen any one of them address the facts head on. And I don’t want to hear about one particular person who wrote a letter to the Vatican. That response, and those like it, are intended for those particular people. The Vatican has never given a general statement regarding Catholics all over the world going to Masses presided by the sspx.

There is often the question as to whether the sspx are in a state of schism or not. While the opinions fly left and right here, the fact of the matter is that the Vatican has never addressed the question. If they were to do so, many here may not like the answer. I wonder how they would justify themselves then?
Personally, attended for reaons Rome said were okay to attend- solid catechesis, reverence, etc. I had no intention of being disobedient. As I mentioned before, I have a picture of Cardinal Mahoney hanging in my kitchen. I do not like Cardinal Mahoney. A lot. But he is still my ordinary an we pray for him. So, I did not feel I was being disobedient when I attended SSPX because I knew my relationship with them was limited, for the protection of my Faith. They were not a be all and end all of Catholicism for me, although there were definitly some who attended where this was the case.
 
Very good insight, JustaServant. I’ve often wondered how so called “traditionalists” can justify going to an illicit Mass, presided by a priest who was suspended of their faculties, who belong to a group who has had their founder and leading bishops excommunicated and yet, maintain there is nothing inherently wrong or disobedient about it. As you said, they “dance” around the issue very well but I have never seen any one of them address the facts head on. And I don’t want to hear about one particular person who wrote a letter to the Vatican. That response, and those like it, are intended for those particular people. The Vatican has never given a general statement regarding Catholics all over the world going to Masses presided by the sspx.

There is often the question as to whether the sspx are in a state of schism or not. While the opinions fly left and right here, the fact of the matter is that the Vatican has never addressed the question. If they were to do so, many here may not like the answer. I wonder how they would justify themselves then?
Personally, attended for reaons Rome said were okay to attend- solid catechesis, reverence, etc. I had no intention of being disobedient. As I mentioned before, I have a picture of Cardinal Mahoney hanging in my kitchen. I do not like Cardinal Mahoney. A lot. But he is still my ordinary and we pray for him. So, I did not feel I was being disobedient when I attended SSPX because I knew my relationship with them was limited, for the protection of my Faith. They were not a be all and end all of Catholicism for me, although there were definitly some who attended there where this was the case.
 
So,** I did not feel **I was being disobedient when I attended SSPX because I knew my relationship with them was limited,
Not to pick a fight, but Catholics do not discern anything through ‘feelings’.
If that were the case, I might as well join the 'Flock that Likes to Rock Charismatic Church down the road and join the preacher in Benny Hinn Bunny Hop.:eek:
I prefer the Benny Hill Bunny Hop. 😃

Seriously, authority and obedience to that authority (whether one agrees with it or not) are paramont to the Catholic.
 
I had no intention of being disobedient.
Are you admitting that participating in an illicit Mass by suspended priests with no faculties is being disobedient? If so, even though you may have no “intention” you are still being disobedient if you knowingly attend.
 
Are you admitting that participating in an illicit Mass by suspended priests with no faculties is being disobedient? If so, even though you may have no “intention” you are still being disobedient if you knowingly attend.
I guess it helps to be very precise in these posts.

My only point was, even if you construed attending an SSPX Mass as disobedient, which I do not necessarily believe is the case, my own personal experience shows you can attend their Masses (which I do not anymore) without the desire to be disobedient. Some posters have been using language that makes it sound as if people who attend SSPX chapels are intentionally being disobedient. I am simply trying to point out that this does not have to be the case, and even Roman officials have pointed out this can be good cause to attend one of their chapels, and that you can even give money in their support. How else do we construe this? Rome does not even say this of the Eastern schismatics!

That being said, I will honestly say that there are some who attend SSPX chapels out of a desire to not obey. They do not care as long as they do not attend the New Mass. Even though SSPX forbids sedevacantists from attending their chapels, closet ones still sneek in. They would go to ICK, SSPV, CMRI, FSSP, independents or anything that might be available. These people have no desire to see SSPX dialogue with Rome, and have no desire of ever returning to the institutional Church. They go out of sentiment regardless of who it is. That then, is where I see real disobedience, paying lip service to SSPX or FSSP priests in order to receive the sacraments. Not cool in my book. I am sure there are others who can attest to meeting these types at the various Old Masses.

My question in return is: what are we to do of cases like Cardinal Mahoney, who in my own personal experience has expressed real heresies? Is obedience to him compulsory? Should we not obey God, rather than men? Have not theologians and saints said the hierarchy can and does err?

Just a thought.🤷
 
The church calls us, in the name of God, to be obedient to our bishops, so long as our bishops remain in unity with the church.

For clerics, this call is under pain of grave sin.

If one’s bishop should prove heterodox, one has the right to appeal/complain to one’s metropolitan (Archbishop), and if the metropolitan is heterodox, to the Primate of one’s Church (for the Roman Church, this is the pope), and then to the Holy See of the Pope.
 
The church calls us, in the name of God, to be obedient to our bishops, so long as our bishops remain in unity with the church.

For clerics, this call is under pain of grave sin.

If one’s bishop should prove heterodox, one has the right to appeal/complain to one’s metropolitan (Archbishop), and if the metropolitan is heterodox, to the Primate of one’s Church (for the Roman Church, this is the pope), and then to the Holy See of the Pope.
I agree, but nowhere does it say we should assent to their errors until otherwise told not to. To do so would be to the ruin of the Church.

St. Robert Bellarmine gives example:

"Then two years later came the lapse of Liberius, of which we have spoken above. Then indeed the Roman clergy, stripping Liberius of his pontifical dignity, went over to Felix, whom they knew [then] to be a Catholic. From that time, Felix began to be the true Pontiff. For although Liberius was not a heretic, nevertheless he was considered one, on account of the peace he made with the Arians, and by that presumption the pontificate could rightly [merito] be taken from him: for men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple [simpliciter], and condemn him as a heretic."

Notice he does not say here we must await a formal delaration of heresy. If St. Robert says this is enough to lose the pontificate, how much more a bishop?

He continues:
"And in a letter to the clergy of Constantinople, Pope St. Celestine I says: ‘The authority of Our Apostolic See has determined that the bishop, cleric, or simple Christian who had been deposed or excommunicated by Nestorius or his followers, after the latter began to preach heresy shall not be considered deposed or excommunicated. For he who had defected from the faith with such preachings, cannot depose or remove anyone whatsoever.’

None of us have the authority to depose a bishop. But can we remain in union with one who harms the faith?

Another example, though not proven with complete certainty, is Pope St. Marcellinus. In the Liber Ponitificalis, the story is rendered of St. Marcellinus, out of fear, offering incense to pagan gods and idols. This is why it is believed early liturigical books and calendars had omitted his name, for it was believed he had lost the pontificate, even if only until he recanted his error, which he did. Again, the info is sketchy, but it did show that in the early Church, if there was doubt regarding a bishop’s faith, communion with him was doubted, for we cannot be united with one who openly has not the Faith. Several saints and theologians point this out.

Before anybody assumes, this is not an argument for sedevacantism, or denying our lawful ordinary. It is an argument that we should not follow a bishop into darkness, like the blind leading the blind. The point is one who preaches falsehood is not united to the Church, even if he has not officially lost his position, he has lost it in spirit. So we must resist them, even as St. Paul resisted St. Peter to the face, otherwise we are not living up to our responsible as member’s of Christ’s Church.

Any thoughts?
 
What’s a sedevacantist? Is he/she a “Catholic” who believes that Pope John XXIII and the Popes who came after him are all “antipopes”?

-sparkie:shrug:
 
What’s a sedevacantist? Is he/she a “Catholic” who believes that Pope John XXIII and the Popes who came after him are all “antipopes”?

-sparkie:shrug:
Except that, per Trent, denial of the pope automatically (laetae sentencae) excommunicates them. (I believe the actual wording is “let him be anathema”…)

Eve: We are not, as individuals, fit to judge the bishops; that always has been, and within the church, probably always shall be, the job of the synod and the Holy See. We have right to make our concerns known, but not to disobey, even when we are certain we’re right.

So if your bishop orders you to receive lying on your side, you do so (or choose not to receive), and notify the Holy See (via the CDWS) of his abuse, and be ready to testify if called. You also get your friends to write testimonials complaining of it. But until the CDWS acts, or the Pope, or the metropolitan, you obey or abstain, and offer it up.

The church is not now, nor has it ever been perfect, since Ieshua ben Iosef bar Nazarath, who is the Christ, told a fisherman “feed my sheep” on the shores of the sea of Galilee. But it is our one conduit of grace, and our rock in times of trouble.

And in this era of overlapping jurisdiction, one can always seek out the solace of the Eastern Catholic Churches, who are unaffected by the whole Pauline mass issue. (Ok, the Maronites seem to have jumped on the same bandwagon as the Romans…)
 
Except that, per Trent, denial of the pope automatically (laetae sentencae) excommunicates them. (I believe the actual wording is “let him be anathema”…)

Eve: We are not, as individuals, fit to judge the bishops; that always has been, and within the church, probably always shall be, the job of the synod and the Holy See. We have right to make our concerns known, but not to disobey, even when we are certain we’re right.

So if your bishop orders you to receive lying on your side, you do so (or choose not to receive), and notify the Holy See (via the CDWS) of his abuse, and be ready to testify if called. You also get your friends to write testimonials complaining of it. But until the CDWS acts, or the Pope, or the metropolitan, you obey or abstain, and offer it up.

The church is not now, nor has it ever been perfect, since Ieshua ben Iosef bar Nazarath, who is the Christ, told a fisherman “feed my sheep” on the shores of the sea of Galilee. But it is our one conduit of grace, and our rock in times of trouble.

And in this era of overlapping jurisdiction, one can always seek out the solace of the Eastern Catholic Churches, who are unaffected by the whole Pauline mass issue. (Ok, the Maronites seem to have jumped on the same bandwagon as the Romans…)
I am sorry, but I fear I cannot agree with you, nor, in fairness, have you presented me with documentation to change my mind.

What you are basically saying is that the bishop can blaspheme, proclaim heresies, and spit on Our Lord both figuratively and literally, and we should just grin and bear it until the Holy See sees fit to act!?!

There appears to be confusion over private judgement and public judgement, i.e. “I think the bishop is wrong, and I cannot support him,” and “The bishop is wrong, and it is heretical and schismatic to follow him.” The first is binding on one’s own conscience, which we are at liberty to do. The second is binding on the conscience of others, which only the hierarchy can do.

I fail to see where you find this strange doctrine of “whatever the bishop says goes.” I will cite further examples of where this has clearly not occured:
  1. St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, who resisted the teaching of Pope Honorius on monothelism, and was persecuted in his lifetime for having himself and his diocese resist, both by Pope and the Emperor, until Pope Severinus condemned Pope Honorius’ teachings. The Third Council of Constantinople also referred to Pope Honorius as a heretic, anathametizing him. Pope Leo II confirmed this. Of course, this did not affect his charism of infallibility, for he did not define anything.
  2. Pope Zosimus recognized a heresy as orthodox, pelagianism, writting this into Apostolic letters Postquam Nobis and Magnum Pondus. This was a heresy already condemned by Pope Innocent I. St. Augustine and St. Aurelius took an oath to God in protest against the Pope. When the African bishops assembled to condemn Pope Zosimus’ position and uphold Pope Innocent I, His Holiness recanted.
  3. Pope Vigilius, after years of persecution and resistance, condemned the Council of Chalcedon in his Constitum of 554, wrote a letter retracting orthodoxy to Patriach Eutychus, and then died without retracting these. St. Columbanus of Ireland wrote a letter to his successor, Pope Boniface IV, reprimanding him for his weakness and not to follow in Pope Vigilius’ footsteps. In Northern Italy the ecclesiastical provinces of Milan and Aquileia broke communion with the Rome, until orthodoxy was restored, for Aquileia this meant 140 years later. They are often today considered the champions of the Catholic position, which the Pope had not been.
Again, none of this affected the charism of infallibility, since nothing was defined.

Other examples can be cited, but must they be? Is it not clear our allegiance is to God, rather than men? Does not His doctrine, his will, triumph over all powers on earth.

So I ask in return then: If none of this is evidence the hierarchy can err, and we are not to follow if they do, what is? If these are not examples, then when can the hierarchy or Pope err? We believe the Pope can err, if he does not speak ex cathedra, and of course bishops are not infallible at all. Can this not be true of the hierarchy now? When is enough enough? When may we defend the Catholic Faith…?
 
And in this era of overlapping jurisdiction, one can always seek out the solace of the Eastern Catholic Churches, who are unaffected by the whole Pauline mass issue. (Ok, the Maronites seem to have jumped on the same bandwagon as the Romans…)
Aramis, are you prostylizing ? What stake do you have in all of this ?
 
Aramis, are you prostylizing ? What stake do you have in all of this ?
The good of others souls. I genuinely believe the SSPX priests are in mortal error by their disobedience to their suspensions, and I have genuine doubts that they will return to proper submission to the hierarchy.

And if the faithful stopped attending their illicit masses, and instead attended the licit diocesan TLM’s and DLM’s, and/or the EC’s, the SSPX might cure their own disobedience, and the bishops might realize the support is genuine, not rooted in disobedience.

I’m a strong fan of the right to address the bishops, and if they are the problem, the metropolitan, and if they are the problem, the higher authority of the patriarchal see and/or the Holy See. (Only in the eastern catholic churches is the patriarchal see an option, and only in 8 of the 22…)

Document, report, and when entire parishes are disordered, vote with your feet to another parish, but not to schism.
 
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