Is it okay to deny christ in word to save your life if you have a family depending on you?

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TheLittleLady said:
What you describe here is hinting at the sin of presumption - when we sin intentionally thinking “I can just go to Confession”.
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I am not sure it is a sin because it is done under extreme duress. I read that when the Muslims conquered certain parts of Europe, they lined people up and each person was asked if he or she could reject Christianity and accept Islam. If you hesitate or say no, you are put in a line where they will chop off your head. If you say yes, they will let you go and live in peace. After seeing all those bloody chopped heads lying on the ground, It seems like you could make a mental reservation and say yes, but have the intention of remaining Christian. I thought that the Roman Catholic religion allows mental reservations.
 
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Sin is still sin. The culpability may be less because of duress, however, Matthew chapter 10 is pretty clear that the sin of denying Christ is extremely serious. Of course, not all of us would love Christ enough to embrace martyrdom. We should pray each day that we grow to have that love.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Sin is still sin.
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Has the rule been changed on making mental reservations? I thought that in the past (1595) it was allowed to make a mental reservation under certain conditions?
According to Robert Southwell and Henry Garnet, author of A Treatise of Equivocation ( 1595)—priests could have used equivocation in England (under James VI and/or I) when it was a capital offence for a Roman Catholic priest to enter England. The Jesuit priest could make a mental reservation and deny that he was a priest and it would not be a sin as he wanted to enter England.
Now do you say it was a mortal sin for the priest to make a mental reservation, effectively denying that he was a priest, to enter England?
 
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TheLittleLady said:
Strict mental reservation “is actually a lie and is never allowed.”
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That is strict mental reservation which is not the same as ordinary mental reservation. Do you say that ordinary mental reservation was a mortal sin for the Catholic priests to use as they entered England under James VI / I ?
 
As I said, it is a complex matter, priests in Reformation England are not the topic of this thread (you may wish to start one) . I was not a priest at that time, I was not their confessor, and my time machine broke last week. We’ll have to leave that one to God to decide.

It is a sin to deny Christ. Christ said it, the Church has always taught that Apostasy is a sin http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01624b.htm
 
TheLittleLady said:
It is a sin to deny Christ.
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The priests who entered England denied that they were Catholic priests and it was morally allowed under the theory of mental reservation. So I don’t see why this theory of mental reservation would not apply similarly to those people who were standing in line and asked if they denied Christianity and accepted Islam. The alternative to saying yes, was to get your head chopped off. It looks to me that this is an example of where ordinary mental reservation could be used. I see you that you do not answer the question of whether or not it was a mortal sin for a priest to deny that he was a priest. This is a historical fact and it was justified under the theory of mental reservation.
 
People in history have justified many things.

Have you read the novel “Silence”? It broaches the idea of apostasy vs martyrdom.

Many saints have been martyrs. I’ve not seen any unrepentant Christ deniers be presented for canonization. Our goal is heaven.
 
AlNg said:
Do you say that ordinary mental reservation was a mortal sin for the Catholic priests to use as they entered England under James VI / I ?
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You are proposing that a Catholic priest wanted to enter England to be a priest to people in England, but would have to lie and say he was not a priest to enter or be put to death? The priest has two choices.
  1. Disobey God and do not try to enter England. (By abandoning your vocation, mission, and people God has entrusted to you.) “Lord, you called but I would not go.”
  2. Lie to the guards who do not have the right to that truth about you.
This is not “evil so that good may come of it.” This is the lesser of two unavoidable evils. The fault for the lie is on the person committing the evil of putting the priest in that horrible sin trap. He has no choice but to sin. He must choose the lesser of two evils.

Allowing them to assume he is not a priest by disguising himself as a lay person is not a sin. I do that to my kids every day—act like I know all the answers and act like I know what I am doing and that I deserve the title “competent.” I let them believe that I am because they need to so the world can feel safe. Really I am a scared little girl in way over my head in matters to precious to be bungled by an amateur like me!! But I don’t have to tell them that!!

Finally, this is very different.

In this case the person also has two choices.
  1. Tell a lie AND deny God.
  2. Tell the truth, give heroic witness to God, and become a Saint.
You cannot do evil that good might come of it.
 
Teek said:
Tell a lie AND deny God.
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In the case of a mental reservation, you are not telling a lie and you are not denying God. You are making a mental reservation in order to protect your family, your loved ones and yourself. You don’t want everyone around to get their heads chopped off. You want Catholicism to be able to live. You are still remaining a Catholic at heart, and you do not deny God in your heart, but you do not tell that to a person who has no right to know.
 
AlNg said:
Do you say that ordinary mental reservation was a mortal sin for the Catholic priests to use as they entered England under James VI / I ?
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Also there is another glaring difference. The priests were going towards danger to do spiritual battle at great personal risk to themselves. The OP’s scenario was to flee danger and minimize risk to one’s self for the sake of those depending on one.

Sort of like a break in. Two perpetrators broke down the door. Both have items that belong to the owner of the house. One person was running out of the door with the owner’s items. One was running in to give them to the owner. Both “broke in.” But the feel of what was being done by each person is very different. (Not a perfect analogy. Actually, it is really very flawed. So please only use it to appreciate the different flavor that the same act can have based on intent and discard the analogy before you get too close to it. It stops working very quickly.)
 
Teek said:
The priests were going towards danger to do spiritual battle at great personal risk to themselves.
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That is a great similarity to the example that I have given. The Catholics want to remain Catholic and provide support to other Catholics who also want to remain Catholic. The only way they can do that is to make a mental reservation, otherwise, their heads will be chopped off.
There are other examples of where it is permissable to make a mental reservation and it is not considered lying. For example, when the Nazi gestappo comes to the door and asks you if there are any Jews in your house and you know that all Jews caught will be sent to the gas chamber for execution. You have a young girl hidden in your house, but you tell the gestappo no, there are no Jews here. AFAIK, the Catholic religion allows you to say so under the theory of mental reservation?
Teek said:
Tell a lie
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It is my understanding that ordinary mental reservation is not a lie. For another example, if a saleswoman comes to the door and asks for John. But John is busy at his work which must be finished now. He cannot be bothered . The lady is trying to sell you some timeshare program, which you don’t want anyway, so you tell her, no, he is not here now. Is it true that Catholics are allowed to say such and do not have to confess that as a mortal sin of lying because it is a mental reservation?
 
AlNg said:
For another example, if a saleswoman comes to the door and asks for John. But John is busy at his work which must be finished now. He cannot be bothered . The lady is trying to sell you some timeshare program, which you don’t want anyway, so you tell her, no, he is not here now. Is it true that Catholics are allowed to say such and do not have to confess that as a mortal sin of lying because it is a mental reservation?
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You could just say “We are not interested,” or “He cannot come to the door right now. Goodbye.” I think I’m that case it would be an unnessesary lie/mental reservation. That lie is not to willfully deceive the salesperson in order to harm her or take advantage of her. It is venal, mental reservation or no. It was a more expedient way of dismissing someone as politely and succinctly as possible. Not stellar morally, but not the same sort of situation.

In that example, you told a lie to get the woman to leave while giving her no opening to try to keep convincing you.

The priest denies that he is a priest.

In the original case: YOU DENY GOD.

I an see where people are coming from who take the other side. It is a very sympathetic case and is so far from denying God because you truly are denouncing Him that it seems like a completely different issue. But the more I think about it, the more certain I become that there is literally nothing that can justify in any way denying God. He DIED for you!

I think what stands out to me most about it is that it is ultimately an act of distrust or disbelief in His ability to take of things without you. He created the universe! Your kids would be in His hands and He is faithful! That is my personal opinion.

The whole point of this life is to choose God over all else, or reject Him. At the end of our lives, that choice becomes permanent.

Suppose a person renounced God because they would let him live if he did, but they decided to kill him anyway. No chance for repentance.

Just to throw out a different perspective, I just polled a batch of elementary school kids. I asked, “If someone says they will kill you unless you say you don’t believe in Jesus, is it ok to say you don’t believe in Jesus?”

No. They were unanimous that you can never say that.
 
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AlNg said:
True
but with all those bloody chopped heads of Catholics lying on the ground, it doesn’t look too good right now
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Although they are not strictly Christian, the blood was needed to wash the hands to complete the jihad oaths. Young teens wanted to jihad in Syrian war and their home countries said okay if that’s what you want to do, but don’t come back because we don’t believe in jihad. So they went, but too many went and weren’t needed. At first their home countries allowed some back, a very dangerous move. However, then they no longer. So the leaders of the world got together to decide where these young jihad should go and they decided that there is no where at all on Earth for them. So they get out of their oath anyway they can. Hundreds of thousands of dollars asked to save one Christian. Hardly anyone can pay. Even if the person say they are not a Christian it won’t work for long, because you are a Christian and Jesus will fight for your soul. It would have been better for the not used jihad to be told they must become Christians by their countries since they are outcasts, than kill Christians for Christian blood. Christ’s body and blood is what they needed to save them.
 
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