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Bookcat
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My point still remains. It is not a big deal my wife has had it done a number of times…tis a loss of the capacity to see.
Not about to read the thread…
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Not about to read the thread…
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Graubo3
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Bolding mine. I agree with you wholeheartedly. No one should be forced to do something against their will be it invasive ultrasounds, Obamacare, Catholic employers, gun laws, etc… based on legislative emotions. Unfortunately, both sides play the same games and it appears to be getting worse or we are more informed with what the pieces behind the pawns are doing.
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seekerz
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My point is that you (or your wife) have no standing to tell another woman what is ‘invasive’ to her. For example, there are sexual abuse victims who successfully maneuver loving relationships but would still balk at vaginal procedures of any kind - to the point where they might opt for a much more invasive form of delivery (C/section) rather than submit to vaginal exams. Similarly, many women I know, who have had more than one vaginal delivery, still avoid Gyn visits because of the pelvic exam. Invasive is not only relative, it is also subjective and therefore a woman’s right to refuse should not be subject to oversight by ideologues.
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seekerz
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That’s a broader view than the one I hold. There’s no society, either existing or historical, in which rights of individuals have been held as absolute. Individual rights have always been balanced against responsibilities and against the rights of others. Taken to a logical conclusion, no woman should be forced to bring a baby to term either, if that’s against her will - and I suspect this is not the viewpoint you hold.
All I am suggesting is that laws be based on logical arguments supported by real evidence as opposed to simply being a contest of wills based on passionate emotions.
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Bookcat
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I am not staying with this thread by the way…and am not going to get into this. So I will not be responding further here.
I stand by my wife and I’s finding it quite disconcerting (etc)…
The Culture of* Death*.
Simply make abortions illegal of course would be the way to go…
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Graubo3
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And I noticed you glossed over what I mentioned that you probably support and for other threads sometime
.Peace, Graubo
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seekerz
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Ditto, for your response; you glossed over what you were not interested in addressing. To address the individual issues you raised more directly, I am:
- against forced ultrasounds (vaginal ones are invasive regardless of consent),
- against forcing Catholic employers to pay for contraception (though I do wish Catholics would be consistent in practice as in beliefs),
- in favor of universal coverage (I am not wedded to one particular way of achieving this but do see it as a question of the common good and of the responsibility each beneficiary has, to contribute financially)
- in favor of regulating the use, sale and manufacture of guns based on objective evidence regarding risk (the right to life supersedes the right to bear arms, though both must be respected and preserved)
- against abortion (since I believe God’s right to give or take life is absolute and since I see the woman’s ‘choice’ as happening at the time of conception)
- add your question…I’m an individual issue person with a strong bias against wholesale subscription to ideologies
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aragonjohn1
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Yes if it was a lecit reason(s) for the health or well being of the mother father baby or younger children but she would have to assent in some way
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seekerz
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If she gives assent then how is it forced?
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TheRealJuliane
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seekerz, can I ask you why you are arguing about this? What is your main concern with offering an ultrasound to a pregnant, possibly abortion-minded woman? The entity being forced to do something is the abortion clinic, not the woman.
Why is this so important, since you say you are anti-abortion - this works, we know that it works, why would you not be glad for it?
Why is this so important, since you say you are anti-abortion - this works, we know that it works, why would you not be glad for it?
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seekerz
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Might I ask why you continue to argue this without directing us to the evidence that it works? It’s a simple question really. Armed with some real evidence, we could then get to the next question: is it ethical?
P.S. I don’t “say” - I am against abortion.
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TheRealJuliane
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seekerz
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What question? Why do I keep participating on this thread? Because I find it intellectually stimulating. It’s a serious matter, but I can’t suppress a little chuckle at how hard it is for some posters to admit that there is no real basis (theological, scientific or legal) on which to firmly say that forcing a woman to undergo a pre-abortion ultrasound is 1. helpful or 2. right.
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TheRealJuliane
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Who is forcing a woman to have an invasive ultrasound?
Give the evidence.
Give the evidence.
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seekerz
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Have we gotten to word games now? I did not use the word invasive in my post above, but in any event, forcing a person to have a medical procedure is generally considered unethical. I could conceive that there might be moral or scientific justification though, but this justification simply has not been provided (to my knowledge).
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jilly4ski
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seekerz. I thought we had already established that an ultrasound was a necessary procedure. PP already admitted to doing ultrasounds before abortions or during abortions. Every pregnant woman who goes into an OB for her first pre-natal gets an ultrasound. This is standard operating procedure, and good medical practice. In order to preform an abortion, the “doctor” must know the gestational age of the fetus. In order to do the correct procedure and to be within the reporting laws. This is common sense. I believe there was also articles posted showing a doctor being disciplined for messing up 2 abortions, because he failed to do an ultrasound and only relied on an internal vaginal exam (which is way more invasive than an ultra sound). So your objections are moot.
A doctor to avoid malpractice must do at least a vaginal exam and/or an ultrasound and probably both. It is with in the state’s power to regulate the medical profession (Health, safety, welfare of its citizens clause) and in fact already do regulate the medical practice. Just like they determine what conditions must be present for surgical and non surgical clinics etc. or which shots are mandated when, or what informed consent is needed, they can do so here. The legislature can indeed mandate procedures to prevent doctors’ malpractice (think snake oil salesmen).
Can the oral surgeon force me to have a panoramic x-ray before I get my wisdom teeth out? There is of course no law about this as of now, but sure he can, as far has he can refuse to take my teeth out, without me first consenting to the x-ray. Would you be objecting to a law requiring a panoramic x-ray before a tooth removal? All this does, is help the patient have informed consent and prevents the doctor from committing malpractice.
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LilyM
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I have, prior to having any surgery, always had indepth discussions about it with the surgeon - including looking at and discussing x-rays or scans of the relevant body parts where these have been scanned or x-rayed. Now stats indicate that scans/ultrasounds are routinely done on women pre an abortion.
I don’t know any decent surgeon who would NOT show and discuss x-rays or scans with the patient prior to surgery where they are available, with two exceptions.
The first being an emergency where the patient may need to be operated on so quickly that there is little or no time for discussion, or they may be unconscious or something. that would include an emergency appendectomy.
The other exception would be if the patient wouldn’t understand - eg a very young child, someone who has some disability that impairs their comprehension or the like. Even in those cases, elective surgeries are still discussed indepth with a carer/parent/responsible adult.
Since abortions are rarely emergencies, and even more rarely performed on those incapable of consent, prudent medical practice would dictate that ultrasounds be routinely taken and discussed with the patient.
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seekerz
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Medical expertise, not politics, should decide what pre-operative procedures or tests are needed. If doctors feels that pre-abortion ultrasounds should be mandatory, they they could collaborate with legislators to legislate accordingly. Usually though, they make their internal rules that all doctors follow if they don’t want to lose their licenses or be sued. I see no basis for activist and legislators creating standards for medical practice without some evidence from the medical community that these standards are indicated.
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TheRealJuliane
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*We were very busy again today as we served seven women!
One was a young lady that we originally saw in our mobile center ten days ago when she was on her way into Planned Parenthood. When we performed her ultrasound at that time we saw that she was very early and we weren’t able to see her unborn child, just the gestational sac that the baby was growing in.
She returned today for a follow up ultrasound. She is still very early but we were able to show her the tiny baby growing in her uterus. She was so excited! She told us that she was so glad that she did not go through with what her boyfriend had been wanting her to do. She had not told us this originally and it is amazing she was able to withstand the pressure he had been putting her through for the last several days.
So, even without seeing her child during her first visit, just hearing us speak about it was enough for her to chose life! Praise God!*
Seeing her baby means a woman chooses life! Praise God!
One was a young lady that we originally saw in our mobile center ten days ago when she was on her way into Planned Parenthood. When we performed her ultrasound at that time we saw that she was very early and we weren’t able to see her unborn child, just the gestational sac that the baby was growing in.
She returned today for a follow up ultrasound. She is still very early but we were able to show her the tiny baby growing in her uterus. She was so excited! She told us that she was so glad that she did not go through with what her boyfriend had been wanting her to do. She had not told us this originally and it is amazing she was able to withstand the pressure he had been putting her through for the last several days.
So, even without seeing her child during her first visit, just hearing us speak about it was enough for her to chose life! Praise God!*
Seeing her baby means a woman chooses life! Praise God!
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seekerz
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Saying it more times doesn’t make give it any extra statistical weight. I enjoy seeing ultrasound images too - have them stuck in a scrapbook - watching them ignites the tiger-mother in me. I would still protest any law based on solely on my experience, that mandates women keep baby scrapbooks.
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