Is it okay to not say the Rosary daily?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I think from now on I’ll just quote Saint Louis in Marian discussions. I say the same thing as him, but he says it better. Besides, it’s not hard for people to guess my sources.

+1 for seeing it, A Catholic !

 

[A_Catholic]

I think from now on I’ll just quote Saint Louis in Marian discussions. I say the same thing as him, but he says it better. Besides, it’s not hard for people to guess my sources.

+1 for seeing it, A Catholic !

I always find it’s best to quote the “experts” rather than just give my own opinion, which basically counts for nothing, anyway. But I do want you to know that I truly appreciated your posts.

 

[JRKH]

I always find it’s best to quote the “experts” rather than just give my own opinion, which basically counts for nothing, anyway. But I do want you to know that I truly appreciated your posts.

Yes A Catholic…I believe it is good to “quote the experts”. That is why I try to stick to the Documented teachings of the Church on such matters.

You are partly right in that the writings you quoted by St. Louis Marie de Montfort are troubling to me. Thankfully, since they come under the heading of private revelation, I am not bound by them.

But more importantly to the conversation at hand is the fact that Laudate Dominum did not simply quote de Montfort, about the great benefits of the rosary and/or Marian devotion. The post went well beyond this by painting a picture of any other road being basically impassible.
Now - for myself, this is not a problem because I know that such private revelation is not binding. But - I speak up for any who might be lurking here and become confused between what the Church actually teaches and de Montfort’s private revelation.

Finally - I would suggest that other saints have had other private revelations that do not mention Mary. St Catherine of Sienna describes the path as a Bridge.
From the dialogues of St Catherine:
“And so, wishing to remedy your great evils, I have given you the Bridge of My Son, in order that, passing across the flood, you may not be drowned, which flood is the tempestuous sea of this dark life.”…

…"This Bridge, taking its point of departure in you, rose into Heaven, and was the one road which was taught you by the example and life of the Truth…

…""Wherefore, first I gave you the Bridge of My Son living and conversing in very deed amongst men, and when He, the living Bridge, left you, there remained the Bridge and the road of His doctrine, as has been said, His doctrine being joined with My power and with His wisdom, and with the clemency of the Holy Spirit. This power of Mine gives the virtue of fortitude to whoever follows this road, wisdom gives him light, so that, in this road, he may recognize the truth, and the Holy Spirit gives him love, which consumes and takes away all sensitive love out of the soul, leaving there only the love of virtue…

I could provide much more for you about Jesus being the bridge…or you can read it for yourself HERE in the “Treatise Of Discretion” beginning around section 7.
I would also note here that, just as you mention that de Montfort’s revelation came directly from Our Blessed Mother, St Catherine’s comes directly from the Father - it is written as direct, first person answers from God to questions asked by her. And nowhere in this revelation about the Bridge is mentioned the Blessed Mother being need to light the way or smooth the way or anything else.

So - how can anyone seriously describe this road, this way, this bridge which is Christ Himself as being, “shrouded in darkness and laced with cracks and brambles and (with) a highwayman ready to steal everything from you hiding in every nook and cranny”, as our friend Laudate Dominum" described it in an earlier post.

Now how should we fit this together Catherine and de Montfort??? Like this…
Mary is indeed of great benefit to her children as any Mother is. She wants nothing more than to bring us to Jesus. She points to Jesus and through devotion to Mary and through imitation of her discipleship one can avoid many pitfalls.
However…the same thing can be said for following Christ directly, which of course Mary does also and indeed is her purpose, (“Do whatever He tells you”).
So according to St Catherine, God has given us the Bridge which is Jesus Himself, and the Road, which is Christ’s example and His teachings and also the great gift of the Church with her doctrines built upon Jesus example. This road, this bridge, is light not dark. It is firmly and smoothly build, not craggy and full of brambles, and we are protected by none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

I hope that this might illustrate a bit more clearly why certain statements “push my buttons”.
I have dealt with a number of people interested in the Catholic faith and asking questions and they are easily confused about our Marion views. They are concerned by some of the things they read…especially things like were written earlier in the post that pushed my button.
I Love my Mother and I believe that she too is concerned that such comments and how they act as a deterrent to some who might otherwise enter the church. Therefore I am very careful in what I present to such people and how I present it to them. I stick to Church teaching and am very careful, to point out that other writings are NOT Church doctrine.
Once a person understands Mary’s role in the Church through Church doctrine, THEN they can be exposed to various private revelations, devotions etc as a part of their exploring and growing in the faith.

Sorry - I’m rambling again…

Peace
James

 

[TrueLight]

I would also note here that, just as you mention that de Montfort’s revelation came directly from Our Blessed Mother, St Catherine’s is written as direct, first person answers to her questions from none other than, “The Father”.
And nowhere in this revelation about the Bridge is mentioned the Blessed Mother being need to light the way or smooth the way or anything else.

James

And that’s the problem with quoting private revelation as if it is dogma. As I said earlier, St Teresa and St Maria Faustina also have conversations with Jesus, but I would not judge someone, who doesn’t particularly believe those revelations, as not obeying Jesus himself, if they don’t follow those revelations.

By the way, I am currently reading about the “bridge”. Awesome stuff.

 

[Marie5890]

Historical perspective on the origins of the Rosary for those who are interested .

newadvent.org/cathen/13184b.htm

 

[JRKH]

And that’s the problem with quoting private revelation as if it is dogma. As I said earlier, St Teresa and St Maria Faustina also have conversations with Jesus, but I would not judge someone, who doesn’t particularly believe those revelations, as not obeying Jesus himself, if they don’t follow those revelations.

Indeed. We always need to be careful in these matters.

By the way, I am currently reading about the “bridge”. Awesome stuff.

Yes - Glad you like it. the Dialogues can be tough to read, but they are wonderful too. Everything I’ve read in them has been like - "YES!!! That makes perfect sense!!!

Peace
James

 

[TrueLight]

Indeed. We always need to be careful in these matters.

Yes - Glad you like it. the Dialogues can be tough to read, but they are wonderful too. Everything I’ve read in them has been like - "YES!!! That makes perfect sense!!!

Peace
James

Jwinch2 recommended that I start with Catherine of Siena: Spiritual Development in Her Life and Teaching, which I think was a good idea because the author keeps saying stuff like, “It may seem this sections contradicts this one.” LOL. So I have a feeling it may have been confusing if I started with the Dialogues itself.

 

[JRKH]

Jwinch2 recommended that I start with Catherine of Siena: Spiritual Development in Her Life and Teaching, which I think was a good idea because the author keeps saying stuff like, “It may seem this sections contradicts this one.” LOL. So I have a feeling it may have been confusing if I started with the Dialogues itself.

Looks like an excellent book. I might have to look into getting it…maybe…after I read the books I haven’t finished (or started) yet…

I was introduced to Catherine through reading the book listed in my signature which also introduced me to the writings of such greats as Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Bernard of Clarvioux(sp), Francis de Sales and John of the Cross.
ALL mystics and Doctors of The Church…

Peace
James

 

[TrueLight]

Looks like an excellent book. I might have to look into getting it…maybe…after I read the books I haven’t finished (or started) yet…

I was introduced to Catherine through reading the book listed in my signature which also introduced me to the writings of such greats as Teresa of Avila, Therese of Lisieux, Bernard of Clarvioux(sp), Francis de Sales and John of the Cross.
ALL mystics and Doctors of The Church…

Peace
James

Looks awesome. I have a thing for mysticism.

 

[JRKH]

Looks awesome. I have a thing for mysticism.

Then you would love this book. Well written, easy to read (and re-read) and some excellent reviews including one by Fr Groeshel(sp?).

Peace
James

 

[A_Catholic]

Yes A Catholic…I believe it is good to “quote the experts”. That is why I try to stick to the Documented teachings of the Church on such matters.

You are partly right in that the writings you quoted by St. Louis Marie de Montfort are troubling to me. Thankfully, since they come under the heading of private revelation, I am not bound by them.

Anything I would post here would just be repeating myself. But taking that risk, I will post this from Blessed John Paul II;

*Almost 11 years ago, on 21 June 1997, the Servant of God John Paul II addressed a Message to the Superiors General of the Montfort Religious Families for the 50th anniversary of the canonization of St Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort.

“I am happy”, he wrote, “to offer thanks to the Lord for the growing influence of this missionary Saint, whose apostolate was nourished by a life of intense prayer, an unshakeable faith in the Triune God and a deep devotion to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Redeemer” (Message, L’Osservatore Romano English edition [ORE], 30 July 1997, p. 3).

Thus, after describing de Montfort’s Christocentric tone of Marian spirituality, John Paul II said: “In order to know the Eternal Wisdom, uncreated and incarnate, Grignion de Montfort constantly invited people to put their trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is so inseparable from Jesus ‘that it would be easier to separate light from the sun’. He remains an incomparable bard and disciple of the Mother of the Saviour, whom he honours as the one who so assuredly leads towards Christ” (ibid.).

In a long conversation with Pope Wojtyła, published under the title: “André Frossard dialoga con Giovanni Paolo II: Non abbiate paura!” [André Frossard talks with John Paul II: “Do not be afraid”] (Rusconi, 1983), the French journalist asked the Holy Father about his personal devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The great Pope’s answer can be found on pages 157-159: “Reading that book (True Devotion to Mary)”, he said, "has marked a decisive turning point in my life. I said ‘turning point’, although this is a long inner journey… At that very moment this unique treatise came into my hands, one of those books which it is not enough ‘to have read’. I reread it constantly and certain passages in succession.

“I soon realized that the book contained something fundamental over and above its baroque style. The result was that the devotion to the Mother of Christ of my childhood and my adolescence gave way to a new attitude, a devotion that welled up from the depths of my faith, as at the very heart of the Trinitarian and Christological reality”.*

Just because St. Catherine does not mention Mary in your quotes does not mean she did not have great devotion to the Blessed Mother. After all, she was a Dominican, the order founded by St. Dominic, who was given the Rosary by our Blessed Mother. You can read a very enlightening article about St. Catherine’s devotion to Mary here.

Mary is completely and totally at one with her son. Anything we give to Mary goes directly to Christ. The ultimate end of devotion to Mary is devotion and worship of her Son. St. Louis says the reason Mary is the easiest road to Christ is because she is his mother. He chose her as his temple and tabernacle. She was the true Garden of Eden in which the true Tree of Life (Christ) was planted. If Christ chose to be one with Mary and come to us in that way, why wouldn’t we go to him through Mary? Mary was created perfectly, without spot or wrinkle or stain of sin. She is God’s greatest creation, greater than all other creation put together.

One of Christ’s last acts on the cross was to give His Beloved Mother to us to be our mother, this most perfect of all of His Creation. St Louis says whoever does not have Mary as his mother does not have God as his father. To try to go to Christ by any way other than Mary is to take a hard, bumpy road and it is full of pitfalls. Why would you want to do that when you don’t have to? That is what Laudate Dominum was saying. I hope you can eventually come to understand that. There is a reason why all the great saints had devotion to Mary. I hope you too will find that one day.

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Private Revelation? Saint Louis was never known as a mystic, I don’t believe he was ever graced with visions of Our Lord and Lady. The devotion he sets out in his work and in his life is based on all two thousand years of Church history. On the basis of Scripture and Tradition and the beliefs and teachings of the greatest philosophers, theologians and Popes, and yes thousands of approved mystics who have consistently laid out the same message, he sets out true Marian devotion.

Of course, Saint Louis himself was writing for simple people. He doesn’t quote too much from the Church Fathers, etc., if you want that, look to Saint Alphonsus. His work, the Glories of Mary, is abound with references to the sayings and teachings of the great men of the Church, going all the way back to antiquity.

Saint Louis’s teachings are completely in line with Church teaching. Otherwise he would not be a canonised saint and would not be being proposed as a Doctor of the Church. His teachings on Mary are the teachings of the Church, not his own. That Our Lady is the Mediatrix of All Graces and Co-Redemptrix and is the golden path with which Our Lord Himself tread in coming to us, honestly, what better way to God to Him than through her?

It just doesn’t make any sense. Why would someone not rely on Our Lady? Does not Holy Mother Church call her our life and our hope?

Yea, it’s not impossible for one to reach heaven without Our Lady’s help. It’s just a whole lot harder and very unnecessary. Yes, God will be with you… but why make it harder?

Name one saint that did not have a tender devotion to Our Lady! Name one sinner who was not converted when he cried out for assistance and greeted her with the Angelic words that announced to her her divine motherhood!

Why are people so averse to Our Lady? How can one say there can be any better or easier way to get to Our Lord than through His own Mother?

 

[A_Catholic]

Thank you for your beautiful post,. Laudate Dominum. It does blow my mind a little that we are having an argument about devotion to our Blessed Lady on a Catholic forum. As you say, this is not about private revelation but about Catholic church teaching on devotion to Mary and why it is so important. It is somewhat disconcerting that there are Catholics who find fault with this. Devotion to Mary is Catholic dogma. The Church has assigned many different days to her, and even whole months - May and October. We might as well be questioning communion of the saints and the seven sacraments. No saint or pope has ever questioned devotion to Mary but to the contrary, has wholeheartedly supported and promoted it.

Going back to the experts: I quote here from St. Louis Marie de Monfort from The Secret of Mary:

*Since Mary produced the head of the elect, Jesus Christ, she must also produce the members of that head, that is, all true Christians. A mother does not conceive a head without members, nor members without a head. If anyone, then, wishes to become a member of Jesus Christ, and consequently be filled with grace and truth , he must be formed in Mary through the grace of Jesus Christ, which she possesses with a fullness enabling her to communicate it abundantly to true members of Jesus Christ, her true children.

The Holy Spirit espoused Mary and produced his greatest work, the incarnate Word, in her, by her and through her. He has never disowned her and so he continues to produce every day, in a mysterious but very real manner, the souls of the elect in her and through her.

Mary received from God a unique dominion over souls enabling her to nourish them and make them more and more godlike. St Augustine went so far as to say that even in this world all the elect are enclosed in the womb of Mary, and that their real birthday is when this good mother brings them forth to eternal life. Consequently, just as an infant draws all its nourishment from its mother, who gives according to its needs, so the elect draw their spiritual nourishment and all their strength from Mary.*

Sadly, I know there are Catholics who, to their own detriment, will fight this beautiful writing of
St. Louis. Although our Lord himself chose Mary as the way to come to this world, too many will reject her, his Beloved Mother, who is competely at one with His Will and to whom he would deny nothing, as the way to Him.

There is one other passage I would like to quote from St. Louis on why it is so much better to follow devotion to Mary as a way to follow Christ, which is also from The Secret of Mary:

***Mary is the great mould of God, **fashioned by the Holy Spirit to give human nature to a Man who is God by the hypostatic union, and to fashion through grace men who are like to God. No godly feature is missing from this mould. Everyone who casts himself into it and allows himself to be moulded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ, true God, with little pain or effort, as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus with no possibility of distortion, for the devil has never had and never will have any access to Mary, the holy and immaculate Virgin, in whom there is not the least suspicion of a stain of sin.

Dear friend, what a difference there is between a soul brought up in the ordinary way to resemble Jesus Christ by people who, like sculptors, rely on their own skill and industry, and a soul thoroughly tractable, entirely detached, most ready to be moulded in her by the working of the Holy Spirit. What blemishes and defects, what shadows and distortions, what natural and human imperfections are found in the first soul, and what a faithful and divine likeness to Jesus is found in the second!*

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[Sirach2]

It does blow my mind a little that we are having an argument about devotion to our Blessed Lady on a Catholic forum.

:ehh: You could’ve fooled me. I thought the argument was whether or not one should pray the rosary daily, which morphed into the insistence that one MUST pray the rosary, almost as a requirement for salvation … which morphed into … unless you pray it, you aren’t a devotee of Mary, and walk a slippery slope.

 

[TrueLight]

:ehh: You could’ve fooled me. I thought the argument was whether or not one should pray the rosary daily, which morphed into the insistence that one MUST pray the rosary, almost as a requirement for salvation … which morphed into … unless you pray it, you aren’t a devotee of Mary, and walk a slippery slope.

Hi Sirach,

Nice summary of how this thread has devolved.

And this is what happens when you have judgmental responses.

No one is going to convince me it is harder for EVERYONE to get to heaven without saying the Rosary daily. Like I said before, it may be harder for some people if this is your primary way of praying, but not for everyone.

I’m sure St Teresa had a wonderful devotion to our lady, and I’m sure she said the Rosary, but so far in all her writings I have read so far, her focus is not on saying the Rosary, but in spending time in mental prayer.

Now if mental prayer for you only means saying the Rosary, great! If the only time you spend reflecting on our Lord and his passion, is when you say the Rosary and you stop saying it, it may very well mean a harder road for you to be saved.

 

[JRKH]

My Dear Friends,
Why is it assumed that, because one speaks of the rosary NOT being required, they are, “averse to Our Lady”, as Laudate so clearly expresses above?

If I have - in any of my posts - expressed even one negative sentiment about Our Lady, minimized her or denied her rightful place in the economy of salvation, please point it out to me. I will be more than happy to apologize, recant, revise, clarify or otherwise adjust my position and the understanding between us.

A Catholic, I thank you for the link to the article on St Catherine’s Marion devotion. I found it to be most useful, especially in how it continually points to Christ. I also like the quotes from Our Blessed JPII. You will be pleased to know that I take great joy in reading such things and adding my own Love of our Mother to theirs.

The problem however, and the cause of my distress, does not spring from some “aversion” toward Mary. Rather, it comes from something else, quite specific and clearly expressed, and yet ignored by both A Catholic and Laudate in your replies to me. That concern is with how Laudate described the road for anyone NOT Led by Mary herself.

Perhaps it would help if I explained a bit of my own spiritual Journey…
Though I was raised Catholic, I left the Church before I was 20. In my time away from the Church I read the Gospels talked and debated with different people, read catholic and non-catholic authors and learned a bit about Far Eastern faiths and concepts. Through all of this (some 35 years) I developed a wonderful relationship with Christ as my Brother and God as my Father, based and built primarily on the Gospels.

Then through a wonderful and completely undeserved grace, I was able to return Home to the Church. In so doing I found no necessity to change my relationship with the Father or with my Brother and King, Christ Jesus. I DID begin to renew my relationship with our Lady who I Love and appreciate very much.
However - and I think this might apply as well to some who are looking to convert - Since Mary points to Christ, and since I had already developed a relationship in, with and through Christ to the Father (praying as Jesus taught us), I never felt the need for a deep, Marion devotion as it is expressed by some here.
I know that some converts from protestantism feel the same way. They have built their Christian identity on their relationship is Christ, the one to whom Mary points. Why should they, or I, or anyone feel the need to change that direct relationship in order to go “through” someone else.
Now that might not make sense to you, but it certainly does to me…and that is why our spiritual journeys are different.

However - and getting back to my point - When someone writes something like Laudate wrote earlier…
We have a choice between two routes to Heaven.

One is paved in gold, with a cool sun, neither too hot nor too cold, with regular rest stations on the way. You don’t even have to walk. You just need to sit back and let Our Lady lead you.

The other is shrouded in darkness and laced with cracks and brambles and had a highwayman ready to steal everything from you hiding in every nook and cranny. By God’s great mercy yes you can fumble your way, blind and alone, on this path.

On the other you can enjoy the comfort of His Mother, the same Mother whom He gave to us as our Advocate and Mediatrix from the very Altar of the Cross its self.
I take issue because,
a) There are not two routes to heaven. There is one and that route is with, through and in Christ. Jesus and Mary affirm this through Church teaching which states that Mary points to Christ.
b) To describe any path spirituality not led by Mary in the manner described above is simply not true…
Consider -
If a person has Christ in His heart, and is led by Jesus, do you really believe that their way is shrouded in darkness? - Full of cracks and brambles? With robbers in every nook and cranny? Do you really believe that a path - led by Christ, His word, His Love, and the Father’s grace means fumbling along blind and alone???

So - I invite others to address this. The assumption that Christ’s leadership is somehow deficient to Mary’s leadership.

Peace
James

 

[Laudate_Dominum]

Why should they, or I, or anyone feel the need to change that direct relationship in order to go “through” someone else?

But can you not see it JRKH? Christ is your brother because of Mary. It is through Mary that Christ has assumed our humanity to Himself. It is through Mary that He has taken our flesh and our nature.

The direct relationship with Christ is already coming through the Immaculate Heart of Mary! This is simply unavoidable because Christ ordained this to be so when He became Incarnate in her sacred womb!

 

[A_Catholic]

:ehh: You could’ve fooled me. I thought the argument was whether or not one should pray the rosary daily, which morphed into the insistence that one MUST pray the rosary, almost as a requirement for salvation … which morphed into … unless you pray it, you aren’t a devotee of Mary, and walk a slippery slope.

Have you been reading this thread?

 

[JRKH]

Why should they, or I, or anyone feel the need to change that direct relationship in order to go “through” someone else?

Not an adequate answer.
I also have an earthly Mother and an older brother. I have a direct relationship with both. Should I change that and constantly go through my mother in order to talk to my older brother, to ask his advice or to follow his leadership because “Joe” is my brother because of our mom??
You’ve explained the principle of how we are related in the Holy Family of God, but you did not answer the question that you seem to be trying to address…

I also note that you continue to ignore the question/concern that I specifically ASKED you to address in my post above.

Peace
James

 

[A_Catholic]

However - and I think this might apply as well to some who are looking to convert - Since Mary points to Christ, and since I had already developed a relationship in, with and through Christ to the Father (praying as Jesus taught us), I never felt the need for a deep, Marion devotion as it is expressed by some here.
I know that some converts from protestantism feel the same way. They have built their Christian identity on their relationship is Christ, the one to whom Mary points. Why should they, or I, or anyone feel the need to change that direct relationship in order to go “through” someone else.
Now that might not make sense to you, but it certainly does to me…and that is why our spiritual journeys are different.

However - and getting back to my point - When someone writes something like Laudate wrote earlier…
We have a choice between two routes to Heaven.

One is paved in gold, with a cool sun, neither too hot nor too cold, with regular rest stations on the way. You don’t even have to walk. You just need to sit back and let Our Lady lead you.

The other is shrouded in darkness and laced with cracks and brambles and had a highwayman ready to steal everything from you hiding in every nook and cranny. By God’s great mercy yes you can fumble your way, blind and alone, on this path.

On the other you can enjoy the comfort of His Mother, the same Mother whom He gave to us as our Advocate and Mediatrix from the very Altar of the Cross its self.
I take issue because,
a) There are not two routes to heaven. There is one and that route is with, through and in Christ. Jesus and Mary affirm this through Church teaching which states that Mary points to Christ.
b) To describe any path spirituality not led by Mary in the manner described above is simply not true…
Consider -
If a person has Christ in His heart, and is led by Jesus, do you really believe that their way is shrouded in darkness? - Full of cracks and brambles? With robbers in every nook and cranny? Do you really believe that a path - led by Christ, His word, His Love, and the Father’s grace means fumbling along blind and alone???

So - I invite others to address this. The assumption that Christ’s leadership is somehow deficient to Mary’s leadership.

Peace
James

Did you read the quotes from St. Louis Marie de Montfort? Have you read the other quotes I have posted here from the popes and the saints? They are all in agreement with Laudate.

I think you are misunderstanding a major point. Christ is our advocate with the Father. It is in him, through him and with him that we come to the Father. It is his Sacrifice that we offer to the Father to appease for our sins. Mary is our advocate to Christ. Christ came to us through Mary. And as St. Louis says, it is through her that we go to Christ. Mary is a conduit to salvation - Christ is that salvation. Mary is called co-redemptrix because she was a part of Christ’s saving sacrifice from the moment he was conceived. It was her “Yes” that gave us Christ. Christ could have chosen any way he wanted to come to us, but he chose Mary. Mary suffered with him in a way that no one ever has. Just as Abraham offered Isaac on Mt. Sinai, Mary offered Christ on Calvary to the Father. She was formed completely and perfectly in Christ. If we are formed in her, we will also be formed perfectly in Christ. With Mary, nothing is about her. It is all about her Son. That is why she is our perfect advocate with Christ. When you go to Mary, you go to Christ. She will never fail to lead you to her Son. We can never be sure of that when we try to do it on our own.

When we are at Mass, we are at the foot of the Cross with Mary. That is a major reason why the Protestants do not have devotion to Mary. They do not have the Eucharist.

I do hope you will give some thought and prayer to this. We have been given a great gift in Mary, as all the saints will testify to. Why not take this wonderful gift given to us by Christ as he was dying on the Cross?