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tstadheim
Guest
During Mass, during prayer time after receiving communion?
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Fauken
Guest
No. The Liturgy of the Hours should not be prayed when the most important liturgy of all, the Mass, is going on.
After Mass is concluded, most certainly, but not before the end of Mass for the reason mentioned above.
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OraLabora
Guest
The Mass is the summit of the Church’s liturgy, of which the Divine Office is of course a part of.
There are rubrics to combine one of the Offices (except the Office of Readings in most cases) with the Mass. That is licit. But that is for the celebrant or community to decide, following the rubrics.
But to simply pray an Office individually during Mass would, IMHO be doing injury to the liturgy as a whole.
On the other hand arriving for Mass early and praying it before Mass… or staying after Mass to pray an Office, is just fine.
There are rubrics to combine one of the Offices (except the Office of Readings in most cases) with the Mass. That is licit. But that is for the celebrant or community to decide, following the rubrics.
But to simply pray an Office individually during Mass would, IMHO be doing injury to the liturgy as a whole.
On the other hand arriving for Mass early and praying it before Mass… or staying after Mass to pray an Office, is just fine.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
You could pray a psalm during that time, taken from the Liturgy of the day. Or any prayer you wish. As the previous poster states, the Liturgy of the Hours is in itself a Liturgy. It is not as strictly regulated for non religious, or third orders with their own rule. Laity can pray any or all of the Liturgy of the Hours. Laity are part of the Assembly in the Mass, the Body of the Church, and must assist at the Mass with full and active participation in all its Liturgy.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
You’re not supposed to pray other prayers during Mass. The exception might be if you had already been to Mass or were going later, and happened to be in a cathedral or church where you wished to do a private devotion rather than join in the Mass. Many churches or shrines I visit on pilgrimage are large and have Masses, sometimes in different languages or for different groups, going on all day. If I have not come to attend that particular Mass and like I said I have been to Mass or are going later, I can sit in a quiet corner and pray my own prayer rather than participate in that Mass.
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Margaret_Ann
Guest
After receiving Our Lord in Holy Communion, one should make a good thanksgiving. The best time to ask Our Lord for graces is when He is within you.
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DeniseNY
Guest
Why do you want to do this?
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tstadheim
Guest
No good reason. I just ran out of things I wanted to pray about and felt a few of the psalms from Sext would be fitting. From now on I’ll just be internally silent and contemplative in that situation.
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phil19034
Guest
The only time you should pray the Divine Office during Mass is when you are still sitting their praying the Divine Office after Mass and the next Mass starts.
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phil19034
Guest
This. St. Zelie Martin used to do this with the Rosary. She would attend mass and then after mass was over start praying the Rosary and her other prayers while the next Mass was starting and being prayed.
She would wind up sitting for two Masses each Sunday. The first to pray the mass, and the second Mass for her devotions.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
It is fine to pray Psalms during post communion. Find some rejoicing Psalms that praise and thank God.
This is still questionable as we are meant to engage in the Mass with full and active participation.
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phil19034
Guest
No, if you are in a big Church, like a Cathedral or large suburban church, there is no reason you can’t be in there praying another devotion during mass IF you have already been to mass that day.
However, prudence tells us that it most likely isn’t wise to do it while sitting in the middle of the nave. Would be best to be sitting in the back, a side chapel, narthex, etc so you are not distracting others at mass.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
If the Mass is on, our participation is required. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Pinnacle of our Catholicism.
Look at the crowds and area of Papal Masses, distance and numbers, yet the Mass reaches those front and centre and at its fringes.
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phil19034
Guest
A Papal Mass has nothing to do with this. Why would anyone attend a Papal Mass and not be there for Mass. That’s not a good argument.phil19034:
If the Mass is on, our participation is required. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Pinnacle of our Catholicism.
Look at the crowds and area of Papal Masses, distance and numbers, yet the Mass reaches those front and centre and at its fringes.
There are plenty of larger churches that have devotional side altars, shrines, etc where you can be in the same physical room as a mass, yet still quietly take part in a devotion IF you have already attended mass that day.
For example: let’s say you are at the St Patrick’s Cathedral in NYC or the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception. You arrive for confession but a mass is going on at the same time. You don’t have to participate in Mass if you have no Obligation. However, you should still stand for the Gospel and kneel during the consecration and when the Blessed Sacarment is exposed.
It’s the same thing if you stay after mass to pray and are still praying when the next mass starts. You don’t have to stop your devotion because a 2nd Mass as started. But you should still stand and kneel when everyone does.
If this isn’t OK, then the Basilica Shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe would have major issues because they have masses going on there all the time. And what about when priests used to pray mass on side altars in Cathedrals. Pilgrimages in the Cathedrals didn’t have to stop their devotions and quiet prayer every time another priest would pray a private mass.
Finally, if this was a practice that a Saint did EVERY Sunday, then who’ve are we to say it’s wrong. After all, this is a Saint who was married to a Saint, her youngest daughter is a Saint and Doctor of the Church, and all of her other children who made it to adulthood were all nuns. One of the Martin sisters (Léonie Martin, Sister Françoise-Thérèse) is currently a Servant of God and will most likely become a Venerable this winter. The other sisters are also in the process of potentially being beatified too.
So I cannot write off the practice of a Saint producing Saint like St Zelie
God Bless
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
I read your argument as space and numbers i.e. in a large cathedral where a Mass is going on but you can sit in this large Cathedral and also do devotions instead of participating in the Mass if it is the second Mass you attend.
Now lets go to the Catechism.
Firstly we can receive the Eucharist a second time in a day providing it is at a Mass.
Secondly Catechism states we must engage in full and active participation in the Mass. It does not state well if you have been to one Mass, no need to do it at a second Mass. It states full and active participation at Mass.
And as we know Mass takes us out of time to be at the foot of the Cross during the Holy Sacrifice of Christ to His Father and our father, God.
This saint also lived before the days of the OF Mass and the Catechism that states we need full and active participation in the Mass.
We are not an either/or Church. We are obliged to be obedient to the Magisterium. Full and Active Participation in the Mass.
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phil19034
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OK, we will have to agree to disagree. The Catechism was written with the intention that a person was only present for one mass, not present for multiple masses.phil19034:
I read your argument as space and numbers i.e. in a large cathedral where a Mass is going on but you can sit in this large Cathedral and also do devotions instead of participating in the Mass if it is the second Mass you attend.
Now lets go to the Catechism.
Firstly we can receive the Eucharist a second time in a day providing it is at a Mass.
Secondly Catechism states we must engage in full and active participation in the Mass. It does not state well if you have been to one Mass, no need to do it at a second Mass. It states full and active participation at Mass.
And as we know Mass takes us out of time to be at the foot of the Cross during the Holy Sacrifice of Christ to His Father and our father, God.
Again, if what you are saying is true, then it would be improper to have confessions being heard during Mass. It’s not, Cathedrals do it all the time.
Also, if what you say is true, then Cathedrals & shrines would not allow people to look at and pray at side altars and shrines during mass. People can…
Finally: I am NOT necessarily recommending this practice. But I am saying that a canonized Saint did it every Sunday. And she’s not just any old Saint… her husband is a Saint, her daughter is a Doctor of the Church, another daughter is a Servant of God (soon to be Venerable), and the three other daughters were all Carmelite Nuns with their Saintly sister.
So if Saints could do it throughout the ages, then so can we (provided that we have already participated at Mass at least once that day).
This doesn’t matter. People were ALWAYS supposed to participate & pray the Mass. That wasn’t something new at Vatican II. It was simply reiterated & focused on.
I think though you are failing to grasp one key thing I’m saying. The person is NOT attending two masses. They are attending one. Then, they start their prayers after mass is over and simply do not finish before the next mass begins. In my scenario, they are not purposefully attending the 2nd mass just to pray devotions. The mass begins before their personal pray is over.
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
I will repost what I just posted.
This saint lived before the OF mass and the Catechism of full and active participation in the Mass. We are obliged to be obedient to the Magisterium. That means full and active participation in the Mass. If we are in a Church and a Mass is going on, If we are outside at a Papal Mass for instance, we are required to give full and active participation in the celebration of that Mass as the body of the church.
Saints and sinners who did this before the OF Mass. in the days of the EF latin Mass, who were accustomed to praying rosaries, etc, as compared to today and the Magisterium saying full and active participation is required, it is a very different way of celebrating the Mass.
Readers of this thread must realise what full and active participation in the Mass means. Catholics must have an understanding they are the body of the church and have duties when at Mass or in a Cathedral a Mass is being celebrated.
This saint lived before the OF mass and the Catechism of full and active participation in the Mass. We are obliged to be obedient to the Magisterium. That means full and active participation in the Mass. If we are in a Church and a Mass is going on, If we are outside at a Papal Mass for instance, we are required to give full and active participation in the celebration of that Mass as the body of the church.
Saints and sinners who did this before the OF Mass. in the days of the EF latin Mass, who were accustomed to praying rosaries, etc, as compared to today and the Magisterium saying full and active participation is required, it is a very different way of celebrating the Mass.
Readers of this thread must realise what full and active participation in the Mass means. Catholics must have an understanding they are the body of the church and have duties when at Mass or in a Cathedral a Mass is being celebrated.
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phil19034
Guest
so what about Confession during mass?
And again, I don’t know why you are bringing up a Papal Mass. If someone isn’t actively participating during a Papal Mass, they should be slapped across the back of their head.
Also, as far as praying the Rosary was concerned, they really were NOT supposed to be doing that. People who did typically didn’t have a missal and couldn’t hear or understand what was going on. The idea was that it was better to pray the Rosary during mass than daydream. But if they had a missal, they should have been actively participating and not praying their Rosary.
This is what St. Zelie did. She prayed the mass (aka active participation). Then, after mass she prayed her Rosary. The next mass started before her Rosary was finished. She continued with her Rosay and then sat in adoration during the rest of the 2nd Mass, and united additional prayers with the prayers of the priest at the Altar. So her active participation was there.
NOW - if it helps, I will say this: One should NOT sit down in a pew just as Mass is starting just to do devotions instead of the Mass. That was never my intent and not what I mean. I’m simply saying that one does not necessarily have to stop their personal prayer just because the next Mass is starting.
God Bless & Good night
And again, I don’t know why you are bringing up a Papal Mass. If someone isn’t actively participating during a Papal Mass, they should be slapped across the back of their head.
Also, as far as praying the Rosary was concerned, they really were NOT supposed to be doing that. People who did typically didn’t have a missal and couldn’t hear or understand what was going on. The idea was that it was better to pray the Rosary during mass than daydream. But if they had a missal, they should have been actively participating and not praying their Rosary.
This is what St. Zelie did. She prayed the mass (aka active participation). Then, after mass she prayed her Rosary. The next mass started before her Rosary was finished. She continued with her Rosay and then sat in adoration during the rest of the 2nd Mass, and united additional prayers with the prayers of the priest at the Altar. So her active participation was there.
NOW - if it helps, I will say this: One should NOT sit down in a pew just as Mass is starting just to do devotions instead of the Mass. That was never my intent and not what I mean. I’m simply saying that one does not necessarily have to stop their personal prayer just because the next Mass is starting.
God Bless & Good night
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OurLadyofSorrows
Guest
Different topic for a different thread but I ask you , does it meet the requirements of the catechism and the Magisterium for full and active participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?
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AlbertDerGrosse
Guest
I’d take it a step further and say the Catechism was written with the stipulation that a person was present for Mass, and not present for other devotions while a Mass just so happens to be celebrated in the same church while the person in question is tending to some other devotion. If you’re there for Mass, then pay attention to the Mass. If you’re there for the St. Jude shrine, or to light a candle at the Holy Name Altar, or just to pop in spontaneously to say a prayer and leave but a Mass is being celebrated concurrently, be respectful of the main celebration (the Mass) but discretely continue with the devotion that brought you there. As you mention:
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