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PaulDupre1
Guest
This.
What a good and humble man you are, James.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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What a good and humble man you are, James.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Indifferently
Guest
Itâs not sound advice to dissaude someone who claims to be a Christian from praying to his wifeâs idol or encouraging her to pray to her idol. There is only one God. Christians must pray with other Christians, worshipping in Spirit and in truth. There can be no indifferentism from the true God and false gods. There are innumerable times in the OT when the people are admonished for not giving proper respect to Yahwehâs exclusivity.
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Hans_W
Guest
Paul, I just love your advice of striving for clarity before agreement. Any kind of discussion should have that as a motto.My friend, if it was easy, then everyone would be doing it. Keep at it, and strive for clarity, not for agreement.
If you strive for clarity, that is, to truly understand one anotherâs beliefs and feelings without pressure to agree, it means that you trust that the Holy Spirit can do what He does best - convert the mind and heart.
I recommend that when you speak with one another about important things, you sit close together and hold hands. Trust me on this.
You just plant the seeds of clarity and understanding and let the Holy Spirit do His thing. It takes the burden off of you. Remember, Jesusâ yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). Part of that easy yoke and light burden is not trying to do what only God the Holy Spirit can do. Let it go and just love her like she deserves to be loved and trust God.
Your wife may never convert to Catholicism. But that is between her and God. Do not try to make yourself responsible for something you cannot control.
Concentrate on the day-to-day happiness of your marriage. THAT you CAN control. Be that believing husband that sanctifies his wife (1 Cor. 7:14) with your kindness, your respect and your trust in God. That is your sole duty and responsibility. Everything else is in Godâs hands.
God bless you, my friend in Christ.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
I have been familiar with the saying âseek first to understand before being understoodâ. It is similar, but not quite the same as your advice. How do you see the difference?
I trust that the initial poster benefited from your advice, in their marriage and their spiritual lives. I also like the idea somebody brought up of holding hands with your wife while praying. The physical contact greatly reinforces the togetherness.
That would also be good advice, in my opinion, for the lady with a non-believing husband. Hold hands with him while you are praying. You donât need to make it obvious that you are praying.
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JamesCollins
Guest
I donât know that I would be completely comfortable praying with people who belong to the Church of England according to the above since it is hard to know if a person who belongs to the Church of England is simply a Unitarian in sheepâs clothing. Most Mormons donât have enough understanding of theology to see a big difference. They are praying to the Father of Jesus in Jesusâ name. It is hard to know their heart.
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Z_Ninja
Guest
Iâm in a similar situation, where my wife is Mormon. We have younger children and they are generally the ones that say the prayers though they sometimes ask me to say them at bedtime. Paulâs advice is absolutely wonderful. I wondered the same thing before but now I go ahead and cross myself and say âAmenâ. Since we live with her parents, they have Family Home Evenings and I participate, and when discussing the lessons, I offer my Catholic perspective.
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dianaiad
Guest
I do love Paulâs response to this. It is truly one of the best posts Iâve read. Most of the posts on this thread have been along the same lines: show your wife respect, pray with her, and so forth. Good advice all the way around.
Of course, there is the oneâŚI think itâs just one but I could be wrongâŚwho figures that you absolutely should not pray with your wife because sheâs âworshiping the wrong godâ or something. Thereâs always one.
What I have NOT seenâŚand perhaps you might want to think about thisâŚis any surprise at all that your wife is willing to pray with you. After all, you are the one who changed; you are the one who left, and in her perspective, you haveâŚin a very real wayâŚdivorced and abandoned her. I know that you donât believe that, but SHE does. In her belief system, you may well have taken her family away from her; she wonât get to keep you, and her eternal future with you is gone. Thatâs pretty big, yâknow?
Again, it doesnât much matter that you donât think this is true; *she *does.
Yet she is willing to pray with you, and stay with you, and love youâŚeven though you may have, in a VERY real way, broken her heart.
âŚand nobody here seems a bit surprised that she is willing to pray with you and stay with you and love you.
So the next time you have a chance to pray with her, remember what Paul said, and remember what your wife thinks you have taken from herâŚand love her enough to respect her decisions even if you donât respect her beliefs.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Hurrah for Z_Ninja! God bless you, my brother in Christ!
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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aragonjohn1
Guest
yes, do pray.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
Indiferently,
Context is understanding. Remember that at that time there was only one Christian faith and those who denied the Son were pagans.
Since the reformation and the continued splintering of the Church, even the Catholic Church says that we cannot condemn as heretics those who were born into those faith traditions and follow them. They are our brothers and sisters in Christ by virtue of their Christian baptism.
Mormons are a different case. Their baptism is not valid, and their tradition is not an off-shoot of Christianity but an altogether different religion. They do have a belief in Jesus, although one that is so flawed as to be nearly unrecognizable were it not for the Name.
Even so, we must treat all of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters with respect as is their due as children of God created in His image. Saint Paul taught:
What St. Paul means here is that you meet each person where he/she stands right now and respect them and be an example to them and teach them when you can, so that maybe you might save some. You wonât save them all, but if you approach them on their own turf, understanding their own perspective, and bring the gospel to them on their own terms and in their own language as best you can, then you may eventually win some of them to Our Lord.
If Paul had stood there and told all these people who didnât know Jesus that if they didnât accept Jesus as God they would burn in hell, how many converts do you think he would have won?
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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dolphinlove
Guest
This is why I keep coming back here after 10 years, the wonderful & intelligent response from people here, God bless you Paul xFirst of all, respect is the single most important thing in any relationship, be it friend or co-worker or spouse.
You MUST show respect to your wife at all times. It is okay to let her know (in a gentle way) that you disagree with her choice of religion, but stress that you respect HER, and HER BELIEFS and HER REASONS for those beliefs.
If your wife thinks you donât respect her:
Remember that your wife is a child of God, and therefore beloved by Him, so she deserves your respect.
- Your relationship will erode to the point where it is irrepairable.
- She will never take your beliefs seriously because she will see your beliefs as the source of your disrespect.
- She will not respect your views, so she will not listen to anything you say.
Respect is the one thing everyone craves. Give a person some respect and (s)he will be yours forever. If she is ever going to listen to you about what you believe (NOT what you demand that she believe) you will need to have a loving and trusting relationship wherein you can discuss things in a friendly and non-threatening way.
And even if your wife never embraces Catholicism, if you show her the proper kindness and respect you will have a happy and fulfilling marriage despite your religious differences.
Resolve to do some little kindness for her every day. Expect no compensation from her. Just do it because you love her. This is not a prescription for converting someone - this is the basic necessity for a loving marriage.
Here is the easiest and best way to have respectful relationships with your wife and others around you:
DO NOT strive for agreement with your wife; strive for CLARITY. That is, donât try to get her to agree with you, just try to really understand what she thinks and believes (listen to her attentively and donât interrupt). This is the thing that women want most from men and the thing that most men are clueless about. If you really listen to her (no matter how long it takes) and donât interrupt, this alone will improve your marriage 1000%.
And try to communicate to her, softly and gently (after she is finished talking - you havenât interrupted, right?), what you believe and why. In the beginning keep it short and simple - she will probably be in shock because you actually listened to her like she wished you would all these years.
You will be shocked at the turn-around in your relationship once your wife realizes that you are not trying to get her to agree with you; you are really trying to understand her and trying to get her to understand you. That is all. Nothing more.
Like my sig says, I prefer clarity to agreement. This has been the one thing that has turned around my relationships, my career and my life in general. I invite you to give it the 30-day trial. Trust me, you will never go back.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Estevao
Guest
Hey Paul, do you have a mormon wife? If I had a mormon wife I would be very concerned about her immortal soul, and I would have no way of being sure that she could go to heaven. The normative way to go to heaven is being a Catholic. I donât think itâs loving to allow oneâs spouse to remain in a false religion out of indifferentism. I donât think itâs a husbandly thing to do as such: âAnd even if your wife never embraces Catholicism, if you show her the proper kindness and respect you will have a happy and fulfilling marriage despite your religious differences.â Why not say that God has put the Catholic husband in the mormon wifeâs life to bring her out of her false religion and idolatry and to a saving relationship with the one true God?
If oneâs wife cannot see that a Catholic is acting out of love in trying to get her to leave a false religion, then whatever ârelationshipâ one has would be rather shallow IMO.
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Miriam1947
Guest
One of my customers brought his Mormon wife into my Catholic bookstore to buy a Catholic Bible.
They have been married for 37 years and she finally decided to go to RCIA and convert.
As far as I could see he was not judgmental, arrogant or unkind to her in any way throughout the years.
Some of the posters here would have sent me running from the CC just by their sanctimonious attitudes.
Glad I didnât meet them on my journey into the CC.
They have been married for 37 years and she finally decided to go to RCIA and convert.
As far as I could see he was not judgmental, arrogant or unkind to her in any way throughout the years.
Some of the posters here would have sent me running from the CC just by their sanctimonious attitudes.
Glad I didnât meet them on my journey into the CC.
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dianaiad
Guest
MiriamâŚ
OK, Iâm a âMormon wife.â I had a âMormon husband.â He died twenty years ago last SaturdayâŚand of last Saturday, I became officially a widow longer than I was married. However, my beliefs (and my conviction) tell me that I am still very much married to him. When I die, I will still have him, as husband, as I will still have ties to my children, AS my children. They, in turn, will be able to eternally with their spouses and children.
I know that you, as a Catholic, do not believe this, and Iâm not asking you to. I AM asking those who are urging this man to be disrespectful of his wifeâs beliefs, and to actively harass her (and that is what they are doing) into changing her beliefs, to THINK a moment.
As I wrote before, sheâŚas do IâŚbelieves that marriages can be eternal. What this man has done, in her view, is to divorce her. He left herâŚthat he stays with her at all now, though still a marriage in the eyes of the law and of God in the mortal sense, is no longer the marriage she expected, and the marriage he promised her.
Again, it doesnât matter what he thinks. SHE believes thisâŚand still she stays with him. She stays with him even though he treats her with contempt; making noise and being disrespectful during her prayers, mocking and denigrating the beliefs they both once shared.
I wouldnât have been that understanding.
Oh, I would have stayed with him, and loved him through his personal search for religious truth. I would support him, and hope that eventually he would âsee the lightâ and come back. I would not, however, be disrespectful of his new beliefs. I would go to Mass with him. I would join with him in his religious life. I would pray with him, and study with him.
But if he acted toward me as the guy in the OP acted towards his wife, and the way others here have urged him to act?
Heâd be gone, and it would be a big project for him to come back, assuming that Iâd allow it. I might not.
âŚand no, I wouldnât divorce him. As a Catholic, I understand that he MIGHT be able to get an annulment because he married âwrongâ in the first place. Iâm not sure about that. He might notâŚbut heâd have to do all the work and trust me, it would be work.
Again, I honor and respect his wife for being who she is, and putting up with that level of sheer contempt and disrespect.
I wouldnât have. My flaw, I knowâŚbut I would not have.
âŚand if he did that to me, you can be absolutely assured that if I ever left Mormonism, Catholicism would be the LAST place I would look for solace.
And that would be on his head, wouldnât it?
Diana, just interjecting a POV that, perhaps, might be worth a look.
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iepuras
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Diana, only one poster has encouraged Shuttlepiper to not pray with his Mormon wife. One. Everyone else has encouraged him to pray with her and to be loving, kind and respectful.
I read Shuttlepiperâs other posts and his wife is not guiltless in their marital problems. It takes two to tango. They both need to improve their treatment of each other. They both need counseling. At least Shuttlepiper is asking for advice and seeking help during this difficult time. I hope his wife also seeks help and wants to keep their marriage together.
Also, please remember, before condemning the OP and assuming that he is always the âbad guyâ and the one who is changing everything and destroying âherâ marriage, that he is an equal partner in the marriage and his opinion matters too. The OP also struggles with mental illness. Even good days can be a struggle. Mental illness doesnât give him a pass to behave badly, but we and his wife should be sensitive to that fact and be more charitable.
Since when are spouses in a marriage not expected to change? People change even in a marriage. I have only been married six years but both of us have changed over those six years. When I was suffering from depression and not a very nice person, my husband didnât whine or complain about me changing. I even walked away from him because I couldnât handle it anymore. He didnât get upset with me. He loved me and took care of me. We got through it and have a stronger marriage for it.
Marriage is about commitment and no longer having an âeternal marriageâ doesnât change that fact. Yes, she can mourn and grieve, but she needs to be committed and accept the OPâs commitment to their marriage regardless of whether or not it is âeternalâ. Shuttlepiperâs rejection of Mormonism does not mean he has rejected her. If she thinks this, she needs to work on that herself. Yes, it hurts her, but she needs to learn and adjust too. Shuttlepiper is not the only one who needs to work on the marriage. They BOTH do.
My husband left Mormonism with me. I was lucky. He was waiting for me, in fact. However, my parents reacted horribly. They took it very personal and considered my rejection of the LDS church as a rejection of them and our whole family. I tried really hard to show them how much I love them and that my leaving the LDS church didnât change the fact that they are my parents. The problem is that they refused to respect me and my husband as a couple and as parents to our children. They refused to respect boundaries and forced an estrangement. But of course, in their minds it was all our fault and we are the horrible apostates who are rejecting them.
My point is when it comes to marriage problems, it is quite rare that one of the spouses is guiltless. They both need to follow Paulâs wonderful advice and get some counseling if necessary.
I read Shuttlepiperâs other posts and his wife is not guiltless in their marital problems. It takes two to tango. They both need to improve their treatment of each other. They both need counseling. At least Shuttlepiper is asking for advice and seeking help during this difficult time. I hope his wife also seeks help and wants to keep their marriage together.
Also, please remember, before condemning the OP and assuming that he is always the âbad guyâ and the one who is changing everything and destroying âherâ marriage, that he is an equal partner in the marriage and his opinion matters too. The OP also struggles with mental illness. Even good days can be a struggle. Mental illness doesnât give him a pass to behave badly, but we and his wife should be sensitive to that fact and be more charitable.
Since when are spouses in a marriage not expected to change? People change even in a marriage. I have only been married six years but both of us have changed over those six years. When I was suffering from depression and not a very nice person, my husband didnât whine or complain about me changing. I even walked away from him because I couldnât handle it anymore. He didnât get upset with me. He loved me and took care of me. We got through it and have a stronger marriage for it.
Marriage is about commitment and no longer having an âeternal marriageâ doesnât change that fact. Yes, she can mourn and grieve, but she needs to be committed and accept the OPâs commitment to their marriage regardless of whether or not it is âeternalâ. Shuttlepiperâs rejection of Mormonism does not mean he has rejected her. If she thinks this, she needs to work on that herself. Yes, it hurts her, but she needs to learn and adjust too. Shuttlepiper is not the only one who needs to work on the marriage. They BOTH do.
My husband left Mormonism with me. I was lucky. He was waiting for me, in fact. However, my parents reacted horribly. They took it very personal and considered my rejection of the LDS church as a rejection of them and our whole family. I tried really hard to show them how much I love them and that my leaving the LDS church didnât change the fact that they are my parents. The problem is that they refused to respect me and my husband as a couple and as parents to our children. They refused to respect boundaries and forced an estrangement. But of course, in their minds it was all our fault and we are the horrible apostates who are rejecting them.
My point is when it comes to marriage problems, it is quite rare that one of the spouses is guiltless. They both need to follow Paulâs wonderful advice and get some counseling if necessary.
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dianaiad
Guest
This is true and I apologizeâŚeverybody else was remarkable, and a previous post of mine said so.
As to your point regarding the idea that both people are at fault when a marriage goes southâŚwell, in many cases thatâs true.
However, I wasnât referring to the marriage going south; just going by what the OP said regarding what he actually did while his wife was praying.
I wouldnât put up with that.
More importantly, no matter how badly my husband behaved, if he had switched religions on me, I wouldnât have treated his âprayer timeâ in that manner.
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venite_adoremus
Guest
Pray with her. Pray for her. Pray for your children. But as to whether you kneel at the couch with her, or assume priesthood postures (because she does, or demands it of you as priesthood leader), or confine your prayers as directed to Heavenly Father only (instead of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity, the saints, etc), that is up to you. It is difficult to remain standing while she kneels in prayer. Or make the Sign of the Cross. Or clasp your rosary in your hands. Or conclude your prayer in the name of the Blessed Trinity. May God grant you strength in doing so.
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JamesCollins
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Why wouldnât a Catholic kneel in prayer? And the only time I clasp my rosary in my hands is when I am praying the rosary. A lot of prayers at my parish are just to the Father in the name of Jesus. Iâm not sure what a priesthood posture would be and I was a Mormon for over 40 years. The only priesthood posture I can imagine is standing in a prayer circle like they do in the Mormon temple so standing during prayer would be more Mormon than Catholic. Why would we want to throw Catholicism in the face of our spouse at a time when we are praying together ⌠canât see where that would convert her.
As for the charge that I have abandoned my spouse by becoming Catholic, I kind of had this idea I might be leading my family to the truth since Mormonism is so obviously false.
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iepuras
Guest
I wouldnât put up with disrespect either nor should the OPâs wife. The OP does acknowledge his fault, which is important and necessary. (This is unlike my Mormon mother who refuses to acknowledge when she is at fault. We cannot work on improving our relationship until she does so).
You did refer to marital problems in your first post. See below.
The perception of divorce and abandonment is a problem in a marriage. Remember, HE is also still there despite the fact that she may very well feel abandoned. The OP does need to respect his wife, but she also needs to adjust and learn to live in this new reality. She may think he has abandoned her, but be has not. He is still there, even with his imperfections.
Again, it doesnât matter that she thinks he has abandoned her; he hasnât.
Actually, what they both think matters and I donât think you should be as dismissive of the OPâs feelings and experiences as you seem to be. I get that you have more understanding of his Mormon wife since you are a Mormon woman.
Try walking in his shoes for a bit. Imagine learning a truth that shakes you to the core. By learning that truth, you realize you have been lied to and deceived by people you have always trusted completely. You realize your family is being deceived too. You love them and want to help them to also learn the truth. Now imagine they do not listen to a word you say. The people who you love and are the most important in your life are dismissive of what you think is supremely important. They used to trust you but because of this one thing, they donât trust you anymore. Now imagine trying to pray with your family. They no longer trust you and dismiss your feelings and opinion. Donât you think this might be hard?
The thing is, leaving the LDS church is difficult for both those who leave and for family who stay. The feelings of neither should be dismissed. Every member of the family is important regardless of their religion or lack thereof.
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iepuras
Guest
My own experience and my observation of many people who leave the LDS church is that it is often the âapostateâ who is abandoned by LDS family. It is not easy for either spouse when one leaves the LDS church. The feelings of both spouses are important.
I agree with you that you are leading your family to the truth. Iâm glad your family is intact. Too many families are destroyed when one spouse stops believing in Mormonism.
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JamesCollins
Guest
Thatâs because too many Mormons canât handle the truth about Joseph Smith. They are threatened whenever they are presented with it.
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