Is it okay to serve on a jury?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Savonarola
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Savonarola

Guest
Luke 6:37 says “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

It would seem to me that this would make it unadviseable to serve on a jury especially if it resulted in finding a person guilty. I know it seems strange to be asking a question like this but I don’t know of any other way of looking at this. Any ideas?
 
Oooh, toughie.

It’s wrong to judge, but we do it anyway. Even if we’re not in the jury, if we’re just sitting reading about the trial over coffee and donuts. We still judge. Have you ever expressed a desire for Michael Jackson to spend a good long time in the slammer with his fellow perverts? That’s a judgment. Have you said “This BTK guy ought to be behind bars for the rest of his life?” That’s a judgment. Have you ever waited 15 minutes for a parking place only to see a sportscar zap into it right as you’re backing and filling and said, “You blasted idiot!” THat’s a judgment. It’s not right, I guess, but we do it anyway.

Jury duty uses this natural tendency of humans to judge. We’d be doing it anyway, right or wrong, so we may as well do it for real.

It’s not for us to judge, but what we can do is pray the Holy Spirit to enlighten us with teh spirit of right judgment and that it be He, not us, who judges. Left alone we’d mess it up anyway.
 
Serving on a jury is part of our civic duty. I guess there are several ways to look at it.

If we are objective and are fair without prejudices, we can be a huge asset to the judicial system and can be really helpful to the innocent fellow citizens. And even if we objectively find that the accused is guilty, we can be doing society a great service by removing a criminal from our midst.

When we are part of the jury, we as individuals are not making a unfounded judgement. We are given the facts of the case as best the lawyers and defendants can relate them. We hear both sides of the arguments and try to make the best informed decision we can about guilt and innocence.

And even after we make a decision, we are not usually the last word. The judge has the responsibilty to accept our verdict and he has the right to change our recommendations for sentencing (except in some areas where mandatory sentences are in play).

To be part of a system to give folks a fair and impartial trial should not be considered a no win trap where God can use some harse measurements to accuse us or to hold us up to some impossible standards.

At least our judical system says you are innocent until proven guilty. A lot of others as in Europe (France in paricular), you are guilty unless proven innocent.

Our judicial system needs good folks to step up and serve. IF all Christians and God fearing folks decide not to serve, our system would be run by low lifes and criminals.
wc
 
I was scheduled Holy Week this year but fortunately the case was cancelled. When selection came up I was prepared to say I might be partial with it being Holy Week. 😃 I suspect I would have been relieved of obligation.
 
I like what wcknight suggested.

I’ve been on civic and criminal juries, and I’ll tell you the quality of fellow jurors varies widely. I had quite an annoying time with a particular gang-related drive by shooting case. You absolutely wouldn’t believe the stupidity in the jury room. At least one man of the other 11 listened for actual facts; the other 10 went on cliches, emotional flocking, and pretty much ignored the facts. Racism was obvious and rampant in two if the 12 white jurors. After arguing with me 11-1 on what one particular hostile (opposign gang member who skipped out on subpeona and came in the next day to testify in an orange jump suit) witness actually did or didn’t say, we had a readback which clearly made my point. One of the 11 was perceptive enough to realize there was at least something to discuss.

I might have voted to convict if the others had engaged me in a reasonable discussion, but they wouldn’t do it. I said, “we are supposed to find reasonable doubt. I’m not saying he didn’t do it, but there is a gap in the story, bringing doubt. If you can convince me it is unreasonable, then I’ll vote with you. I just want to see how the rest of you are getting by the fact that we never found a gun and only circumstantial evidence placed the defendent at the scene.” There response was beyond stupidity of anything I could make up. They said, “oh, we respect you. We would not say you are unreasonable.” Great. A bunch of cloning wussies. So I said, “if you don’t think the doubt is unreasonable then you should change your vote to not guilty.” Of course, there’s the old man, “he’s guilty all right; I’m not going to change my vote, so let’s get out of here.” He led the group, and we had hung jury 10-2.

We did agree in the first five minutes of deliberation with no discussion to convict on another charge of firearm possession by an ex-felon. He admitted to it when he spoke to police without a lawyer and they tricked him by bluffing him by threatening to run a test they knew they could not run. Idiot. He probably did the shooting. :rolleyes:

I tell you all this to demonstrate how much a clear head is needed in the jury room.

In terms of whether it is wrong to convict, I finally decided that it is a civic duty, and there is nothing spiritually to keep me from it. I am not condemning or even finding them spiritually guilty or evil. I am simply obeying the law to take the evidence presented, and match them against the instructions to the jury, and make my best guess. Convicting a person in a court of law, IMO, does not constitute “judgment” for purposes of having a hard heart. I think the biggest risk of “judging” is to the person doing the judging. Therefore, I don’t feel I have done the defendant a disservice in any way by clearly examining the facts of his case. I felt bad about the retrial and all they would probably have to have, but heck I had nothing else to do and since the others refused to have meaningful discussion I had to stick with the presumption of innocence. Same as that other guy who finally voted with me. What’s too bad for the other 10, is if they didn’t act like dishbags for 20 minutes so we could have meaningful discussion we probably could have convicted him 12 out of 12. I suspected the suspect actually did the shooting, but I could not convict in clear conscious without doing so according to the directions we were given to follow.

Another jury I was on, a civil trial against a truck driver who caused an accident which killed an off duty trooper and decapitated his girlfriend, lasted almost four weeks. In that one, we really liked the driver and wished we didn’t have to find him responsible, (plus the plantiff attorney was extraordinarily slimy) but their case was just too good and we had to decide in favor of the plaintiffs and against two of the three defendents. In that trial, a diverse group of 12 agonized for several days over minutia, then finally came together with the 10 of 12 votes we needed. At the end we were all impressed with how well young and old alike worked together to find a difficult verdict.

Keep in mind that the jury system is totally legit as far as the CCC is concerned, and the Church acknowledges that the government has a duty to do this sort of work. That does not conflict with Church teachings. Again, I think the difference is that we can find the person guilty beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence presented, without condemning the defendant in our hearts. Caution: Note that lawyers count on jurors not being this rational; they try to get us to hate the defendant rather than focus on the evidence, all the while claiming it Isn’t About Our Personal Views about the defendant.

Reference: the movie “Twelve Angry Men.”

Alan
 
40.png
Savonarola:
Luke 6:37 says “Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.”

It would seem to me that this would make it unadviseable to serve on a jury especially if it resulted in finding a person guilty. I know it seems strange to be asking a question like this but I don’t know of any other way of looking at this. Any ideas?
We are forbidden to judge spiritual guilt. However we can judge actions.

We are not asked to judge whether the defendant sinned or how seriously he sinned. Only God can do that.

We are asked to judge whether or not he did something, and, if he did, if that action fits the state’s definition of a crime. We are asked to decide questions of fact, which is a proper function of human reason.
 
I agree with Joe. We are not being asked to judge the state of someone’s soul. Only God can do that. But we can and do judge guilt or innocence before the law.

Actually, when you come right down to it, we could do with a lot more judging in today’s world! Failure to judge can be a dereliction of our responsibilities.
 
I agree with Joe Kelley. We as jury serve the defendent by judging whether he was guilty of participating in an action.

What we are banned from doing is judging the worth of a purpose, their culpability in the action with respect to sin, what God’s will is for them, etc.

Josh
 
Yes.

If you are concerned about the death penalty, perhaps you would be struck for cause anyway, if your views are too much against it (you wouldn’t make it past voir dire).

If you end up on a jury, I suggest preparing yourself for any moral problems that may arise. Juries are not necesarily going to follow the judge’s instructions, they can put extreme pressure on you to change your vote, many jurors just want to get out of there so they don’t lose their job, they will talk about the case when they shouldn’t, etc.
 
Joe Kelley:
We are forbidden to judge spiritual guilt. However we can judge actions.
Can you point me to where Jesus makes this differentiation? I’m not sure I understand how it is okay for me to condemn someone, possibly to death, for their actions when it is very possible that God finds no guilt in their soul. Thanks.
 
40.png
Savonarola:
Can you point me to where Jesus makes this differentiation? I’m not sure I understand how it is okay for me to condemn someone, possibly to death, for their actions when it is very possible that God finds no guilt in their soul. Thanks.
I presume you also refrain from participating in elections. You wouldn’t feel right judging the candidates would you?
 
It is illegal NOT to serve on a jury if appointed and not excused from it. That is contempt of court. You can get fined and/or thrown in jail for that. They select the jury carefully- I don’t think they’re likely to make you do jury duty if the case could involve things you are morally opposed to.
 
Joe Kelley:
I presume you also refrain from participating in elections. You wouldn’t feel right judging the candidates would you?
:confused:

What are you leading toward with this question?

A person is concerned about putting an innocent man to death, and you are comparing it to voting to a man out of political office. How are those even comparable in seriousness or in the collateral damage from making a human error in those two ways?

Maybe it’s because the people who are on trial for capitol crimes aren’t as important as politicians, that we value the careers of the politicians more than the life of the accused? That can’t be what you’re saying, can it? :whacky:

You really got me confused on this one.

Alan
 
40.png
m134e5:
It is illegal NOT to serve on a jury if appointed and not excused from it. That is contempt of court. You can get fined and/or thrown in jail for that. They select the jury carefully- I don’t think they’re likely to make you do jury duty if the case could involve things you are morally opposed to.
You had better believe it. They specifically ask questions such as whether we have religious notions or other opinions of the particular law you are judging on that prevent you from being able to execute your duty in am impartial way.

Of course everybody wants to think they would be fair so they take that question as kind of a cat and mouse game, but at least they do ask it.

Alan
 
40.png
Savonarola:
Can you point me to where Jesus makes this differentiation?
Start with Matthew 18:15-18.

Then refer to all of the places where we are admonished that the tree is known by its fruit.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
If everyone took the biblical admonition not to judge in a literal sense, you could not even be fined for exceeding the speed limit, running a red light, or imprisoned for rape or murder, since before any fine or penalty could be imposed, you must first be judged guilty or plead guilty. And even if you plead guilty, it is the court that must accept that plea and concur in the judgement of guilty. So must all judges be non-Christians?
 
40.png
JimG:
If everyone took the biblical admonition not to judge in a literal sense, you could not even be fined for exceeding the speed limit, running a red light, or imprisoned for rape or murder, since before any fine or penalty could be imposed, you must first be judged guilty or plead guilty. And even if you plead guilty, it is the court that must accept that plea and concur in the judgement of guilty. So must all judges be non-Christians?
I’d say that’s taking it in a legal sense, not a literal sense.

I do not judge for any of those things or worse when it comes to my condemning them in my heart. Judging them for legal reasons is outside the scope of Christ’s commands because it is a matter of the law and Caesar, not a matter of the heart and God.

God will punish the person or not. We do not judge; either way we find them legally we do not condemn them in our hearts, but we do pray for their soul. Worldly authorities are given the task by the CCC to protect their citizens and use force when necessary to keep order.

Alan
 
What are you leading toward with this question?

A person is concerned about putting an innocent man to death, and you are comparing it to voting to a man out of political office. How are those even comparable in seriousness or in the collateral damage from making a human error in those two ways?

Maybe it’s because the people who are on trial for capitol crimes aren’t as important as politicians, that we value the careers of the politicians more than the life of the accused? That can’t be what you’re saying, can it? :whacky:

You really got me confused on this one.

Alan
[/quote]

Savanarola asked Can you point me to where Jesus makes this differentiation? Maybe you would care to answer.
 
Joe Kelley:
Savanarola asked Can you point me to where Jesus makes this differentiation? Maybe you would care to answer.
Joe, I am a bit confused by both of your last two posts. Is there something I’m missing?
 
40.png
Savonarola:
Joe, I am a bit confused by both of your last two posts. Is there something I’m missing?
Savonarola appears to condemns all judging, there is no difference between judging people and judging their actions.

I asked him if one could vote without judging the candidates actions.

You jumped in to declare that that was different…

Please explain that to Savonarola.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top