Is it okay to serve on a jury?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Savonarola
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I have been called so many times I can’t even count. Have never served once. They never allow me past the voir dire because I have too many variables in my family and I’m opposed to the death penalty.
I wish the powers that be would make notes on this so that they just stop calling me in. Waste of my time as well as their’s. 😦
 
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JimG:
If everyone took the biblical admonition not to judge in a literal sense, you could not even be fined for exceeding the speed limit, running a red light, or imprisoned for rape or murder, since before any fine or penalty could be imposed, you must first be judged guilty or plead guilty. And even if you plead guilty, it is the court that must accept that plea and concur in the judgement of guilty. So must all judges be non-Christians?
If we took it literally, we couldn’t drive cars or fly airplanes, since we couldn’t judge distances or angles of approach.

We couldn’t farm or ranch, since we couldn’t judge cattle or crops.

Christ’s comments refer to those who appoint themselves to positions of superiority, not to those who do their civic duty in accordance with the law.
 
vern humphrey:
If we took it literally, we couldn’t drive cars or fly airplanes, since we couldn’t judge distances or angles of approach.

We couldn’t farm or ranch, since we couldn’t judge cattle or crops.
Yes, I agree but I think what Jesus was pretty clearly talking about was judging another person’s guilt, either condemning them for their actions or forgiving them. I know we use the word “judge” in the english language to mean many things such as judging distances or crops (which is just a synonym for approximating), and judging candidates (which is expressing a preference). I don’t think, from reading Christ’s sermon, that he was speaking of any of these things. He is specifically speaking of condemnation and forgiveness.
Joe Kelley:
Savonarola appears to condemns all judging, there is no difference between judging people and judging their actions.
Joe, you told me that Jesus made a distinction between the person and their actions here. I asked where he says this and you have not answered. MLChance was kind enough to point me to some passages to look at but I didn’t find the distinction expressed in those (thanks MLC). I am left to assume that Jesus made no such distinction.

In the end I am not sure it matters which one we are judging. In a jury situation you are asked to judge a person for their actions and possibly condemn him or her for them. Whether or not we are judging a person’s actions or the worth of a person’s soul, the end result of a guilty verdict is the condemation of the person. It is the person who either ends up in jail or dead, not their actions.
vern humphrey:
Christ’s comments refer to those who appoint themselves to positions of superiority, not to those who do their civic duty in accordance with the law.
Can you show me where Jesus makes this distinction? Thanks.
 
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Savonarola:
vern humphrey:
Christ’s comments refer to those who appoint themselves to positions of superiority, not to those who do their civic duty in accordance with the law.
Can you show me where Jesus makes this distinction? Thanks.
I’m not sure Jesus made that explicit distinction, but I think this is the best explanation I’ve seen of my impression of Jesus.

He constantly railed against those in authority who were putting down sinners who were, without question, sinners. He did NOT, in fact, admonish all sinners at least as far as it is recorded in the Bible, but stuck up for them unconditionally against those who wanted to punish them because they judged the “actions” of the sinners Jesus hung around with more harshly than their own “actions” of condemning them in their heart.

Judge a person’s acts but not a person? I find that a little bit shaky, and is nearly always used as an excuse to justify condemning them in their heart, if there forums are any indication. Therefore, whenever we go on about how a particular sinner “ought to be punished” then we are doing the work of the accuser and not the defender. That isn’t necessarily bad; justice requires both and advocate sitting on the left side of the judge, and a defender sitting on the right hand.

When we accuse and condemn in our own hearts, therefore, especially when we do it in a hypocritical fashion, we are doing the work of the DA (Devil’s Advocate) or something like that. Somebody’s gotta do it or their would be free reign. Christ will vigorously defend against anyone who accuses, though, because that’s His job. Since he has beaten satan, He no longer has to concern Himself with satan’s lies to the court, because Christ can defend against any of them.

Accuse somebody rightly and you are doing the work of the accuser. Jesus doesn’t say “do not ever judge under any circumstances” but not to judge because we will be judged with the same measure. Therefore I’m not sure it’s automatically sinful to judge another, just that by doing so we open our own lives up for similar judgment by Christ Himself, who knows whether we are being hypocritical.

So I think we can judge others, and I think we can let go of that “judge the sin not the sinner” mantra because it seems to me like it’s usually a smoke screen.

When we judge another sinner, we often invoke legalistic gobbledigook like the sin was objectively a mortal sin but the person’s culpability may be reduced so they might not be guilty of it as if it were a mortal sin? It sounds like we have redefined mortal sin to mean “destructive to someone” and come up with the culpability as a seperate argument to temper our accusation as if that would protect us from the reflexive judgment. “Oh, you have objectively mortally sinned and should not go to Communion” while saying in the fine print “unless you’re not really culpable in which case you should probably still go to confession to suit me, and a personal apology and pledge to never offend me again would be appreciated, thank you, or better yet leave this church because regardless of your culpability we don’t want people around here that do those things.”

If we were not so chicken-hearted, when we accuse someone we would be honest about where that accusation is coming from. It is coming from our own original sin, thus indirectly from the accuser, who is the one who condemns those who believes in Jesus (Rom 8: who is he that condemns). There is no condemnation for those who walk in Christ, so when this happens the condemnation must not be authentic, but of human/satanic origin.

I’d just love once to see a pharisee going off about some sinner and how they should not receive Communion. Instead of the mumbo jumbo about we’re just judging sins but punishing you, I’d love to see the pharisee say, “yes I know I’m judging you, but I’m willing to be judged myself because I think my judgment of you may help save you. Let us both go to confession before we receive again, because I have judged you as unworthy, and I do not presume to be above you.”

Alan
 
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Savonarola:
Yes, I agree but I think what Jesus was pretty clearly talking about was judging another person’s guilt, either condemning them for their actions or forgiving them. I know we use the word “judge” in the english language to mean many things such as judging distances or crops (which is just a synonym for approximating), and judging candidates (which is expressing a preference). I don’t think, from reading Christ’s sermon, that he was speaking of any of these things. He is specifically speaking of condemnation and forgiveness.
Jesus was talking to a neighborhood mob who were stoning a woman to death – not to a judicial body engaged in a legal trial.
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Savonarola:
Can you show me where Jesus makes this distinction? Thanks.
When He, Himself, submitted to trial by the Sanhedrin and by Pilate.

The Church has always held it to be not only permissible, but morally obligatory for judges and magistrates to carry out their duties – provided, of course, they do not abuse their offices.
 
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