Is it pointless to pray for the soul of the person who has murdered then expired by suicide or by cop?

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Mac, you are giving the sandy hook killer a free pass, in a sense by questioning his culpability. He was rational-- he knew enough that he felt it necessary to commit suicide otherwise he knew he would face life in prison. He knew enough to plan out the killings and carry them through. He WAS culpable and is NOT in heaven I assure you. I don’t subscribe to your universalism views.
Consider, that it may be your prayer that God uses to enlighten the mind of this killer, so that he sees clearly what he has done and, in his last moment before death, repents. Would you deny God, and this killer, your prayer?
 
Consider, that it may be your prayer that God uses to enlighten the mind of this killer, so that he sees clearly what he has done and, in his last moment before death, repents. Would you deny God, and this killer, your prayer?
It’s not a sin for me to withhold prayer for any killer. I have prayed for the Colorado movie theater killer, who is now incarcerated–he may have a chance to transform his outlook on life and seek a true repentance. He is still living. The sandy hook killer cannot repent in the after life. And it’s a fantasy to think he felt sorrow right before he ended his life, a coward’s way out. You can freely pray that God (who is beyond time) bring that killer to repentance before his death. but the facts are what they are. He committed suicide by gunshot. If he was truly repentant before he pulled the trigger, he would have not pulled the trigger.
 
Mac, you are giving the sandy hook killer a free pass, in a sense by questioning his culpability. He was rational-- he knew enough that he felt it necessary to commit suicide otherwise he knew he would face life in prison. He knew enough to plan out the killings and carry them through. He WAS culpable and is NOT in heaven I assure you. I don’t subscribe to your universism views.
It’s not “universism” (whatever that is). Nor is it a free pass.

And YOU can say he was culpable and pronounce him rational, but that is presuming on your part.
It could be argued that rational people don’t do what he did. It’s also true that he was certifiably mentally ill.

The CATHOLIC approach is to say that WE cannot judge that. Only GOD can.
 
It’s not a sin for me to withhold prayer for any killer. I have prayed for the Colorado movie theater killer, who is now incarcerated–he may have a chance to transform his outlook on life and seek a true repentance. He is still living. The sandy hook killer cannot repent in the after life. And it’s a fantasy to think he felt sorrow right before he ended his life, a coward’s way out. You can freely pray that God (who is beyond time) bring that killer to repentance before his death. but the facts are what they are. He committed suicide by gunshot. If he was truly repentant before he pulled the trigger, he would have not pulled the trigger.
I can’t fathom why you differentiate between him and the Colorado shooter either…why is suicide your deciding factor?
Maybe you should consult your catechism on that matter.
 
It’s not a sin for me to withhold prayer for any killer. I have prayed for the Colorado movie theater killer, who is now incarcerated–he may have a chance to transform his outlook on life and seek a true repentance. He is still living. The sandy hook killer cannot repent in the after life. And it’s a fantasy to think he felt sorrow right before he ended his life, a coward’s way out. You can freely pray that God (who is beyond time) bring that killer to repentance before his death. but the facts are what they are. He committed suicide by gunshot. If he was truly repentant before he pulled the trigger, he would have not pulled the trigger.
Yes, he took his own life with a gunshot after the sandy hook event, but how do we know he died instantly? Maybe afterwards, he was still alive for a few seconds, minutes…who knows what could have went on during this time…maybe right before his actual death, he did recognize what he did was wrong and repent. Just because someone shoots themselves in the head, does not always mean, death is instant.

On another note, Im not entirely sure on what actually took place at sandy hook, there are some very odd circumstances concerning this incident which dont make sense, especially when compared to the Columbine shooting. I think maybe the public was a little mis-informed by the media and law enforcement about sandy hook…Did you know, the VERY NEXT DAY, someone had scheduled a gun buy back event? pretty strange coincidence imo.

Im not claiming to know the details, Im just saying something else took place here that the public does not know about.
 
It’s not a sin for me to withhold prayer for any killer. I have prayed for the Colorado movie theater killer, who is now incarcerated–he may have a chance to transform his outlook on life and seek a true repentance. He is still living. The sandy hook killer cannot repent in the after life. And it’s a fantasy to think he felt sorrow right before he ended his life, a coward’s way out. You can freely pray that God (who is beyond time) bring that killer to repentance before his death. but the facts are what they are. He committed suicide by gunshot. If he was truly repentant before he pulled the trigger, he would have not pulled the trigger.
What does it cost us personally to feel mercy for another soul? While I pray with all my heart and soul never to be in that position, I believe that parents/families of some of the victims of different mass shootings have actually publicly forgiven and shown mercy to the killers. For those of us not directly affected, while we do not have to understand or accept their acts, does it hurt us to show mercy? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ showed Mercy to each of us, undeserved as we may be. It cost Him His Life. Praying for another and showing them mercy doesn’t cost us near as much.

It is your choice not to pray for others. At times, I struggle with praying for people who have hurt me, my loved ones, and society at large. I will do my best not to condemn them, as I do not want to be condemned, for even my private sins are known to God if not to others, and I pray for His Mercy.

Now, on more of an earthly note:
Suicide may or may not be the coward’s way out in this case. Medical professionals struggle to understand mental illness and the various aspects. Mental illness and depression are illnesses, but it isn’t just ‘one’ illness, anymore than cancer is just one illness. The facets of mental illness and depression are many, perhaps thousands of combinations of various illnesses.

Please, do not presume either the mental state or the spiritual state of someone, especially those proven to have various mental illnesses.

Lord, thank You for the Mercy You have shown us when we have sinned, when we do not deserve it. Please be with those who need it most, and show the same Mercy to all of us sinners. We especially pray that Your Love and Will be done, that your Love, Mercy and Truth be shown to those who are being tempted to sin, especially in the torment of mental illness, which can weaken one’s soul and blind one to the Truth, to reality. Amen.
 
Now, on more of an earthly note:
Suicide may or may not be the coward’s way out in this case. Medical professionals struggle to understand mental illness and the various aspects. Mental illness and depression are illnesses, but it isn’t just ‘one’ illness, anymore than cancer is just one illness. The facets of mental illness and depression are many, perhaps thousands of combinations of various illnesses.

Please, do not presume either the mental state or the spiritual state of someone, especially those proven to have various mental illnesses.

Lord, thank You for the Mercy You have shown us when we have sinned, when we do not deserve it. Please be with those who need it most, and show the same Mercy to all of us sinners. We especially pray that Your Love and Will be done, that your Love, Mercy and Truth be shown to those who are being tempted to sin, especially in the torment of mental illness, which can weaken one’s soul and blind one to the Truth, to reality. Amen.
:amen:
 
What does it cost us personally to feel mercy for another soul? While I pray with all my heart and soul never to be in that position, I believe that parents/families of some of the victims of different mass shootings have actually publicly forgiven and shown mercy to the killers. For those of us not directly affected, while we do not have to understand or accept their acts, does it hurt us to show mercy? Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ showed Mercy to each of us, undeserved as we may be. It cost Him His Life. ** Praying for another and showing them mercy doesn’t cost us near as much.**
Upon further reflection:
It does cost us something to show mercy and pray for those who seem merciless.

It costs us a piece of our heart.

Maybe that piece of my heart will help their heart be completed.

And our Good Lord knows what I’ve done. I feel assured that whatever piece of my heart I give to someone who needs it, will be replaced with a piece of His Heart. What a great trade, if you ask me!
 
Upon further reflection:
It does cost us something to show mercy and pray for those who seem merciless.

It costs us a piece of our heart.

Maybe that piece of my heart will help their heart be completed.

And our Good Lord knows what I’ve done. I feel assured that whatever piece of my heart I give to someone who needs it, will be replaced with a piece of His Heart. What a great trade, if you ask me!
Right again.
If it costs nothing, it’s worth nothing.
 
The reasoning you use to judge others will be used to judge you. 😉
Very funny. You jump at the chance to say I will be judged but no condemnation for a killer of 30 grade school kids.

Again, I don’t subscribe to universalism.
 
Upon further reflection:
It does cost us something to show mercy and pray for those who seem merciless.

It costs us a piece of our heart.

Maybe that piece of my heart will help their heart be completed.

And our Good Lord knows what I’ve done. I feel assured that whatever piece of my heart I give to someone who needs it, will be replaced with a piece of His Heart. What a great trade, if you ask me!
That’s very insightful.
Right again.
If it costs nothing, it’s worth nothing.
Great point.
 
Very funny. You jump at the chance to say I will be judged but no condemnation for a killer of 30 grade school kids.

Again, I don’t subscribe to universalism.
I don’t either, but I also will not presume to tell God who He can or cannot have mercy on. 🤷

“it is the perfection of the heart for which grace is given, and not for that of the mind” Jean-Pierre de Caussade - Abandonment to Divine Providence
 
I’m referring to all these headline grabbing mass killers who have killed so many innocent kids, students or random citizens. For the most part, these killers end up dead after their rampage. I highly doubt such killers make it to Heaven. Should we not offer up prayers for them?
Criminals who are killed and their victims are the ones we need to pray immediately for when we hear on the news of the event. If you do the rosary daily, add them as a prayer intention. The first three days after their death is very important.

As a general rule mass murderers are do not fit into society well - ie: social isolation, introversion, withdrawal and a relative deficit in social skills and relationships. Some have narcissistic traits and behaviors. Some revengeful. The list goes on. Perhaps there is a diabolical spiritual element to these events.

All the same it is a human response to develop hatred towards such mass killers, as Catholics I would hope that we can see through their human sin and be able to pray for them in death. God is merciful

If you have the time to read, I would recommend the book 'Get Us Out of Here’ a book written by Nicky Eltz about Maria Simma.

As quoted by Women of Grace about the Churches stand:
the Church has not pronounced on the alleged appearances of holy souls to Maria Simma, but because these would be considered private revelations, they do not belong to the deposit of faith; therefore, we are not obligated to believe them (see Catechism No. 67).
Because her book has an imprimatur, it means it has been reviewed by Church officials and found to have nothing in it that contradicts the faith; therefore, reading the book is permissible.
One thing Maria states The greatest complaint from the souls in Purgatory - Abandonment by their loved ones. Her words are worthy of reflection in how we think.

Quoted from Maria’s book:
Is there a time at the moment of death in which the soul still has a chance to turn towards God, even after a sinful life – a time, if you like, between apparent death and real death?
Response by Maria Simma: Yes, yes, the Lord gives several minutes to each one, in order to regret his sins and to decide: I accept or I do not accept to go See God. There, we see film of our lives.
 
Very funny. You jump at the chance to say I will be judged but no condemnation for a killer of 30 grade school kids.

Again, I don’t subscribe to universalism.
I dont think any one here is saying that he wont be judged, I think what they are saying is you, and everyone else here, doesn’t have the right to judge him. Only God has hat right, because only God knows what is in our hearts and minds. You also seem to know little of mental illness, and mental illness does reduce culpability. Its in the Catechism. I digress though. The fact is, you or I don’t know what happened in his moment of death. Because of this, it is not pointless to pray for his soul. Because we can’t know what happened to it. Thats not subscribing to univiersalism, that having humility enough to realize I’m not God. By saying you know he went to Hell, you are in essence, playing God.
 
I dont think any one here is saying that he wont be judged, I think what they are saying is you, and everyone else here, doesn’t have the right to judge him. Only God has hat right, because only God knows what is in our hearts and minds. You also seem to know little of mental illness, and mental illness does reduce culpability. Its in the Catechism. I digress though. The fact is, you or I don’t know what happened in his moment of death. Because of this, it is not pointless to pray for his soul. Because we can’t know what happened to it. Thats not subscribing to univiersalism, that having humility enough to realize I’m not God. By saying you know he went to Hell, you are in essence, playing God.
👍👍
 
I don’t either, but I also will not presume to tell God who He can or cannot have mercy on. 🤷

“it is the perfection of the heart for which grace is given, and not for that of the mind” Jean-Pierre de Caussade - Abandonment to Divine Providence
Precisely!
👍
 
I dont think any one here is saying that he wont be judged, I think what they are saying is you, and everyone else here, doesn’t have the right to judge him. Only God has hat right, because only God knows what is in our hearts and minds. You also seem to know little of mental illness, and mental illness does reduce culpability. Its in the Catechism. I digress though. The fact is, you or I don’t know what happened in his moment of death. Because of this, it is not pointless to pray for his soul. Because we can’t know what happened to it. Thats not subscribing to univiersalism, that having humility enough to realize I’m not God. By saying you know he went to Hell, you are in essence, playing God.
And, I believe I learned this year (correct me if I’m mistaken) that our prayers for someone are not wasted; if not applicable (the person is already in Heaven or Hell), they are applied to someone else? We can pray for ‘all souls in purgatory’, especially XXXX, XXXX, XXXX and XXXX. Or even specifically; I can pray for my uncle, but if he’s already in Heaven (which I wouldn’t be surprised; he was as close to a saint as I have ever met in my life), then those prayers carry to someone else.
 
And, I believe I learned this year (correct me if I’m mistaken) that our prayers for someone are not wasted; if not applicable (the person is already in Heaven or Hell), they are applied to someone else? We can pray for ‘all souls in purgatory’, especially XXXX, XXXX, XXXX and XXXX. Or even specifically; I can pray for my uncle, but if he’s already in Heaven (which I wouldn’t be surprised; he was as close to a saint as I have ever met in my life), then those prayers carry to someone else.
Not sure I’d go that far. I’m with you that prayers are not wasted tho.

I’d add this thought and say that one of the effects of prayer (perhaps the greatest) is not that it changes anything, but that it changes US.
Therefore, refusing to pray for someone doesn’t hurt them…it hurts us.

Seems to me it’s also an arrogant insult to God…like saying “I don’t judge this person worthy because I already know your mind and it’s made up (by me)”
🙂
 
I think it is not pointless for who knows in what kind of mental state was the killer in .No prayer is ever wasted,keep praying it can only do good.
 
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