Is it pointless to pray for the soul of the person who has murdered then expired by suicide or by cop?

[thistle]

If we are to love our neighbor as ourself, do we immediately stop loving them if and when they go to Hell? At what point do they stop being our ‘neighbor?’

With much prayer, perhaps God will relent on eternal punishment.

LOVE!

That is heresy. Eternal punishment is exactly that. Christ stated being in Hell was forever and that is what the Church teaches. If those in Hell are not there forever then it would mean Christ lied.

 

[RosslynV]

Take for example the teen who killed all those kids at sandy hook. Its highly doubtful this killer asked God for forgiveness just before he committed suicide, so therefore it is extremely probable that he has merited hell. Souls in hell cannot benefit from our prayers.

 

[Robert_Sock]

That is heresy. Eternal punishment is exactly that. Christ stated being in Hell was forever and that is what the Church teaches. If those in Hell are not there forever then it would mean Christ lied.

Didn’t God promise to destroy Nin’eveh, but relented? What about Moses interceding for the Israelites in the desert? God can indeed relent.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, are you Chabad or Chabad influenced?

I’m Catholic, but with a lot of respect towards Judaism. I pay heed to the Tanya.

LOVE!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hell, to many Jews, is like a Purgatory.

Dear Rabbi,

Do Jews believe in Hell? I am not planning any trips there or anything, but I have heard conflicting reports about its existence.

Answer:

We do believe in a type of Hell, but not the one found in cartoons and joke books. Hell is not a punishment in the conventional sense; it is, in fact, the expression of a great kindness.

The Jewish mystics described a spiritual place called “Gehinnom.” This is usually translated as “Hell,” but a better translation would be “the Supernal Washing Machine.” Because that’s exactly how it works. The way our soul is cleansed in Gehinnom is similar to the way our clothes are cleansed in a washing machine.

Put yourself in your socks’ shoes, so to speak. If you were to be thrown into boiling hot water and flung around for half an hour, you might start to feel that someone doesn’t like you. However, the fact is that it is only after going through a wash cycle that the socks can be worn again.

We don’t put our socks in the washing machine to punish them. We put them through what seems like a rough and painful procedure only to make them clean and wearable again. The intense heat of the water loosens the dirt, and the force of being swirled around shakes it off completely. Far from hurting your socks, you are doing them a favor by putting them through this process.

So too with the soul. Every act we do in our lifetime leaves an imprint on our soul. The good we do brightens and elevates our soul, and every wrongdoing leaves a stain that needs to be cleansed. If, at the end of our life, we leave this world without fixing the wrongs we have done, our soul is unable to reach its place of rest on high. We must go through a cycle of deep cleansing. Our soul is flung around at an intense spiritual heat to rid it of any residue it may have gathered, and to prepare it for entry into Heaven.

Of course, this whole process can be avoided. If we truly regret the wrong we have done and make amends with the people we have hurt, we can leave this world with “clean socks.”

That’s why our Sages said, “Repent one day before you die.” And what should you do if you don’t know which day that will be? Repent today.
chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1594422/jewish/Do-Jews-Believe-in-Hell.htm

 

[christofirst]

From the Catechism, CCC #2283:
**
“We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”**

I see this prayer for those who die by suicide as a duty of charity, and I extend it to all, even those troubled souls who committed murder or “died by cop”. I am not the judge, and I have no way of knowing what happens at the moment of death, whether or not a particular soul is repentant. I can only implore the mercy of God, for myself and for all.

 

[thistle]

Didn’t God promise to destroy Nin’eveh, but relented? What about Moses interceding for the Israelites in the desert? God can indeed relent.

LOVE!

It has NOTHING to do with God changing his mind.
God gave the Church authority to teach in matters of faith and morals. He said what the Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church teaches that all souls are not saved and that Universalism is a heresy. That is BOUND in Heaven. If it is not bound in Heaven then it means God lied.

 

[christofirst]

The second sentence of the above quote from the Catechism is the key, and it gives me so much hope it bears repeating:

"By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance."

The Church, with all its authority, readily admits that there are still possibilities which are known to God alone. Couple this with 1 Tim. 2-4, that “God our Savior… desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and it becomes apparent to me that it is never pointless to pray for anyone’s salvation. In fact, we should pray for the salvation of all!

 

[Robert_Sock]

It has NOTHING to do with God changing his mind.
God gave the Church authority to teach in matters of faith and morals. He said what the Church binds on earth is bound in Heaven. The Church teaches that all souls are not saved and that Universalism is a heresy. That is BOUND in Heaven. If it is not bound in Heaven then it means God lied.

What you say is true according to the teachings of the Church, but the Church views the Jew as His Chosen People. I would therefore think it wise to explore their beliefs a bit more deeply, and keep it in mind. As for me, I’m praying that God relents in eternal damnation and save these souls if at all possible.

LOVE!

 

[thistle]

What you say is true according to the teachings of the Church, but the Church views the Jew as His Chosen People. I would therefore think it wise to explore their beliefs a bit more deeply, and keep it in mind. As for me, I’m praying that God relents in eternal damnation and save these souls if at all possible.

LOVE!

I disagree. Your obedience is to the Church and its teachings only.
There will be no universalism. That is heresy and you would be wise to stay away from such thoughts.

 

[christofirst]

For me, it is best summed up with the simple example of the Fatima Prayer which I and many of us pray after each decade of every rosary:

“Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy Mercy.”

This in no way denies the existence of Hell, but it is a fervent petition that God lead all souls, not just some souls, to Heaven.

What irks me about these discussions, and I hope it is just the limitation of seeing the words in print, is when loving Christians, in their zeal to educate others about Hell, come across as though they not only expect a Hell teeming with countless souls, but that they would be sorely disappointed not to find a Hell teeming with countless souls!

 

[MacQ]

Take for example the teen who killed all those kids at sandy hook. Its highly doubtful this killer asked God for forgiveness just before he committed suicide, so therefore it is extremely probable that he has merited hell. Souls in hell cannot benefit from our prayers.

I would point out that that particular lad was mentally ill…certifiably so.

How do you presume to know how GOD judges that?

You might also want to refer to the definition (and criteria) for what makes a mortal sin.

 

[MacQ]

From the Catechism, CCC #2283:
**
“We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to Him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”**

I see this prayer for those who die by suicide as a duty of charity, and I extend it to all, even those troubled souls who committed murder or “died by cop”. I am not the judge, and I have no way of knowing what happens at the moment of death, whether or not a particular soul is repentant. I can only implore the mercy of God, for myself and for all.

 

[MacQ]

For me, it is best summed up with the simple example of the Fatima Prayer which I and many of us pray after each decade of every rosary:

“Oh, my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy Mercy.”

This in no way denies the existence of Hell, but it is a fervent petition that God lead all souls, not just some souls, to Heaven.

What irks me about these discussions, and I hope it is just the limitation of seeing the words in print, is when loving Christians, in their zeal to educate others about Hell, come across as though they not only expect a Hell teeming with countless souls, but that they would be sorely disappointed not to find a Hell teeming with countless souls!

I second all of that, especially the part I highlighted in red.

 

[RosslynV]

I would point out that that particular lad was mentally ill…certifiably so.

How do you presume to know how GOD judges that?

You might also want to refer to the definition (and criteria) for what makes a mortal sin.

The killer’s friends described him as highly intelligent. Sure, he probably was mentally I’ll but I feel that our society always makes excuses to deflect culpability. Nobody commits mass murder without having the evil inclination to do so.

 

[MacQ]

The killer’s friends described him as highly intelligent. Sure, he probably was mentally I’ll but I feel that our society always makes excuses to deflect culpability. Nobody commits mass murder without having the evil inclination to do so.

IQ has nothing whatsoever to do with mental illness.

Mental illness is germaine to the issue of judging whether it was a sin that sent him to Hell and therefore no point in praying for him (which is after all, the topic)

Sin, by definition must be committed freely, with knowledge and the option to do otherwise.

 

[ccmcmg]

The killer’s friends described him as highly intelligent. Sure, he probably was mentally I’ll but I feel that our society always makes excuses to deflect culpability. Nobody commits mass murder without having the evil inclination to do so.

Culpability to earthly ‘justice’ and culpability to God can be two different things. Highly intelligent has nothing to do with mental illness; in fact, some of the most highly intelligent people and creative geniuses of the last few centuries have been mentally ill in one capacity or another. Does that make them evil? No. Does that make them good? No. The two don’t necessarily have a direct correlation. I could correlate that a serial killer/mass murdered liked a certain food, therefore all those that like that food have an aptitude for murder. Not a proper correlation.

God knows our each and every cell, our intent, ourselves, better than we ourselves do. Sometimes, even when we are sinning, and hold ourselves 100% accountable for it, God knows if we have something miswired in us that might reduce our culpability; should we lessen our own culpability towards it, which can leave us making excuses, if we aren’t sure? I don’t think so.

IQ has nothing whatsoever to do with mental illness.
.

Agreed.

 

[MacQ]

God knows our each and every cell, our intent, ourselves, better than we ourselves do. Sometimes, even when we are sinning, and hold ourselves 100% accountable for it, God knows if we have something miswired in us that might reduce our culpability; should we lessen our own culpability towards it, which can leave us making excuses, if we aren’t sure? I don’t think so.

.

 

[RosslynV]

Mac, you are giving the sandy hook killer a free pass, in a sense by questioning his culpability. He was rational-- he knew enough that he felt it necessary to commit suicide otherwise he knew he would face life in prison. He knew enough to plan out the killings and carry them through. He WAS culpable and is NOT in heaven I assure you. I don’t subscribe to your universism views.

 

[mikekle]

Absolutely not, God can do ANYTHING, at ANYTIME…nothing is impossible for him, so we dont know what he chooses to do and not do regarding people, everyone is different.

Plus, we are immortal beings by nature, so I imagine all that God tells us is meant for eternity, not just applicable to when we are in our earthly bodies.