Is it possible for a good person to be condemned to hell?

[eazyduzit]

I understand exactly where you’re coming from Fran, but I don’t understand HD.
The question is- Is God legalistic? Well, yes and no. He has to be perfectly legal and just because that is part of the nature of God. You see our sins have already been judged at the cross, thus God cannot legally judge them again. When the accuser comes to Him and says, look your servant Fran sinned, God simply says “What sin?” Either all our sin is under the blood or it isn’t. Either you trust in the sacrifice of the cross or you don’t. Either your saved or your lost . Everyone is either part of God’s family or Satan’s. Thats it. If it’s the former, then heaven is already your home.

 

[frangiuliano115]

cont.

Why are you so judgmental of people you deem as pharisees? Why do you condemn and judge those who condemn and judge?

How could someone who knows theology not know what the red words are??

I’d try to read them again if I were you.

They speak of christian love.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I understand exactly where you’re coming from Fran, but I don’t understand HD.
The question is- Is God legalistic? Well, yes and no. He has to be perfectly legal and just because that is part of the nature of God. You see our sins have already been judged at the cross, thus God cannot legally judge them again. When the accuser comes to Him and says, look your servant Fran sinned, God simply says “What sin?” Either all our sin is under the blood or it isn’t. Either you trust in the sacrifice of the cross or you don’t. Either your saved or your lost . Everyone is either part of God’s family or Satan’s. Thats it. If it’s the former, then heaven is already your home.

Thanks for the encouragement. I’m happy somebody understands! HD is upset about something. We need to pray for him.

I very much agree with your statement as to how we must make a decision as to whom we will serve. You cannot serve both God and satan; it’s either one or the other. A decision must be made.

We should kneel at the cross every day and thank Jesus for what he did for us. Can we really understand it? Yes. Let’s keep our eyes focused on Jesus, our Lord and Savior!

Fran

 

[eazyduzit]

I don’t want to get this too far sidetracked, but your referencing penal substitution theory, which was a 16th century man-made tradition of the Protestants.

thepapist.org/articulating-the-atonement/

Actually my reference is Mt.5:17.

Should i take from your reply that you are responsible to fulfill the law for yourself?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

How could someone who knows theology not know what the red words are??

I’d try to read them again if I were you.

They speak of christian love.

Ok. Since reading the Bible in my protestant days, then converting in my formative years, then obtaining a theology degree from a Catholic University, then being a youth minister for many years. Then obtaining a SALT (Scripture and leadership training certification) piled upon my many many years of reading the Bible ever single day for prayer I shall reflect on the words of Jesus as written by man, under guide of the Holy Spirit which do not have to be in red…
Particularly,
John 14:15-16

15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;…

(it is all in red lest someone ignore the different colors) Which would be a mistake in the Bible since red or not they are ALL the divinely inspired scripture. Jesus was the Word. Not the Word in red.

In my opinon neglect of the OT and the law leads to a false application and understanding of mercy. But that just might be the “pharasee” in me

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thanks for the encouragement. I’m happy somebody understands! HD is upset about something. We need to pray for him.

I very much agree with your statement as to how we must make a decision as to whom we will serve. You cannot serve both God and satan; it’s either one or the other. A decision must be made.

We should kneel at the cross every day and thank Jesus for what he did for us. Can we really understand it? Yes. Let’s keep our eyes focused on Jesus, our Lord and Savior!

Fran

I welcome and need your prayers. Thank you.

 

[Gregory_Olson]

Oops!

I see what you mean.

I should have replied to Gregory Olson!

Sorry.

Fran
Yeah. Not too much was lost with Val being gone…

Eh? Someone say my name?

 

[Gregory_Olson]

Your post confuses me, but in christianity you have to be something underneath first and then you can do things.

God bless

Ah I see.

You’re right, but we’re all, whether we like it or not, ‘something underneath’–the image of God, able to live and be good by the grace of God. Whether or not we accept these gifts is up to us, and the only real way to make that choice is through actions.

Christopher Nolan (I think) recognized when he wrote that script that it’s useless to merely think you’re something special–whether or not you really are is best determined by what you do.

Greg

 

[frangiuliano115]

Ah I see.

You’re right, but we’re all, whether we like it or not, ‘something underneath’–the image of God, able to live and be good by the grace of God. Whether or not we accept these gifts is up to us, and the only real way to make that choice is through actions.

Christopher Nolan (I think) recognized when he wrote that script that it’s useless to merely think you’re something special–whether or not you really are is best determined by what you do.

Greg

Well Greg,

I do believe we agree with each other. And I’d say James is on our side too:

“What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? … Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead…”

James 2:14-26

Now I don’t know if Batman was saved - but he sure worked as if he was!

Now the CCC does say that it could work the other way around too. Had to think about it for a bit but here’s how I understand it:

A person might be an atheist but he likes to do good works. This could bring him to know God because it makes sense that a person inclined to good works is usually a kind and gentle soul who is open to the light of God. Of course they have to have an open mind and heart too.

God is always trying to get one’s attenton!

God bless you
Fran

 

[BornInMarch]

Ok. Since reading the Bible in my protestant days, then converting in my formative years, then obtaining a theology degree from a Catholic University, then being a youth minister for many years. Then obtaining a SALT (Scripture and leadership training certification) piled upon my many many years of reading the Bible ever single day for prayer I shall reflect on the words of Jesus as written by man, under guide of the Holy Spirit which do not have to be in red…
Particularly,
John 14:15-16

(it is all in red lest someone ignore the different colors) Which would be a mistake in the Bible since red or not they are ALL the divinely inspired scripture. Jesus was the Word. Not the Word in red.

In my opinon neglect of the OT and the law leads to a false application and understanding of mercy. But that just might be the “pharasee” in me

What about Matthew 25:35-41?

In there, Jesus says,

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

Nowhere in this passage does Jesus mention keeping or failing his laws. So it stands to reason that someone who feeds the least of his brothers and sisters when they are hungry will still be saved even if he was unable to keep every law.

And a lot of people have been claiming that Justice and Mercy are irreconcilable, but the bible says otherwise. When Jesus sees a woman being stoned to death for adultery he puts himself between the woman and the mob and talks them down from their anger. If Jesus really wasn’t merciful, then he would have been the first to stone the woman.

 

[Gregory_Olson]

Well Greg,

I do believe we agree with each other. And I’d say James is on our side too:

“What use is it my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? … Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead…”

James 2:14-26

Now I don’t know if Batman was saved - but he sure worked as if he was!

Now the CCC does say that it could work the other way around too. Had to think about it for a bit but here’s how I understand it:

A person might be an atheist but he likes to do good works. This could bring him to know God because it makes sense that a person inclined to good works is usually a kind and gentle soul who is open to the light of God. Of course they have to have an open mind and heart too.

God is always trying to get one’s attenton!

God bless you
Fran

Even the staunchest materialists will admit to being attracted to the Church, her members, and her otherworldly yet at once deeply familiar message.

 

[PhilXavier]

A person might be an atheist but he likes to do good works. This could bring him to know God because it makes sense that a person inclined to good works is usually a kind and gentle soul who is open to the light of God. Of course they have to have an open mind and heart too

I have no qualifications in theology so apologies in advance if I say something wrong. My interpretation of this, is that this is the meaning of one of the parables of the vineyard. When the man had two sons and asked the first one to work in the vineyard, and he said yes but didn’t go, then the man asked the second son and he said no, but thought better of it and went. Jesus asked which one did the fathers will? The answer was the second one. Jesus then went on to say and what is the meaning of this story? That some people say yes to God but they do not do his will. I always interpret this to mean by extension that there are people who say no to God but they do, do his will. So I believe that atheists can get to heaven if hey do Gods will on earth albeit unknowingly.

I also can’t believe that everyone who dies not in a state of grace automatically goes to hell. In my view this does not account for Gods infinite mercy, and if such a situation were true, what would be the point of prayer for souls, especially the Fatima prayer O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy?

 

[frangiuliano115]

I have no qualifications in theology so apologies in advance if I say something wrong. My interpretation of this, is that this is the meaning of one of the parables of the vineyard. When the man had two sons and asked the first one to work in the vineyard, and he said yes but didn’t go, then the man asked the second son and he said no, but thought better of it and went. Jesus asked which one did the fathers will? The answer was the second one. Jesus then went on to say and what is the meaning of this story? That some people say yes to God but they do not do his will. I always interpret this to mean by extension that there are people who say no to God but they do, do his will. So I believe that atheists can get to heaven if hey do Gods will on earth albeit unknowingly.

I also can’t believe that everyone who dies not in a state of grace automatically goes to hell. In my view this does not account for Gods infinite mercy, and if such a situation were true, what would be the point of prayer for souls, especially the Fatima prayer O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of your mercy?

I agree with your second pp PhilXavier. It’s a complicated issue. Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. What does fulfill mean? To give the law a full meaning; to explain it in deeper principles; not see it as superficial, external signs.
The greek word “pleromai” means fill up, expand, perfect.

The new law brings the old law to what God desired in the first place. Thus you’ll hear Jesus say: “you have heard it said” and then: " But I say to you".

If you check out Mathew 5:17 and continue you’ll see what I mean.

So what gives? Jesus is making the law be more difficult! But not to fear because He also gives us the grace to follow Him because He died on the cross for our redemption and we feel forever grateful to Him.

Slaves work because they have to
Friends work because they want to

Now check out James 2:8-12. (not the apostle James but head of the community at Jerusalem). He says that if you break one law you’ve broken them all. The Law refers to the 10 commandments - the moral law.

So if I kill someone I’ve broken the Law. If I miss church, I’ve broken the Law, if I steal some clothes I’ve broken the Law. Continue to 12 and you’ll see that James says that mercy trimphs over judgement.

I think we’re too harsh on ourselves; I think God is not in a box; I think we will be judged fairly by the God we love and serve.

Regarding your last sentence of the first pp: Here’s an important question for you: What is God’s will?
What’s the most important thing God wants us to do? That will also answer your question regarding atheists unkowingly serving God. The answer is in Mathew 21:32 at the end of the parable of the Two Sons.

Fran

 

[eazyduzit]

I agree with your second pp PhilXavier. It’s a complicated issue. Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. What does fulfill mean? To give the law a full meaning; to explain it in deeper principles; not see it as superficial, external signs.
The greek word “pleromai” means fill up, expand, perfect.

The new law brings the old law to what God desired in the first place. Thus you’ll hear Jesus say: “you have heard it said” and then: " But I say to you".

If you check out Mathew 5:17 and continue you’ll see what I mean.

So what gives? Jesus is making the law be more difficult! But not to fear because He also gives us the grace to follow Him because He died on the cross for our redemption and we feel forever grateful to Him.

Slaves work because they have to-.-
Friends work because they want to

Now check out James 2:8-12. (not the apostle James but head of the community at Jerusalem). He says that if you break one law you’ve broken them all. The Law refers to the 10 commandments - the moral law.

So if I kill someone I’ve broken the Law. If I miss church, I’ve broken the Law, if I steal some clothes I’ve broken the Law. Continue to 12 and you’ll see that James says that mercy trimphs over judgement.

I think we’re too harsh on ourselves; I think God is not in a box; I think we will be judged fairly by the God we love and serve.

Regarding your last sentence of the first pp: Here’s an important question for you: What is God’s will?
What’s the most important thing God wants us to do? That will also answer your question regarding atheists unkowingly serving God. The answer is in Mathew 21:32 at the end of the parable of the Two Sons.

Fran

I don’t think it’s that complicated. If you re-read the NT without a law keeping mindset,you might see that it is really presenting a choice to us. It is this: Either keep the whole law or trust in Christ. This is what the 2 gates or ways represent in Mt7. Both gates say “This way to heaven”. The broad way is the way of the world. Everyone thinks they can do it by keeping the law, whatever law it may be. Everyone has a standard, and we sit and judge others by our standards. But the problem is, NO ONE lives up to their own standards. I do not want to be judged by law. I want to be judged by Grace.But I must enter in by the narrow way. But in thisway you must leave all your pretences and good deeds and merits behind and only trust Christ. That is the way of faith. It is a narrow and restricted way. No room for pride. You bend low and humble yourself. Most people fail to see that there is a REST for the people of God -Heb.4. But, the Hebrews fell short of it for they did not enter by faith. Keeping the commandments is not rest. It is not grace. Read 2Cor.ch3. That which was written on stone tablets is not for Christians. Then carefully read Rms. 14. What is the kingdom of God?

There is a choice presented to us.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I don’t think it’s that complicated. If you re-read the NT without a law keeping mindset,you might see that it is really presenting a choice to us. It is this: Either keep the whole law or trust in Christ. This is what the 2 gates or ways represent in Mt7. Both gates say “This way to heaven”. The broad way is the way of the world. Everyone thinks they can do it by keeping the law, whatever law it may be. Everyone has a standard, and we sit and judge others by our standards. But the problem is, NO ONE lives up to their own standards. I do not want to be judged by law. I want to be judged by Grace.But I must enter in by the narrow way. But in thisway you must leave all your pretences and good deeds and merits behind and only trust Christ. That is the way of faith. It is a narrow and restricted way. No room for pride. You bend low and humble yourself. Most people fail to see that there is a REST for the people of God -Heb.4. But, the Hebrews fell short of it for they did not enter by faith. Keeping the commandments is not rest. It is not grace. Read 2Cor.ch3. That which was written on stone tablets is not for Christians. Then carefully read Rms. 14. What is the kingdom of God?

There is a choice presented to us.

I’ve read Romans carefully Eaziduzit, it’s my favorite book. All the theology you’ll ever need to know and, I must say, I much prefer it to the CCC or any of those writings of the early church fathers that are always being quoted - who don’t agree with each other many times.

Here’s why I think it’s a bit complicated. I’m going to omit bible quotes because I think you know your bible well.

If you live under the law, you will be judged by the law. So, yes, if we try to live by the law we’ll fail. Our sin nature inclines us toward evil and only with the grace of God can we live a life that could be pleasing to God. The Isreali slaves freed from Egypt by Moses had agreed (to God) that they would keep the commandments but, of course, they could not.

But what is pleasing to God? That we believe in Him who is sent. That’s why I directed the poster to Mathew 21:32. The tax gatherers and harlots did believe him (Jesus was talking of John the Baptist but it can be transferred to belief in Him) thus insinuating that they were saved but not the chief priests and elders who were trying to keep the law.

So, yes, we are no longer living under the Old or Mosaic Covenant but by the New Covenant which is superior. We are living under grace. Jeremiah 31:33; the law will not be put on stone but in our hearts.

Okay. But what do we make of James 2? I’m sure you’ll agree that faith without works is dead. You could still be saved but it wouldn’t be too good to just lock yourself in a room and not ever do anything. Jesus said that you would know a tree by its fruit. He told Mary Magdalene to go and sin no more. Jesus did say in the parable of the two sons that the second one did the father’s will.

So, yes. We’re to rest in God’s love. I’m not a fan of legalism. So the Father’s will is that we follow His Son, and the Son tells us that we’re to bear fruit. I don’t know if we could call that “works”.

To me works is trying to save yourself, as you said. So you can’t work to be saved - but once you’re saved, works should seem to follow.

Do you agree?

Fran

 

[eazyduzit]

I’ve read Romans carefully Eaziduzit, it’s my favorite book. All the theology you’ll ever need to know and, I must say, I much prefer it to the CCC or any of those writings of the early church fathers that are always being quoted - who don’t agree with each other many times.

Here’s why I think it’s a bit complicated. I’m going to omit bible quotes because I think you know your bible well.

If you live under the law, you will be judged by the law. So, yes, if we try to live by the law we’ll fail. Our sin nature inclines us toward evil and only with the grace of God can we live a life that could be pleasing to God. The Isreali slaves freed from Egypt by Moses had agreed (to God) that they would keep the commandments but, of course, they could not.

But what is pleasing to God? That we believe in Him who is sent. That’s why I directed the poster to Mathew 21:32. The tax gatherers and harlots did believe him (Jesus was talking of John the Baptist but it can be transferred to belief in Him) thus insinuating that they were saved but not the chief priests and elders who were trying to keep the law.

So, yes, we are no longer living under the Old or Mosaic Covenant but by the New Covenant which is superior. We are living under grace. Jeremiah 31:33; the law will not be put on stone but in our hearts.

Okay. But what do we make of James 2? I’m sure you’ll agree that faith without works is dead. You could still be saved but it wouldn’t be too good to just lock yourself in a room and not ever do anything. Jesus said that you would know a tree by its fruit. He told Mary Magdalene to go and sin no more. Jesus did say in the parable of the two sons that the second one did the father’s will.

So, yes. We’re to rest in God’s love. I’m not a fan of legalism. So the Father’s will is that we follow His Son, and the Son tells us that we’re to bear fruit. I don’t know if we could call that “works”.

To me works is trying to save yourself, as you said. So you can’t work to be saved - but once you’re saved, works should seem to follow.

Do you agree?

Fran

And all the recovering Marthas said AMEN!

Even the apostles had trouble with this concept at first because it is against our nature. See
Jn.6:28,29. They should have understood because the OT is full of examples of faith.
Heb 4:10,11. For he that is entered into His rest, he hath also ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

 

[frangiuliano115]

And all the recovering Marthas said AMEN!

Even the apostles had trouble with this concept at first because it is against our nature. See
Jn.6:28,29. They should have understood because the OT is full of examples of faith.
Heb 4:10,11. For he that is entered into His rest, he hath also ceased from his own works, as God did from His. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

You’re right. The apostles were O.T. men. I always felt like John understood Jesus the most because he was the most spiritual. Eventually it took Paul, studying and speaking to different people who knew Jesus, to start his writings and explain everything really well.

John 6:29 is the key, as you pointed out. I also like the rest of it where it says that the fathers were given manna in the desert but Jesus is the true bread sent from heaven.

So manna was temporary. It only lasted one day and then rotted. It was not satisfying.
Jesus is forever and He fills up the spirit of man - if allowed to.

God bless
Fran