Is it possible for a sincere sedevacantist to be saved?

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rogergosselin

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Regrettably, I am leaning strongly to the sedevacantist position. In fact, I have recently started posting on these forums to discern the teaching of the modern catechism that there is no rift in Tradition and that the modern teachings and perennial teachings of the Church cannot stand one without the other.

So far, the reconciliation offered to me seems to boil down to ignoring or outright rejecting many of the teachings of the perennial Magesterium.

Is it true that the Church now officially teaches that even atheists can be saved if they follow their conscience and thus do God’s will to the best of their knowledge? If so, would not the same apply to a sedevacantist?
 
The teaching of the Church never changes in respect to doctrine. And remember, that with God, anything is possible.
 
I wouldn’t claim to know God’s will in this. I would, however, point out that there’s a difference between the two.

An atheist has quite possibly never been exposed to an understanding of God and religion. On the other hand, a sedevacantist, by definition, is someone who was a part of the one true Church, and turned their back on it because they thought they knew better than the Church.
 
agnes_therese said:
I wouldn’t claim to know God’s will in this. I would, however, point out that there’s a difference between the two.

An atheist has quite possibly never been exposed to an understanding of God and religion. .
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Then, my first question would be: Does the teaching of the possibility of Salvation for an atheist only apply to one who is in invincible ignorance?

Concerning an educated atheist (the majority) there is a commonality with a sedevacantist. Neither is in communion with the current claimant to the Papacy.
agnes_therese said:
On the other hand, a sedevacantist, by definition, is someone who was a part of the one true Church, and turned their back on it because they thought they knew better than the Church.
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That is not a fair definition of a sedevacantist and it does undermine my question. The defining characteristic of a sedevacantist is that he/she believes that the Chair of Peter is currently vacant, not one who is intending to turn his back on the Church.

In fact, most sedevacantists, that I have read, strive only to uphold the unity of the Church and the primacy of the Papacy. Here is one of their favorite quotes:

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church, outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Does their position place them outside of the Body of Christ and forfeit their Salvation?
 
paramedicgirl said:
The teaching of the Church never changes in respect to doctrine. And remember, that with God, anything is possible.
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Surely you do not mean that with the Holy Spirit it is possible to teach two dogmatic doctrines that contradict one another!

My Faith and belief that “The teaching of the Church never changes in respect to doctrine” is precisely what is pushing me to the sedevacantist position. I am hoping that some on these forums can rationally resolve some inconsistencies I have been confronting, because they are causing a crisis in faith for me and thousands of others.
 
I am of the opinion that whoever sits in Peter’s chair is there because God wants him there. I’ve never quite understood the fervor that seems to drive the sedevacantist point of view. Regardless, if their beef is with the Pope and not with Jesus I would assume that they have every chance of being saved. Who they going to go to for confession though?
If they don’t trust the Church, who do they trust?🤷
 
rogergosselin said:
That is not a fair definition of a sedevacantist and it does undermine my question. The defining characteristic of a sedevacantist is that he/she believes that the Chair of Peter is currently vacant, not one who is intending to turn his back on the Church.
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Sorry, but saying “I know better than the Church whether we have a Pope” certainly does show intent to turn your back on the Church.
 
rogergosselin said:
Regrettably, I am leaning strongly to the sedevacantist position. In fact, I have recently started posting on these forums to discern the teaching of the modern catechism that there is no rift in Tradition and that the modern teachings and perennial teachings of the Church cannot stand one without the other.

So far, the reconciliation offered to me seems to boil down to ignoring or outright rejecting many of the teachings of the perennial Magesterium.

Is it true that the Church now officially teaches that even atheists can be saved if they follow their conscience and thus do God’s will to the best of their knowledge? If so, would not the same apply to a sedevacantist?
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Roger, I do think that a Catholic that sincerely believes he/she is doing the right thing in holding to the sedevacantist position can be saved. But it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks, only how God sees it.

The clincher is this: you won’t know for certain until you die whether you did the right thing or not. And at that point, you won’t be able to turn back and undo what you did.

It is a risk you take.
 
Besides, Roger, we’re not allowed to discuss sedevacantism here. :o
 
agnes_therese said:
Sorry, but saying “I know better than the Church whether we have a Pope” certainly does show intent to turn your back on the Church.
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I think this line of reasoning may be unfair. I flirted with the sedevacantist position myself, and actually it was that flirtation that brought me here to this forum not too long ago, to research, and it ultimately strengthened my faith in God and in my Church to the point where I ultimately rejected the sedevacantist position. this was partly because of what Glomung said above - that “whoever sits in Peter’s chair is there because God wants him there.”

but we cannot simply say the Church is right because the Church says so. and we cannot blindly follow the Church if it is **evident **that outside forces have infiltrated it and undermined it. it would be the same as saying we must continue to follow our country if it is taken over by neo-nazis. but the key word here is “evident” and I don’t think there is evidence to support the sedevacantist position.

EDIT: as with our country, we would of course continue to love and follow our Church but work to rid it of the forces trying to bring it down. I’m not saying we would/should abandon the Church as I think sedevacantists are doing.
 
rogergosselin said:
Surely you do not mean that with the Holy Spirit it is possible to teach two dogmatic doctrines that contradict one another!

My Faith and belief that “The teaching of the Church never changes in respect to doctrine” is precisely what is pushing me to the sedevacantist position. I am hoping that some on these forums can rationally resolve some inconsistencies I have been confronting, because they are causing a crisis in faith for me and thousands of others.
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Perhaps you would be interested in the following resources:

List of resources for use with the Society of St. Pius X and Sedevacantists

  1. *]Ten Objections to the New Mass: Answered
    *]List of Arguments Against Sedevacantism
    *]Invincible Ignorance: Backed Up by Church History
    *]Religious Liberty: Backed Up by Church History
    *]Baptism of Desire: Backed Up by Church History
    *]Death Penalty Limitations in Ancient and Modern Catholic Teaching
    *]Pope Francis Is No Liberal: 24 Examples
    *]Five Ways Vatican 2 Condemned Modernism

    All are available at this link:

    List of resources for use with the Society of St. Pius X and Sedevacantists
    historyandapologetics.blogspot.com/p/church-history-and-sspx.html

    Please let me know if that is helpful.
 
The sedevacantist break with the church is just that, a break. They are however still Christians, but not Roman Catholic. Is it possible that they may be saved, sure. But I am baffled how this group can claim to be RC, and the rest of us are in error.

If you leave the church due to doctrinal differences then you have left the church. There are plenty of Catholics who go to church with doctrinal disagreements and the lifestyles that go with those choices who are not really Catholics. They stand a chance at being saved as well. At least you guys are up front about it, and that is admirable.

In both cases though, it diminishes the ACTUAL chair of Saint Peter which is NOT vacant. If I were a sedevacantist, I would simply accept that while I was still a faithful Christian, that I was no longer a faithful Catholic and encourage others to stop sharing that denial as well.

I hope none of this sounds bombastic or mean, I sure don’t want it to come across that way. You guys are still our brothers and sisters, you simply attend another church, that’s all.
 
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