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Pag_Hingowa
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What are your thoughts on this?
Is it possible for atheists to be granted sainthood for selflessness and self-sacrifice acts?
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mariyka
Guest
To be canonized a saint, at least two miracles must have been performed after death.
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Miguelita
Guest
I suppose it would be possible…I heard once that it’s theoretically possible for Protestants to be canonized, but it has yet to happen. I suppose if an atheist were to have a truly self giving nature, especially a final act of sacrifice, it could happen…the process of canonization involves a proof of miracles, doesnt it?
meltzerboy
New member
Granted, miracles, and two no less, are no small thing; yet an atheist becoming a saint doesn’t sound kosher to me. Are miracles the only criteria for sainthood?
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The_Scott
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They must also have led an exemplary lifestyle in the Catholic faith.
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Qoeleth
Guest
I don’t think any actual atheist- since that would involve dogmatic denial of the existence of God.
But St. Boethius- we are not sure if he was Christian, or simply a kind of noe-Platonic philosophical Theist/Deist. He doesn’t mention Jesus once in his writings.
And also, Siddhartha Gotama Buddha, is also a Saint in the Catholic Church- under the name of St. Josophat.
But St. Boethius- we are not sure if he was Christian, or simply a kind of noe-Platonic philosophical Theist/Deist. He doesn’t mention Jesus once in his writings.
And also, Siddhartha Gotama Buddha, is also a Saint in the Catholic Church- under the name of St. Josophat.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I suppose it depends on what you mean by sainthood. There are the formal canonised saints as the Church understands them, and there are the ordinary ‘saints’ in the sense of all those in heaven.
I think it’s possible for the second category, but an atheist would need to be an exemplary figure indeed to obtain canonisation.
One person who comes to mind as a ‘saint’ is Fred Hollows, a New Zealander / Australian opthalmologist who devoted a lot of time to helping people in the Third World with sight problems.
Wikipedia link - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hollows
As far as I know he was an atheist, although it seems he was a Divinity student at one stage.
hollows.org.au/Fred-Hollows/young-fred
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Pag_Hingowa
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How many people died in the Russian Revolution to establish Communism? They certainly might have fought and died out of love for their people.
How does the requirement of miracles after death works for one to be canonized as saint? If a dead person did anything other than be dead, that would be impressive.
How does the requirement of miracles after death works for one to be canonized as saint? If a dead person did anything other than be dead, that would be impressive.
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PRmerger
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Not if they profess their atheism and do not repent of saying NO to God.
If they are atheist because Believers have been really bad at proclaiming their faith to them, then perhaps.
From the CCC: Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”
If they are atheist because Believers have been really bad at proclaiming their faith to them, then perhaps.
From the CCC: Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. “Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion.”
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DeepBlueSea
Guest
I think selfless love and miracles are not the two only criteria. May be they also have to exhibit purity (celibacy). ?
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Arizona_Mike
Guest
Do you mean formally canonized (recognized) as a Saint by the Catholic Church, or do you mean to become a Saint by going to Heaven? Technically speaking, everyone who is in Heaven who is not God is a Saint (including even the angels, I would guess - as St. Michael, St. Gabriel, et al, have the title.)
So if the question is, can an atheist go to heaven for living a selfless and self-sacrificing life, we can only guess, as that decision is up to Jesus.
If your question is, could an atheist be canonized by the Church as a confessor, it would seem unlikely, as there is a requirement to show evidence for canonization that “the venerable servant of God practiced virtues both theological and cardinal, and in an heroic degree.” (“An constet de virtutibus Ven. servi Dei, tam theologicis quam cardinalibus, in heroico gradu”).
The “theological virtues” are Faith, Hope, and Charity. An atheist would have trouble with at least one of those. All three of those are defined as divinely infused, and an atheist by definition would not be able to demonstrate Faith, as while it is (per the Catholic Encyclopedia) “the secret of one’s conscience; to the world it is made manifest by the good works in which it lives, “Faith without works is dead” (James 2:2). Such works are: the external profession of faith, strict observance of the Divine commands, prayer, filial devotion to the Church, the fear of God, the horror of sin, penance for sins committed, patience in adversity, etc.” That would be a tough sell for an atheist.
An atheist would also be unable to demonstrate Hope, as (again, from the Catholic Encyclopedia) Hope “is a firm trust that God will give us eternal life and all the means necessary to obtain it; it attains heroicity when it amounts to unshakeable confidence and security in God’s help throughout all the untoward events of life, when it is ready to forsake and sacrifice all other goods in order to obtain the promised felicity of heaven. Such hope has its roots in a faith equally perfect.”
A true atheist would even have trouble with the theological definition of charity, as it requires that God be loved because of his inherent goodness, and our neighbor is loved on account of God. One could argue that an atheist could still be an unwitting servant of God, but how would he show theological virtues while living a life in denial of those virtues, as we define them?
The four Cardinal Virtues (Prudence, Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance) could be evinced by an atheist, but as they are gifts of the Holy Spirit, it would be difficult to say one practiced them while denying their source. It would mean that the potential atheist saint was an idiot or two-faced or ungrateful, qualities one does not associate with saints.
A Confessor (one of three classes of canonized saints) was originally used to designate one who suffered great hardship (torture, mutilation, enslavement, etc.), short of death by martyrdom, yet did not cease to confess Christ publicly as long as they lived. St, Maximus the Confessor, who had his tongue gouged out and his writing hand cut off by heretics but still found ways to confess the truth of Christ, would be a good example of this. Post 400 AD, and using the current definition, a Confessor is one who confessed (i.e., professed) the truth of Christ through teaching and deeds, which would eliminate atheists.
If the atheist died as a Martyr for the Church, it would seem to imply that he made a last-minute conversion and renounced his atheism before death, as martyrdom requires that it be on behalf of, and as witness for, the truth of the Church. This would seem to be covered as a Baptism of Blood. But then, the martyr would no longer be an atheist, he would be a last-minute Catholic.
So to answer your question, Pag: No, an atheist could not be canonized in the Catholic Church, not while still remaining an atheist.
Whether he could be an atheist in life and make a conversion as he died or post-death? Not for us to say.
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Pag_Hingowa
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I meant formally canonized as a Saint. Unlike the great people associated with the Church, the great unbelievers have no system by which to be officially consecrated.
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Filippo_Bruno
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Thank you for your comments, Arizona Mike. The requirements for canonization seem quite clear and quite impossible for an atheist to meet. I’d like to look at a few of the claims about atheists and virtues, though. As an aside, isn’t it interesting how the Church uses the language of the Stoics and pagans for this subject? As an unmoved mover, Aristotle’s god bears a closer resemblance to the thoughts of deists and religious naturalists than the God of most religions.
Theological faith for an atheist does seem to be a non-starter, but theological hope and charity seem to be quite easy. A typical materialist has every reason to believe in an eternal (or practically eternal) life of sorts, though he or she must come to grips with the likelihood that their mind is only a particular configuration of the atoms that compose them. As my namegiver wrote, “when we consider the being and substance of that universe in which we are immutably set, we shall discover that neither we ourselves nor any substance doth suffer death. for nothing is in fact diminished in its substance, but all things, wandering through infinite space, undergo change of aspect.”
This doesn’t seem to me to be any more of a hurdle than a person believing in an afterlife, who must come to grips with the idea that their body is only a fleeting part of their eternal existence.
As far as charity goes, if one takes existence/the demiurge/Spinoza’s God as both the object and subject of what an atheist “worships,” it’s quite easy for an atheist to love the totality of existence for its own sake. Those that don’t likely struggle with thoughts of suicide. By the same token, I’m sure we are all aware of atheists engaging in acts of charity towards other human beings.
Theological faith for an atheist does seem to be a non-starter, but theological hope and charity seem to be quite easy. A typical materialist has every reason to believe in an eternal (or practically eternal) life of sorts, though he or she must come to grips with the likelihood that their mind is only a particular configuration of the atoms that compose them. As my namegiver wrote, “when we consider the being and substance of that universe in which we are immutably set, we shall discover that neither we ourselves nor any substance doth suffer death. for nothing is in fact diminished in its substance, but all things, wandering through infinite space, undergo change of aspect.”
This doesn’t seem to me to be any more of a hurdle than a person believing in an afterlife, who must come to grips with the idea that their body is only a fleeting part of their eternal existence.
As far as charity goes, if one takes existence/the demiurge/Spinoza’s God as both the object and subject of what an atheist “worships,” it’s quite easy for an atheist to love the totality of existence for its own sake. Those that don’t likely struggle with thoughts of suicide. By the same token, I’m sure we are all aware of atheists engaging in acts of charity towards other human beings.
I think we actually have an example of both a martyr (though arguably not for the Church, but for his faith) and someone who would “deny” the source of cardinal virtues, at least according to those who convicted him: Giordano Bruno.
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mark_a
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However much we may hope these folks are saints, how could God’s Church on Earth infallibly declare that someone who absolutely denies the existence of God, whose good works are rooted in himself, is in heaven ?
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Gods_Peace
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And Catholics believe when we do and ‘suffer bodily death’ (When our soul leaves our body) we undergo final judgement, to one of two destinies. Eternal seperation from God, or Eternal beatitude of God, Which may include additional purification in purgatory. Hope this helps clear things up, It’s Gods Will that is Done, not weak mans…
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Filippo_Bruno
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I was just discussing the virtues in the context of atheism, not any particular eschatology.
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Arizona_Mike
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It would also uncharitably anger atheists in the same way that Jews are angered by Mormons who had Jewish ancestors “baptized” in the LDS faith post-mortem.
If the Catholic Church were to infallibly declare that Christopher Hitchens is now in Heaven, that two supernatural miracle have been attributed to his intercession, and that he now see the errors of his beliefs on earth…well, aside from being ridiculous, wouldn’t that anger most atheists?
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Arizona_Mike
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Thomas Edison said much the same. But I don’t think many materialists believe in the personal survival beyond death of a personal soul or consciousness that can exist separated from the body, as opposed to continued existence of the material substances that make up the organic brain.
I would also note that Catholics believe that our bodies are an essential part of our nature, and that we will eventually have them recreated and our souls reunited with them, so I wouldn’t describe our bodies as only a fleeting part of our eternal existence…here is where we part company with the Greeks. That is part of the reason why what we do with our corporeal bodies matters to our souls.
(On the other hand, a poll showed that a sizable number of self-described atheists believe in an afterlife and even in God (!) so individual belief, even among self-described atheists, can be squishy)
Thanks for your thoughts on this issue.
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Arizona_Mike
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But again, dying for one’s beliefs does not make one a Martyr (as defined by the requirements for canonization), as many people who are not saints or even good people, including atheists such as the Marxists, have died promoting the expansion of their beliefs or were executed for espousing rival Marxist systems (such as Trotsky, or the victims of Mao’s Cultural Revolution).
I am not an expert on Bruno, but as the evidence indicates he was likely a homosexual, he would probably be ineligible for canonization on that basis as well.
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