Is it possible that instead of seeing God the Father and Jesus that Joseph Smith saw demons or hallucinated?

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Hey everyone. The Mormons commonly state that Joseph Smith had a vision in the woods near his home in Palmyra, New York in 1820 of God the Father and Jesus, God the Son. Well, how is this even possible since God the Father has no body. Of course, Mormons claim that He does have a body but He most definitely does not. Only Jesus has a body out of the Trinity. So, did Joseph Smith actually have a vision which was false, see demons, or did he hallucinate? What do most Catholics believe on this?

That said, Mormons, you are welcome to come in here and discuss this issue with us but I would appreciate it if this did not turn into a huge debate. Feel free to state your objections to what I stated but please do not turn this into a huge debate thread.

Finally, if Joseph Smith did hallucinate, is it possible that maybe he had a mental illness like schizophrenia? Are there other signs that we know of that Joseph Smith was mentally ill? Or was he simply an outright fraud and that his supposed “vision” was nothing more than a made up story?
 
Is it possible that instead of seeing God the Father and Jesus that Joseph Smith saw demons or hallucinated? Hmmmmmm…😉
 
Holly3278,

I suppose that you realize that the very same questions you have asked about Joseph Smith could be asked by any reader of the Bible about Stephen, who saw a vision of both the Father and the Son.

Saul (Paul) could have used the very same logic to ask the very same questions, before he had the vision he had on the road to Damascus that changed his life and his view of the whole idea of “visions”. (See Acts 7 and 8.)

Peace to you and all.
 
ParkerD said:
Holly3278,

I suppose that you realize that the very same questions you have asked about Joseph Smith could be asked by any reader of the Bible about Stephen, who saw a vision of both the Father and the Son.

Saul (Paul) could have used the very same logic to ask the very same questions, before he had the vision he had on the road to Damascus that changed his life and his view of the whole idea of “visions”. (See Acts 7 and 8.)

Peace to you and all.
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I read the parts of Acts chapters 7 and 8 about Stephen and I saw nothing in there about him seeing a vision of God the Father. Where do you find this? Could you please quote the chapter and verse Parker? Also, please use a reliable version of the Bible and not the corrupted Joseph Smith version.
 
Earnest_Bunbury said:
Is it possible that instead of seeing God the Father and Jesus that Joseph Smith saw demons or hallucinated? Hmmmmmm…😉
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I believe it is definitely possible. However, it is also possible that he was simply lying about his so-called “vision”.
 
I think that you would have to go with lying. Beyond the first vision, you have an angel carrying physical objects. That doesn’t sound like a dream. You also have John the Baptist and Peter, James and John all physically touching Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Joint-drug induced dreams? You would have to claim the two of them are liars.

but beyond that, you have witness testimony of many others who saw appearances of angels and heard the voice of the Lord, many times with all hearing at the same time. That’s pretty hard to explain away in an age without technology.

many men have claimed to see angels, but how many invited their friends to come see the angels as well and actually did (some of these people having no real prior relationship with Joseph Smith)?

It would have to be a lie to claim it is false, in my view. What one should be able to easily find is the lie falling apart because someone decided it was not worth upholding a lie his whole life.
 
tortdog said:
I think that you would have to go with lying. Beyond the first vision, you have an angel carrying physical objects. That doesn’t sound like a dream. You also have John the Baptist and Peter, James and John all physically touching Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Joint-drug induced dreams? You would have to claim the two of them are liars.

but beyond that, you have witness testimony of many others who saw appearances of angels and heard the voice of the Lord, many times with all hearing at the same time. That’s pretty hard to explain away in an age without technology.

many men have claimed to see angels, but how many invited their friends to come see the angels as well and actually did (some of these people having no real prior relationship with Joseph Smith)?

It would have to be a lie to claim it is false, in my view. What one should be able to easily find is the lie falling apart because someone decided it was not worth upholding a lie his whole life.
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The part that is hard to believe is that God would do exactly what He said He would not allow. He said, directly after Jesus changed Simon’s name to Peter, the Rock, that the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against the Church. The Church He built on that Rock is there through history with the unbroken line of the priesthood of the High Priest, Jesus Christ. To believe otherwise is contrary to this scripture.

So in order for me, a cradle Catholic, to believe that this teaching from the LDS church is true, I am required to disbelieve all of the recorded history since the 1st century, the Sacred Scriptures, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. In other words I would have to believe all three legs of the Church Jesus built and sent the Holy Spirit to protect are false, and historians were in agreement to mislead the world. But most importantly is the fact that through the writings, scripture, God tells us all these things are true, Catholic teachings that is. So if all these teachings that I believe are in fact false, you are telling me that God has lied.

Yes I believe the Mormon faith is based on lies by a man who was either misled or in fact planned to perform this great apostasy. Either way, I can easily believe that man would lie, but I do not believe that God would lie or mislead us in any way shape or form.

I choose to follow His truth, not man’s version or man’s truth.

Hebrews 13:7-9

Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching.

I ask you, who are the leaders being referred to by the author of Hebrews? Whose faith are we to imitate? Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever; if He created or built His Church once and He is the head, if He had to come back and “re-create” His body, doesn’t that mean He changed? Last question, would a strange teaching come from the beginning, or would it come in the future compared to when an author writes a description of the dangers of being carried away by said strange teachings?
 
That’s a good response as to why you don’t believe the doctrine (and I’m not addressing points you make that I believe to be in error), but does not really answer the question on whether the visions could have been Satan in disguise or hallucinogens.
 
tortdog said:
That’s a good response as to why you don’t believe the doctrine (and I’m not addressing points you make that I believe to be in error)You say I am in error with my points, I disagree. You are in the position of proveing me to be in error., but does not really answer the question on whether the visions could have been Satan in disguise or hallucinogens.
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That is precisely my point. I do believe the Word of God, I do not believe the word of man, delivered by an “angel”, which we all know satan is an angel, just not on the same side as God. So yes I believe Joseph Smith was led by fallen angels and demons assist him now.

If you believe your faith tells truth, then answer the questions I have presented. But remember, there can be no contradiction in scripture. If you believe the book of Morman to be inspired scripture, then it also has to agree with everything in the old and new t’s.
 
ParkerD said:
Holly3278,

I suppose that you realize that the very same questions you have asked about Joseph Smith could be asked by any reader of the Bible about Stephen, who saw a vision of both the Father and the Son.

Saul (Paul) could have used the very same logic to ask the very same questions, before he had the vision he had on the road to Damascus that changed his life and his view of the whole idea of “visions”. (See Acts 7 and 8.)

Peace to you and all.
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What version are you using???
 
Lapey said:
If you believe your faith tells truth, then answer the questions I have presented. But remember, there can be no contradiction in scripture. If you believe the book of Morman to be inspired scripture, then it also has to agree with everything in the old and new t’s.
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I think that’s disrespecting the creator of this discussion. Holly didn’t ask that question. Her question was rather specific. If you want to discuss the doctrine and whether the visions are in line with the Bible, then perhaps we should do that in a separate discussion, allowing this thread to focus on the point that Holly raised.
 
Lapey said:
So yes I believe Joseph Smith was led by fallen angels and demons assist him now.
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This answers Holly’s question. You conclude that the angels were really from Satan. If these angels were from Satan, how could they appear and proclaim that Christ is the Lord, the Only Begotten of the Father?
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3
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I’m seeing ‘uncharitable’ written all over this thread.

If I was LDS I’d be upset.

Please, lets try to be charitable to our wayward brothers and sisters.
 
On my part (being LDS) I saw the question as theoretical in nature, not an attack.

Statements later made that the LDS view does not embrace truth, or deviates from God in some way, are offensive, but I can take that in stride. The only reason they are offensive is it suggests that the LDS are fine with not following God, and one cannot truly believe in the First Vision and also believe in God or the Bible. That view is dismissive that there can be genuine disagreements on what the Bible says.

Were that true, then we would only have one church that believes in the Bible. Obviously that is not true. It is possible (really it is) for a person to believe in the First Vision, be a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and also be devoted to and believe the Bible to be the word of God.

Really it is.
 
Holly3278 said:
Hey everyone. The Mormons commonly state that Joseph Smith had a vision in the woods near his home in Palmyra, New York in 1820 of God the Father and Jesus, God the Son. Well, how is this even possible since God the Father has no body. Of course, Mormons claim that He does have a body but He most definitely does not. Only Jesus has a body out of the Trinity. So, did Joseph Smith actually have a vision which was false, see demons, or did he hallucinate? What do most Catholics believe on this?

That said, Mormons, you are welcome to come in here and discuss this issue with us but I would appreciate it if this did not turn into a huge debate. Feel free to state your objections to what I stated but please do not turn this into a huge debate thread.

Finally, if Joseph Smith did hallucinate, is it possible that maybe he had a mental illness like schizophrenia? Are there other signs that we know of that Joseph Smith was mentally ill? Or was he simply an outright fraud and that his supposed “vision” was nothing more than a made up story?
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A strange question that I suspect Mormons will feel very strongly about. Incidently, Catholics will feel just as strongly about our visions. It seems like the Christian world has had a number of visions over the last two thousand years. I treasure St. Bernadette’s visions of the Virgin Mary.

Are visions real? I suspect that some have been real and some have been false. When Stephen looked into the heavens while being stoned and saw Jesus Christ on the right hand of the Father “Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looking up steadfastly to heaven, saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And he said: Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” This is from the Douay-Rheims & the Veritas Bible online. This is one account that I believe is real.

Many seem to put faith in various different visions. For me, I tend to focus on Jesus Christ and all that glorifies him, that encourages his children to humbly follow him, to come closer to him in both thought and deed, and to love God more than self.

It would seem that Smith’s vision does do a lot for the Mormon people. Before I condemn them, I will turn it over to God and let him lead them to truth. May we all be found to glorify God in all our words and deeds. Peace.
 
Holly3278 said:
I looked it up in the Douay-Rheims Bible. Which version should I look at? I may have simply overlooked it.
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I quoted Parker D, not you Holly. Sorry if I confused things. If it in fact reads in his version the things he said, he has a different version than I. The DR is a very good translation.
 
tortdog said:
This answers Holly’s question. You conclude that the angels were really from Satan. If these angels were from Satan, how could they appear and proclaim that Christ is the Lord, the Only Begotten of the Father?
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3
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If satan can use the Word of God against Jesus in the desert, do you not believe he can use the Word of God against Joseph Smith? A little naive don’t you think?
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Where in the desert did Satan proclaim that Christ was the Son?

How does that address the scripture in John?
 
tortdog said:
On my part (being LDS) I saw the question as theoretical in nature, not an attack.

Statements later made that the LDS view does not embrace truth, or deviates from God in some way, are offensive, but I can take that in stride. The only reason they are offensive is it suggests that the LDS are fine with not following God, and one cannot truly believe in the First Vision and also believe in God or the Bible. That view is dismissive that there can be genuine disagreements on what the Bible says.

Were that true, then we would only have one church that believes in the Bible. Obviously that is not true. It is possible (really it is) for a person to believe in the First Vision, be a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and also be devoted to and believe the Bible to be the word of God.

Really it is.
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But how? There are contradictions as I and others have pointed out. This is not an attack or is it uncharitable, just discussion about differences. Both cannot be truth, there are distinct contradictions.

Either the tradition I follow is false and misled or the tradition you follow is false and misled; it cannot be both.

How can we discuss differences without pointing out the differences?
 
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