Is it possible that someone bad get canonized?

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Hello i was wondering if someone very bad could get canonized or beatified? And if the canonization is 100% infallible and it can never be anulled? And the canonization guarantees us with 100% of certain that someone is in heaven? And in sorride what if the church declares infallible the canonization of someone bad who are in heaven? Is there on history a saint with a bad history? Thank you!
 
Whoa. Slow down. I wanted to answer, but when I saw the number of questions…
 
Hello i was wondering if someone very bad could get canonized or beatified?
It depends on what you mean by bad. There are a number of canonized Saints who did some awful think. Look at St. Moses the Black (former bandit), St. Paul (hunter and killer of Christians) and St. Peter (denied our Lord in His time of need). If you mean someone who was bad and continued to be bad through there life until their death then I suppose they could not be beatified or canonized.
And if the canonization is 100% infallible and it can never be anulled? And the canonization guarantees us with 100% of certain that someone is in heaven?
Yes. There is a process that the Church does when declaring a person a Saint. For a person to be canonized there must be two confirmed miracles: supernatural occurrences (generally hearings) that can’t be explained. This is a sign that the person’s intercessions are being heard by God.
And in sorride what if the church declares infallible the canonization of someone bad who are in heaven? Is there on history a saint with a bad history? Thank you!
If you believe that the Holy Spirit guides the process, then the Church can’t declare an unrepentant sinner a saint.

Yes there are plenty of Saints with terrible histories. In addition to St. Moses the Black, St. Paul, St. Peter you have people like St. Augustine and St. Sebastian. There are many, many saints with a bad history and I’m sure other CAF members will be able to provide a much more detailed list.
 
Hello i was wondering if someone very bad could get canonized or beatified? And if the canonization is 100% infallible and it can never be anulled? And the canonization guarantees us with 100% of certain that someone is in heaven? And in sorride what if the church declares infallible the canonization of someone bad who are in heaven? Is there on history a saint with a bad history? Thank you!
Read the “Confessions of St. Augustine” That should answer a lot of your questions. As far as the Canonization process, it is very, very thorough and Yes when the Pope Canonizes someone it is Infallible. Someone ‘very bad’, has to become someone very HOLY to be Canonized. GOD bless, Memaw
 
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MacBP:
Yes. There is a process that the Church does when declaring a person a Saint. For a person to be canonized there must be two confirmed miracles: supernatural occurrences (generally hearings) that can’t be explained. This is a sign that the person’s intercessions are being heard by God.
This was true until recently. It used to be centuries before a saint was confirmed as such. Now the requirements are being waved. The OP has a point in asking the question.

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This was true until recently. It used to be centuries before a saint was confirmed as such. Now the requirements are being waved. The OP has a point in asking the question.

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Just what ‘requirements’ are you talking about. Certainly not the study of their life and holiness. Maybe a second miracle. God Bless, Memaw
 
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Memaw:
Quote:

Originally Posted by aTraditionalist

This was true until recently. It used to be centuries before a saint was confirmed as such. Now the requirements are being waved. The OP has a point in asking the question.

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Just what ‘requirements’ are you talking about. Certainly not the study of their life and holiness. Maybe a second miracle. God Bless, Memaw
I’ll play the devil’s advocate. For the record, I don’t doubt their holiness but what’s the rush? What would it hurt to have a second or even a third miracle? By most accounts the two popes in question seem to be examples of personal holiness. I immediately slow my roll in regards to the masses that beatified Pope JP II before he had even passed. I don’t doubt that all of this would have gone through in time but what’s the rush? Ten or twenty years are a drop in the bucket of Church history. Surely we could of waited until a second miracle. Do be fair, I distrust all rash decisions. In church time, barring cataclysmic events, 10+ years is no big deal.

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I fail to see why everyone is making a fuss over canonizations.

First: canonizations are infallible when the pope declares them ex cathedra. The pope cannot command the people of God to venerate someone who is not in heaven anymore than he can command the devil to pray the rosary.

Second: the process has nothing to do with infallibility. The process has changes over 100 times in 2000 years.

Third: the miracles have nothing to do with infallibility. There are many saints who were canonized without putting the alleged miracles to the test. During the first 50 years of the existence of the Franciscans it was a policy of the Holy See that no Franciscan postulated for canonization had to be investigated and no miracles had to be proven. For that reason the first Franciscan saints were the fastest canonizations in history.

St. Francis – 18 months

St. Anthony – 11 months

St. Clare – 11 months

There are other saints who were canonized very quickly because they were religious, members of the same religious order as the pope. The pope took the word of the superiors that these persons were saints and he infallibly declared that they were saints.

St. Dominic
St. Thomas Aquinas

There were other saints that never went through a canonization. The apostles, the Fathers, the Virgin Mary, the Patriarchs, the prophets, King David

Fourth: This more miracle and more time that people keep thinking about and wishing for as if it were a perfect situation and a long-term practice was created in 1917 under that particular code of Canon Law. If you want to canonize the Code of 1917 as the only Code of Canon Law that has any validity and authority, then you’re in trouble because mamy people were canonized outside of that code.

The person who governs a canonization is the pope, no committee and no canon law. The pope appoints a committee, creates a dicastry and promulgates canon law. Therefore, he can also bypass all of it.

Why are some of you so bent on binding current popes to laws of older popes who are not so old? 1917 was less than 100 years ago and people are making it sound like the rules of 1917 were handed down by St. Peter himself.

Finally, the rules for canonizing saints from the Eastern Catholic Churches are different. They follow a different Code of Canon Law with different requirements, also promulgated by the pope, which the pope can bypass.

What gives with wanting to confine the pope to a box when it’s impossible given that he govern 23 Churches with different laws and customs?

Once I realized that the laws of the Church rarely bind all Catholics, I stopped being overly concerned about the pope changing or bypassing laws. If the Chaldean, Syriac, Greek and Malankara Catholics can do it differently, why can’t the Latin Catholics do it differently? We, Latin Catholics, have a habit of locking ourselves into boxes and wanting to do the same to the popes. It does not work that way. The pope defines, decrees and commands whatever he believes is best for the life of the Church and consistent with the will of God, not the will of the people.
 
I fail to see why everyone is making a fuss over canonizations.

First: canonizations are infallible when the pope declares them ex cathedra. The pope cannot command the people of God to venerate someone who is not in heaven anymore than he can command the devil to pray the rosary.

Second: the process has nothing to do with infallibility. The process has changes over 100 times in 2000 years.

Third: the miracles have nothing to do with infallibility. There are many saints who were canonized without putting the alleged miracles to the test. During the first 50 years of the existence of the Franciscans it was a policy of the Holy See that no Franciscan postulated for canonization had to be investigated and no miracles had to be proven. For that reason the first Franciscan saints were the fastest canonizations in history.

St. Francis – 18 months

St. Anthony – 11 months

St. Clare – 11 months

There are other saints who were canonized very quickly because they were religious, members of the same religious order as the pope. The pope took the word of the superiors that these persons were saints and he infallibly declared that they were saints.

St. Dominic
St. Thomas Aquinas

There were other saints that never went through a canonization. The apostles, the Fathers, the Virgin Mary, the Patriarchs, the prophets, King David

Fourth: This more miracle and more time that people keep thinking about and wishing for as if it were a perfect situation and a long-term practice was created in 1917 under that particular code of Canon Law. If you want to canonize the Code of 1917 as the only Code of Canon Law that has any validity and authority, then you’re in trouble because mamy people were canonized outside of that code.

The person who governs a canonization is the pope, no committee and no canon law. The pope appoints a committee, creates a dicastry and promulgates canon law. Therefore, he can also bypass all of it.

Why are some of you so bent on binding current popes to laws of older popes who are not so old? 1917 was less than 100 years ago and people are making it sound like the rules of 1917 were handed down by St. Peter himself.

Finally, the rules for canonizing saints from the Eastern Catholic Churches are different. They follow a different Code of Canon Law with different requirements, also promulgated by the pope, which the pope can bypass.

What gives with wanting to confine the pope to a box when it’s impossible given that he govern 23 Churches with different laws and customs?

Once I realized that the laws of the Church rarely bind all Catholics, I stopped being overly concerned about the pope changing or bypassing laws. If the Chaldean, Syriac, Greek and Malankara Catholics can do it differently, why can’t the Latin Catholics do it differently? We, Latin Catholics, have a habit of locking ourselves into boxes and wanting to do the same to the popes. It does not work that way. The pope defines, decrees and commands whatever he believes is best for the life of the Church and consistent with the will of God, not the will of the people.
thanks, it is great to read your posts again! Still praying for you. Likewise, Saints like St. Fr. Kolbe was cannonized not because of miracle or even a direct martyr but because he willingly gave up his life for another man. I think they call that martyr for charity. We love you Brother and thanks so much again for your insight, clarity and wisdom.
 
Oh I also forget to ask some questions:

1- If a Beatified Person is 100% confirmed to be in Heaven?

2- All Canonizations are Ex Cathedra which means, that John XXIII and John Paul II, for example are 100% sure to be in heaven now?

3- Is it possible to a Canonization be anulled?
 
Oh I also forget to ask some questions:

1- If a Beatified Person is 100% confirmed to be in Heaven?
No. Beatification is the first step of the Canonization process, it means that the person lived in accordance with the Christian way and it is possible that he can be on his/her
way to Heaven, without precluding Purgatory. Canonization instead is the assurance that the person did make it to Heaven.
2- All Canonizations are Ex Cathedra which means, that John XXIII and John Paul II, for example are 100% sure to be in heaven now?
I am sorry but the Canonization is meant to reassure US, not the Canonized that he/her is in Heaven.
3- Is it possible to a Canonization be anulled?
NO.
 
I’ll play the devil’s advocate. For the record, I don’t doubt their holiness but what’s the rush? What would it hurt to have a second or even a third miracle? By most accounts the two popes in question seem to be examples of personal holiness. I immediately slow my roll in regards to the masses that beatified Pope JP II before he had even passed. I don’t doubt that all of this would have gone through in time but what’s the rush? Ten or twenty years are a drop in the bucket of Church history. Surely we could of waited until a second miracle. Do be fair, I distrust all rash decisions. In church time, barring cataclysmic events, 10+ years is no big deal.

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I trust the Church quided by the HOLY SPIRIT. Seems we may very well be in a Cataclysmic time now!! God Bless, Memaw
 
No. Beatification is the first step of the Canonization process, it means that the person lived in accordance with the Christian way and it is possible that he can be on his/her
way to Heaven, without precluding Purgatory. Canonization instead is the assurance that the person did make it to Heaven. I am sorry but the Canonization is meant to reassure US, not the Canonized that he/her is in Heaven.

NO.
Canonizations are not Ex Cathedra but they are Infallible. And it does mean the the Saint went straight to Heaven, NO purgatory! Good example for all of us. Read the lives of the Saints! God Bless. Memaw
 
What is the point in waiting 25, 50, or hundreds of years? If it can be shown that a person lived a life of heroic virtue, no sense in waiting to formally have another Saint in the Communion of Saints.

Just more that we can ask for intercession. God is not stingy with His honors.
 
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Indyann:
What is the point in waiting 25, 50, or hundreds of years? If it can be shown that a person lived a life of heroic virtue, no sense in waiting to formally have another Saint in the Communion of Saints.

Just more that we can ask for intercession. God is not stingy with His honors.
I think this is what the OP is getting at. How can the Pope just decide without evidence? We cannot pass judgment on the state of a soul or even assume Our Lord’s judgement without proof of His blessing through that saint’s intercession. The Pope may be infallible on this, I’m not contesting that, but merely asking how does he know? I would be more than satisfied if he at least came out and said," I prayed on it" or there are not the traditional two miracles but wow look at what we found!

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I think this is what the OP is getting at. How can the Pope just decide without evidence? We cannot pass judgment on the state of a soul or even assume Our Lord’s judgement without proof of His blessing through that saint’s intercession. The Pope may be infallible on this, I’m not contesting that, but merely asking how does he know? I would be more than satisfied if he at least came out and said," I prayed on it" or there are not the traditional two miracles but wow look at what we found!

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The Pope did not decide without evidence. The holiness and life of heroic virtue of St. John Paul II is glaringly evident. How does he know? He knew the man. He knew how he lived, how he prayed.

Why can’t we just be happy that so many more have reached their eternal reward?
 
Hello i was wondering if someone very bad could get canonized or beatified? And if the canonization is 100% infallible and it can never be anulled? And the canonization guarantees us with 100% of certain that someone is in heaven? And in sorride what if the church declares infallible the canonization of someone bad who are in heaven? Is there on history a saint with a bad history? Thank you!
WOW, ARE YOU SAYING GOD IS BEING CANONIZED? He’s the only one capable of 100% perfection…and Jesus…and the Holy Spirit…perhaps Mary…but the others quite possibly No.
 
Read the “Confessions of St. Augustine” That should answer a lot of your questions. As far as the Canonization process, it is very, very thorough and Yes when the Pope Canonizes someone it is Infallible. Someone ‘very bad’, has to become someone very HOLY to be Canonized. GOD bless, Memaw
👍
 
There are several problems on this thread.

Some people want to bind the Church to the Code of Canon Law of 1917, as if it had always existed.

We seem to be forgetting that there are many rules for canonization. There is no single set of rules for the universal Church. If you go to the Eastern Catholic Churches, their rules are very different from our own. Yet, all of these codes of law are promulgated by the one pope. If one pope can promulgate five different sets of rules to govern canonizations according to the culture and needs of each Church, which of the rules is correct and which are wrong. Often, they contradict each other. When we become to legalistic, we get caught in our own trap. Popes rarely canonize Eastern Catholic saints. Yet, they are infallibly canonized. The Patriarchs take care of it and the popes give it their seal of approval. The investigations never cross the pope’s desk. He used to be the Patriarch of the West, not of the Universal Church. He is the Pontiff of the Universal Church; therefore, every canonization has to be approved by him.

Most canonizations ARE ex cathedra. If one reads the rubrics for the rite of canonization or one simply watches a public canonization, you will notice that the rubrics say that the pope is to make the decree from the Chair of Peter. The wording is equally important. He uses three very powerful words: define, decree and command. He leaves no doubt that the person is in heaven and that the faithful must venerate him or her on a certain day of the year and must speak of him or her with all the honor and respect that is due to a saint.

Canonization does not attempt to tell us if a person took the express line to heaven or went to Purgatory. Canonization declares that the person is in heaven NOW and must be inscribed in the canon of the saints. If the Church does not get into the question about who went to Purgatory and for how long, why do we do that on this forum?

What is there to be gained? I see much more to be lost. The faith of people who are simple or who are exploring Catholicism is being harmed by all of this nitpicking. It makes it sound as if a canonization is something so insignificant that everyone can sound in on it and every opinion is equally important or that it’s such a sublime mystery that the pope has to tread gingerly around it, as if he didn’t have the protection of the Holy Spirit in the matter.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE NOT CATHOLIC AND THOSE OF YOU WHO ARE CATHOLIC BUT ARE STILL LEARNING, NOW HEAR THIS.

Nothing that has been said in this thread about canonizations has anything to do with the faith, not the amount of time that the Church has to wait, not the number of miracles that the saint must work, not how the person did his or her job as long as he did it virtuously. God does not demand perfection. He demands virtue. All of these rules are promulgated by the pope and any pope can change them at any time. And they have been changed more than 100 times in 2,000 years, because the Church is always looking to make the process more efficient and to protect the Truth.

At the end of the day, the pope says three things that are important. LISTEN UP!
  1. N . . . is in heaven.
  2. I define and declare by the authority that Christ gave to the apostle Peter
  3. I command that N should be inscribed in the book of saints and be venerated
The rest is really wording that can change at any time. He can change saint’s feast day. He can elevate the day to a solemnity or reduce it to an optional memorial. He can make it mandatory for some countries and not for others. He can bypass all the miracles. He can bypass the beatification process. He can bypass the investigation and canonize on his own recognizance and it’s still infallible, because the pope cannot order the faithful to venerate someone who is not in heaven. He would be ordering the Church to have faith in a falsehood.

The pope does not always have to canonize ex-Cathedra. But they are not less infallible.

The whole argument about St. John XXIII, Bl. Mother Teresa and St. John Paul II is more political than it is about the faith. It’s more about people wanting the Church to operate as they believe the Church should operate.

Let us not forget that the Church is not run by the consent of the faithful. It is an absolute monarchy. Collegiality does not extend to the laity, clergy or religious, only to bishops and with conditions. As far as canonization is concerned, the bishops can chime in at a consistory or at anytime during the process and the pope can choose to listen or ignore them. He is not the First Among Equals. He is the Bishop of Rome, which makes him the Pontiff. He can do anything that is not contrary to revealed truth and natural law.
 
Brother JR, you are truly a voice of reason and sanity. God bless you and keep you strong!
 
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