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fishi
Guest
Such as Elijah?
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Della
Guest
Yes, also Enoch and possibly Our Lady (the Church has never said if she died or not because it doesn’t know).
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tonyh12
Guest
(called assumption btw) , and the righteous living on the last day when Jesus returns will ascend into Heaven (i THINK i am right in infering this)
I think it is an unusual way to get to heaven eg: even the majority of Saints died first, but ultimately God decides but i assume for the vast majority of us in this age and all ages until the last day it is death first as a consequence of our sins
I think it is an unusual way to get to heaven eg: even the majority of Saints died first, but ultimately God decides but i assume for the vast majority of us in this age and all ages until the last day it is death first as a consequence of our sins
B
Binary
Guest
I’m not sure, but now I’m curious. It was my understanding that death is an effect of original sin that all of us must face, except for Mary, since she was preserved from original sin. So why did Elijah and Enoch get a pass?
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Della
Guest
Some Bible scholars think that Elijah and Enoch will be brought back and face martyrdom. That’s just speculation, of course. But, we have to remember that God saves whom he will. He extends his grace to whomever he wishes. If they were taken up never to come back again, God had his reasons, which we cannot know. Maybe he’ll tell us at the last judgment or maybe never. It’s really up to him.
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Ignatius
Guest
And Enoch.
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fishi
Guest
I was thinking more along the lines of “is it possible for us to be assumed?”
I’ve heard the claim that we can but I thought I’d ask around.
I’ve heard the claim that we can but I thought I’d ask around.
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mark_a
Guest
D
Della
Guest
Of course, with the understanding that the “rapture” won’t happen until Christ comes at the Final Judgment–just so we keep the time line straight.That’s what the rapture is all about.
Could it be said that Mary was pre-raptured??
No, we won’t be taken up before death like Elijah or Enoch or perhaps Mary. In each case God was telling us something important about himself and his relationship to men. None of us qualifies for such an important role.
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Ron_Conte
Guest
Saint Bridget said that the Virgin Mary told her there are no human bodies in Heaven except the glorified bodies of Jesus and Mary.
There is a theological opinion, held by St. Thomas and others, that Enoch and Elijah are in Paradise (not Heaven), waiting for the time when they will appear as the two prophets of Revelation. However, since God is unbounded by time, He could have brought Enoch and Elijah to that future time directly, without taking them somewhere to wait for thousands of years.
At the time of the general Resurrection, those who are still alive do not die and immediately rise, instead they receive the benefits of the Resurrection without dying; their bodies are glorfied, and they then rise up to the new Heaven with all the resurrected just. This event is like the assumption of the Virgin Mary; it is the assumption of the resurrected just.
[1 Thessalonians]
{4:16} For the Lord himself, with a command and with the voice of an Archangel and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven. And the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise up first.
{4:17} Next, we who are alive, who are remaining, shall be taken up quickly together with them into the clouds to meet Christ in the air. And in this way, we shall be with the Lord always.
{4:18} Therefore, console one another with these words.
There is a theological opinion, held by St. Thomas and others, that Enoch and Elijah are in Paradise (not Heaven), waiting for the time when they will appear as the two prophets of Revelation. However, since God is unbounded by time, He could have brought Enoch and Elijah to that future time directly, without taking them somewhere to wait for thousands of years.
At the time of the general Resurrection, those who are still alive do not die and immediately rise, instead they receive the benefits of the Resurrection without dying; their bodies are glorfied, and they then rise up to the new Heaven with all the resurrected just. This event is like the assumption of the Virgin Mary; it is the assumption of the resurrected just.
[1 Thessalonians]
{4:16} For the Lord himself, with a command and with the voice of an Archangel and with a trumpet of God, shall descend from heaven. And the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise up first.
{4:17} Next, we who are alive, who are remaining, shall be taken up quickly together with them into the clouds to meet Christ in the air. And in this way, we shall be with the Lord always.
{4:18} Therefore, console one another with these words.
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thomas_jd
Guest
The gates of Heaven were closed until Jesus died on the cross.
Enoch, Elijah did not gain a early entrance.
Mary died and was Assumed into Heaven.
Enoch, Elijah did not gain a early entrance.
Mary died and was Assumed into Heaven.
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fishi
Guest
I ask because i heard that it was possible to be assumed into heaven without dying as a result of a devotion to Mary, but i could have misunderstood. That it was possible to be perfect and not die or something of the like, im not too sure if i understood correctly
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Della
Guest
I believe you are thinking of the Sabbatine Privilege in which those devoted to Mary could be assured that Mary would deliver them from purgatory on the first Saturday of their souls being in purgatory. However, the Church has ruled that this is not to be believed. Rather, we can believe that Mary intercedes for her devotees who are in purgatory, hastening their release from it. This comes from the Carmelites’ (the Order of the Brothers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel) devotion to Our Lady that dates back to the Holy Land in the 13th century.I ask because i heard that it was possible to be assumed into heaven without dying as a result of a devotion to Mary, but i could have misunderstood. That it was possible to be perfect and not die or something of the like, im not too sure if i understood correctly
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fishi
Guest
yes i’ve heard of the above but i don’t think it is the same one. i believe it’s based on an apparition of the Virgen de Pozo in Puerto Rico . i tried looking it up but couludn’t find much except that it is unapproved and has much controversy. part of the reason i ask is that this devotion is present in my city and among some parishioners and i’d like to understand the situation better.
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Della
Guest
Since the apparitions are not approved CAF asks us not to discuss them. I found one link that actually tells the story, and one letter from the bishop of San Antonio disallowing the devotion, but that’s all. It’s unfortunate that since the Church has spoken through the bishop that this devotion is not approved some people still insist on practicing it. If it is a problem in your parish you may wish to discuss it with your pastor to ask him how you should deal with those who are following these apparitions.
In any case, the answer is no–the only way to be with God in heaven is through death. When Jesus returns at the final judgment he will “catch up” the faithful who are still alive, but that is the only time it will happen.
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JPCalifornia
Guest
There is also the posibility that St. Joseph was also taken to heaven alive. He was a righteous man, he remain virgen, he was chosen by God to take Care of Jesus and Mary, and nowhere in the Bible or official Chuch doc. Declares that he died and where he is laid to rest. The is a strong posibility that he was taken alive like Eliah, Enoch and the Blessed Mother.
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Della
Guest
“A strong possibility” is too strong a statement, here. You are arguing from silence. There are no Church documents that even hint that Joseph was assumed into heaven. He certainly was a godly man, a righteous man and a great saint, but unlike the Virgin Mary, he was not sinless. He is, like all the other great saints, alive in heaven with Christ, but his body is not there–not yet.
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JPCalifornia
Guest
You are right. The is no evidance but that which is in the Scriptures. Enoch and Eliah were taken to heaven with their bodies.
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Della
Guest
Their ultimate fate has already been discussed in this thread. They are not going to be in their present physical states forever, nor do we know that they are enjoying the beautific vision, as are the Saints. Their story is a mystery, but not “proof” of anyone else’s bodily assumption, nor is it the teaching of the Church that St. Joseph’s body is in heaven. And that trumps all speculations and biblical interpretations by those other than the Magisterium.
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