Is it possible to have faith without being narrow minded?

PiousTemplar · Oct 9, 2011

I don’t get it! The definition of ‘narrow minded’ says:
having a biased or illiberal viewpoint; bigoted, intolerant, or prejudiced and
rigidly adhering to a particular sect or its doctrines

Seems to me that you have to have a “All religions lead to God, truths are subjective” mentality in order not to be narrow minded. In that case, is being ‘narrow minded’ even a bad thing?

Bohm_Bawerk · Oct 9, 2011

Good question PiousTemplar.

As I’m sure you know, I’m a former Catholic. I’m an atheist now. This question really hit home.

Based on my own experience, it is virtually impossible to have faith and to not be narrow-minded. The reason for this is that you always act from the presumption that “God exists and my religion is the correct one”. During my time as a Catholic, I found that I started to have less of a mind of my own, and more of a mind that the Church seemed to own. I see it on these forums all the time, but I’m sympathetic to those who are affected since I was there myself. Everytime I encountered something, it was always a case of “Does this stack up to Church teaching?” What once started as a case of resorting to the Church on matters of faith and morals, then escalated to a case of politics and economics. Eventually, it gets to a case where the Church controls your thoughts indirectly. Any scientific discovery you read about? Check it with the Church. Any economic finding you read about? Check it with the Church. The person you want to vote for? Check it with the Church. This kind of lifestyle is simply unsustainable, and I found I had moments of even being “radicalized”.

Of course, this isn’t to say that agreeing that something is objectively immoral is narrow-minded. You discern this with reason, from the starting point that you know nothing, as St. Thomas Aquinas postulated. You take a “scientific approach” as it were with Truth. St. Thomas Aquinas took the approach that “Truth is truth wherever you find it” (this explains why he was influenced by Islamic philosophers), and that “truth will guide me to truth”. But I think there is a clear difference between this, and the Church telling you “Don’t eat meat on Friday” (no spiritual benefit whatsoever) or meddling in politics/economics/science.

Al_Moritz · Oct 9, 2011

Yes, you can be openminded, and I emphatically am. Adhering to faith and dogma is for me not an issue that I did not question, but I renewed my adherence to faith and dogma after critcally questioning them. I adhere to dogma because I have come to the rational conclusion, born from critical thinking, that it is eminently reasonable to assume the existence of God, to trust in God – after all, He is our creator, and that it is eminently reasonable to trust that the Catholic Church was founded by God.

God is a much higher authority than scientists, and still all science-informed people trust that scientists tell them the truth, and that so-called scientific consensus is true consensus and not just a lie (some creationists for example judge that scientific consensus on evolution is a lie, but that is irrational of course). What is more, scientists constantly trust their colleagues in other scientific disciplines, simply because they have no other choice, and because they trust that the scientific peer-review process works. Even more than that, scientists have to trust colleagues in their own discipline, because they cannot carry out all the experiments and observations themselves. I know all that first-hand, being a scientist myself.

So if we have to put trust into others even when it comes to science – we really have no other rational choice – why is it then irrational and narrow-minded to put your trust in God?

Again, my trust in God is not irrational and narrow-minded blindness. It comes from a rational weighing of all the options, including atheism. In fact, I can confidently claim, judging from numerous debates that I had with atheists over several years, that I have thought about the arguments in favor of atheism far more deeply and thoroughly than the vast majority of atheists will ever do in all their lives. One critical instrument at my disposal is love and knowledge for philosophy. Many atheists discard philosophy, but this is superficial thinking, since the worldview of naturalism, which most atheists adhere to, is a philosophical view, not a scientific one. Claiming to only adhering to ‘science’ and discarding philosophy does not really avoid philosophy, but only leads to bad philosophy.

For my story, see:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=605611

From that story you will see that I have rejected ID and embraced the high probability of an origin of life by natural causes, even though I am theist, because of my critical thinking and openmindedness to facts. In fact, I am far more open-minded than most atheists, deeply entrenched in naturalistic dogma as they are.

Bl_Pope_Pius_IX · Oct 9, 2011

Why does it matter if you are narrow-minded according to some dictionary? If a dictionary says I’m narrow-minded, then fine. So be it. I try to be the best Catholic I can be, and that is that.

~ Pius :knight1:

St_Francis · Oct 9, 2011

Pious Templar,
Al made one point I was going to make, which is that atheists and I would add liberals can be very close-minded as well. I don’t know much about atheists or atheism, but political liberals certainly have their dogmas, and many of them have a vision of a perfect society which has never existed, and that is all held on faith, no? So I would say that you have narrow-minded people everywhere, but that the inclusion of “illiberal” thus precludes the word from being applied to “liberals.”

Anyway, I see what you are saying about your situation, altho the fact that your thoughts were more and more in line with Christ’s teachings seems like a lovely grace rather than the fearsome thing you toom it for. Perhaps it was not so much as you described but a concommitant hardening of the heart against those who were not in the same place? I may be totally off-base here…

I ask this because I have been reflectting on the potential for a form of Pharisaism in myself. As someone who came to the Faith as an adult, I felt I had a lot to make up for and wanted to reall Get Things Right. This has, I admit, involved a skittering away from anything which seemed remotely “wrong.” And it also made me feel very tight and suspicious: narrow-minded, in fact.

So I’m considering these things.

Anyway,

JRKH · Oct 9, 2011

Lets see - I guess I am “narrow minded” - on a “narrow path” - headed for the “Narrow Gate”…

Kidding aside…

It seems that there is a confusion here. It seems that you are presenting two extremes without allowing for a middle ground.

Certainly it is possible to be religious and not be “narrow minded” as defined above. However this does NOT mean that one needs to believe in the “All religions lead to God…” mentality either.
The middle ground is to be respectful and tolerant, and yet firm in ones own convictions as the Holy Spirit has given us the grace to understand those convictions. Remember when Jesus sent out the 12 in Mt 10:5-15. He said this about those who rejected the good news, “* And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town*”.
We share that which we are convicted of. If others do not accept it…we move on…This is both firm AND respectful.

Peace
James

Adonia · Oct 9, 2011

Yes it is. My free will allows me to think as my own person. For the basics of the Catholic faith I have chosen to believe the Churchs’ teachings on the issues. As for things secular, the U.S. Constitution is my guide. I believe that others have their own free will also, and it is up to them to live their lives as they see fit.

I disagree that there is"no spititual benefit whatsoever" when meat is not eaten on Friday.

To me, it could be looked at as a discipline, offering this action up to God as a small gesture of what God did for us, sending His son as our salvation. This could be accompanied by a day of prayer and reflection of the mysteries of God. Yes, this could be a good practice full of untold spiritual benefits.

PiousTemplar · Oct 9, 2011

Thanks for your discussion all, very interesting points of view. I hope it continues!

Julia_Mae · Oct 9, 2011

No wonder you decided you are an atheist, you were worshiping the Church. Which is not what we are supposed to be doing, we are supposed to be a worshiping Church.

As to narrow-mindedness, people want surety. They want to be “right.” They can’t help it, they were indoctrinated as children, for years and years, you get an “A” on a test, you are simply better than others who did not. Then we get out into the world and find out no one cares much about “rightness.”

My faith never flags and I don’t consider myself narrow-minded and my thoughts are not “controlled” by the Church, indirectly or otherwise. But my faith is not in “the Church” and never will be. My faith is in God, the One I know for a fact exists, and also know for a fact we cannot ever fully comprehend in this life. Or even get at all close to comprehending.

IMO, people with a tendency to narrow-mindedness will be that regardless of the situation they are in, unless they have a significant change of mind.

fhansen · Oct 9, 2011

Christian faith actually broadens our perspective and knowledge. It can only appear narrow in relation to other religions with contradictory views. It’s all a matter of truth in the end, and, like Augustine said, “All truth is Gods truth”. But you can’t win even with that since some will consider any belief in God to be objectionably narrow

Al_Moritz · Oct 9, 2011

How true. I know a number of former Christian fundamentalists who have become atheists. They keep on being closed-minded, dogmatic fundamentalists of the worst sort, only now without faith in God and under the fake disguise of ‘rationality’, which is a convenient excuse for them not to engage in critical thinking. I would almost say, it is a hilarious scene, would it not be quite sad actually.

babylonsfalling · Oct 9, 2011

Faith OPENS the mind to things outside the carnal realm, beyond what our senses show us and beyond what telescopes, microscopes or other instruments can tell us. Those without faith are intentionally choosing a much narrower perspective, and closing themselves off.

MindOverMatter2 · Oct 9, 2011

Narrow mindedness can have two definitions.

Staying on the right path
Ignoring evidence that is contrary to popular belief, religion, or political ideology.

Science is narrow-minded in the sense of maintaining its underlying principles of investigation. That is not a negative form of narrow thinking, and it is in perfect conformity with the first definition.

Religion can be narrow-minded in a good way, such as sticking to self evident, revealed or rational moral truths despite popular opinion to the contrary. I would not have much respect for a religion that changes merely according to the tide of popular opinion. Although if i found out that some moral belief was “irrational” (as opposed to merely being unpopular) i would reject it. One thing that i did find out, is that the Catholic Faith is not something which cannot be investigated rationally. Its not just a religion with dogmatic rules that we are expected to accept on blind faith alone. But it is also a philosophy which i can study and make up my own mind about. Its a faith i can grow in. When i finally had a better understating of the philosophical groundings of the faith, Catholic “moral dogma” and the Catholic religion in general became reasonable and rationally defensible in a way that other religions are not. This has only strengthened my respect for the faith, to such a degree that it would be very difficult if not impossible to convince me to be an atheist. This is not because i believe blindly, but rather because i have found much rational truth and wisdom in Catholicism. So when i come up against difficult doctrines, i don’t just jump ship.

Even “Faith Alone” doesn’t have to be narrow minded in a negative sense, so long as it is willing to accept other forms of rational evidence that are demonstrated to be true.

However, religion can be narrow minded, cult-like, and destructive, in a very negative sense when it rejects interpretations that are showed to be reasonable while maintaining an interpretation that has been shown to be irrational and contrary to the truth. This is a truly narrow-minded and negative faith. Any religious interpretation or ideology that refuses to take in to account other forms of evidence, are narrow minded and poisonous.

Just look at Jehovah’s witness and blood transfusion. Thats a scary road to cult-hood.

However, if we are just talking about somebody maintaining a belief despite popular opinion to the contrary; then this has nothing to do with evidence but everything to do with ideology. In other words people who attempt to label religions and belief in the supernatural as “Narrow Minded” are usually hypocrites, since they are just as narrow minded in their atheistic views and opinions.

Al_Moritz · Oct 9, 2011

I agree. I have become convinced through discussions with atheists that they often cannot even understand theistic arguments because their mind is closed. You cannot consent to something that you do not understand, and atheists often reject theism because they do not even properly grasp the concepts surrounding God and His nature, and cannot even imagine them. They cannot imagine anything beyond scientific observation. As a result, while atheists typically accuse theists of engaging in ‘arguments from incredulity’ (sometimes justifiedly so, e.g. when it comes to evolution), ironically it is precisely atheists who engage in argumentation from incredulity as well, and perhaps even to a more profound and ultimate degree.

Al_Moritz · Oct 9, 2011

Right on

Dymphna82 · Oct 9, 2011

From my perspective, narrow-mindedness comes in all forms.

I was a liberal, Pagan priestess, pro-everything liberal, but against everything conservative or Christian. I used to deny Jesus, deny the Mother’s virginity, deny God, deny everything, simply because I was surrounded by people and read many books that skewed my way of thinking. I used to think conservatives were rednecks that want to force their ways on me. I hated them.

Somehow, throughout the years, I did a full 180. Now I feel sorry for all the things I said and am thankful God forgave me. And I no longer see liberal views as healthy. Many liberals are well meaning, but I think they are not looking on the short term.

I would prefer to agree to disagree with those whose viewpoints are different than my own, but it doesn’t seem entirely possible. It seems that I cannot argue with anyone that is on the far-left, pagan or atheist, without being called names, about my faith, my country and my God being insulted. It makes me wish to go to an abbey and just get away from it all for just a while, because the nastiness makes it so easy for me to return it with the same nastiness.

So anyway, I only find Christians narrow-minded when they are hateful. We have rules to live by, and ignoring them for the sake of looking all openminded to everyone else means putting this temporal world before God. Now, the Pagan is told to “live and let live,” the atheist chooses their personal philosophy, and the liberals should want freedom for all, so…they have no rules that should make them narrowminded in anyway. But beyond narrowmindedness, for them as well, the bigger problem is hate.

Jesus_123 · Oct 9, 2011

:bible1:
Carefully study to present thyself
approved unto
**God, **
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly handling the word of truth.
- 2 Timothy 2:15

+The definition presented above of “narrow minded” is . . . extremely flawed and hopelessly muddled . . . it broadly and wrongly . . . tries to mix what can be . . . clarity of succinct knowledge, understanding and belief re what is a truth . . . with . . . instant . . . “unfounded negative personal value judgments” . . . (bigoted, intolerant, or prejudiced) . . .

. . . totally unrelated to reality and the existence of discernable truth . . .

For example . . .

in order to become an intelligent good doctor and practice sound medicine one must carefully and specifically focus on and study the science of the . . . “narrow rigid” complexity of the truths, facts and formulas . . .of good medicine . . .
in order to become an intelligent good cook one must immerse oneself specifically and . . . “narrow” . . . one’s focus to learning . . . “rigid” truths, facts and formulas . . . about nutrition and foods . . . . for healthy delicious preparation of good food . . .
in order to become an intelligent good car mechanic one must thoroughly investigate and understand the . . . “narrow” . . . **“rigid” truths, facts and formulas **. . . regarding the complexity of the mechanics of cars and car engines . . . to become a good, safe and trustworthy auto mechanic . . .

To call all doctors, cooks and mechanics “bigoted, intolerant and prejudiced” based on their specific knowledge of truths is patently ridiculous . . . to accomplish any specific task on this earth . . . one must . . . “narrow” . . . ones focus and learn the “whats, hows and whys” regarding one’s particular chosen areas of interest . . . and study to become knowledgable and experienced in those fields of expertise . . . whether it is a little toddler learning the complexities of the “rigid” facts and formula of how to successfully walk on his or her own two feet rather than crawl . . . or a nuclear physicist applying a complex formula of “rigid” facts and formulas to successfully accomplish a task in his or her given chosen field of expertise . . . learning . . . truth . . . is accomplished ONLY by** “narrowing”** one’s focus and opening up to thoroughly learning the truth in so far as possible about a given reality . . .

What you stumbled upon in the above definition of “narrow minded” PiousTemplar . . . was incredibly faulty . . . disordered . . . reasoning on the part of the originator of that definition . . . which definition can only lead to . . . as its end . . . the conclusion that foolish blind ignorance of all subjects in life is the only way to not become “narrow minded” . . .

. . . and essentially accepting such a defnition would result in the temptation to throw out interest and awareness and the pursuit of interest in any and everything . . . including our . . . Wonderful God . . . and His beautifully designed vast universe and all its infinite truths of design . . . including the truths of our Catholic Christian Faith . . . and encourages the temptation for man to give up and drown in dark ignorance apart from the wonderful reality and knowledge of our loving God . . . as revealed through His Crucified Son . . . Jesus . . . **the Blessed Christ . . .God the Son . . . ** our Saviour and our Redeemer . . .

:bible1: Matthew 7:13

Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.

:bible1: Matthew 7:14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!

:bible1: Luke 13:24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.

Is it possible to have faith without being narrow minded?

PiousTemplar

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