Is it possible to have Mortal Sin after Baptism?

[Katholish]

Typically, when we speak of the sacrament of Baptism, we talk of about its cheif effects, among which are the washing away of Original Sin, making us adoptive sons of God, bestowing Sanctifying Grace, etc.

Is it possible, however, to approach Baptism in an unworthy manner, such that while the sacrament may be valid, you retain your Mortal Sins? Does Baptism wipe away all sins, or just the ones for which you are repentent?

I had always thought that it was impossible to have any sins left over after a valid Baptism, but I was recently told otherwise.

 

[Domnall]

Nope. Baptism frees you from all

“1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin. In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.”

That’s from the Catechism. God bless!

 

[shlomo3amrooh]

is it true that many old kings used to gamble on their life and get baptised right before they died?

 

[Orogeny]

is it true that many old kings used to gamble on their life and get baptised right before they died?

I don’t know about old kings, but it is certainly true that many people tried to time their baptism with the approach of death. You have to understand, we didn’t have a sacrament of reconciliation for a long time. The only sacrament that removed sin was baptism.

Peace

Tim

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Yes, I believe it is possible. Sin is only forgiven if it is repented of or if one would repent of it. It would be possible, according to my understanding, for an adult to present himself for baptism while deliberately witholding repentence from a sin, which would therby be unforgiven.

They would still receive a baptismal character and be a member of the mystical body (unlessthey also intend not to).

VC

 

[Bookcat]

It can be said that if one puts an obstacle in the way – the sacrament of baptism can be unfruitful (yet valid) (sacramentum valid sed informe).

It can later “revive” once the obstacle is removed (such as the person repents).

Now this hopefully would be a rather unlikely event for a person who is approaching baptism is seeking to become a Christian -to follow Christ and has at least imperfect contrition (readers can see Catechism -this can even be repentance out of fear of hell) and is not say intending to continue some gravely sinful thing like worshiping idols or something…

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1pl4YmkgX

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Kath,

See this thread here from 2009. I give a helpful quote from the Catechism of St Pius X.

VC

 

[Katholish]

Both Catechism quotes are very interesting, and seemingly quite contradictory on this point, which only seems to deepen my confusion.

Any more thoughts? If you hold that mortal sin cannot be retained through Baptism, how do you answer the Catechism of St. Pius X? If you hold that unrepentant mortal sin does persist, how do you handle the CCC?

 

[Bookcat]

Both Catechism quotes are very interesting, and seemingly quite contradictory on this point, which only seems to deepen my confusion.

Any more thoughts? If you hold that mortal sin cannot be retained through Baptism, how do you answer the Catechism of St. Pius X? If you hold that unrepentant mortal sin does persist, how do you handle the CCC?

There is no contradiction. The Catechism (CCC) is discussing the effects of Baptism. The wonderful nature and reality of Baptism (not that the other does not get to these things too )

The other is adding a further finer point that it is possible for a person to put an obstacle in the way – where the sacrament of baptism can be unfruitful (yet valid) (sacramentum valid sed informe).

Such can later “revive” once the obstacle is removed (such as the person repents).

Normally such should not be a question or an issue. One repents with faith and is baptized. For one coming for baptism usually is repentant with at least imperfect contrition and is seeking baptism not putting any obstacle in the way.

But if one gets into the finer aspects of what could happen when going into the theology of the sacraments then one runs upon this possibility in various texts.

It is not a contradiction it is only that the CCC does not mention all aspects that could be discussed when studying the Sacraments. An extremely rich text but it is not meant to say everything that could be said.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Both Catechism quotes are very interesting, and seemingly quite contradictory on this point, which only seems to deepen my confusion.

Any more thoughts? If you hold that mortal sin cannot be retained through Baptism, how do you answer the Catechism of St. Pius X? If you hold that unrepentant mortal sin does persist, how do you handle the CCC?

Kath,

It is simply that the CCC paragraph quoted above doesnt make any distinctions. It is similar to:

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God’s mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."4

Where we know we can distinguish cases were pardon isn’t obtained.

You know how it is. . . You have to suss out all the implications.

VC

 

[Katholish]

Kath,

It is simply that the CCC paragraph quoted above doesnt make any distinctions. It is similar to:

1422 "Those who approach the sacrament of Penance obtain pardon from God’s mercy for the offense committed against him, and are, at the same time, reconciled with the Church which they have wounded by their sins and which by charity, by example, and by prayer labors for their conversion."4

Where we know we can distinguish cases were pardon isn’t obtained.

You know how it is. . . You have to suss out all the implications.

VC

Possibly, but in the case of Penance, it is either valid and you receive pardon, or there is no sacrament at all. You cannot have a valid confession and not receive pardon for all mortal sins (all venial sins too, I thought, but that is actually at issue as part of this larger question about Baptism).

 

[Bookcat]

Possibly, but in the case of Penance, it is either valid and you receive pardon, or there is no sacrament at all. You cannot have a valid confession and not receive pardon for all mortal sins (all venial sins too, I thought, but that is actually at issue as part of this larger question about Baptism).

Yes if one say hides a mortal sin in confession or is not repentant of it --no sins are absolved in confession. And there is no valid sacrament conferred.

The Sacrament of Baptism is a “Character Sacrament” it works differently than Confession in this regard. It imprints the character… the seal the sphragis on the soul. That cannot be removed.

One would receive the Sacrament but one would be putting an obstacle in the way – the sacrament of baptism can be unfruitful (yet valid) (sacramentum valid sed informe).

Later the effects can “revive” (a valid baptism cannot be repeated).

 

[NurseCatechumen]

I’m about to be baptized at the Easter vigil and we were told by our RCIA teachers that baptism will wash away all of our sins up to this point. We are entering into a new life and washing away the old. It was mentioned, however, that if we continue to have a specific sin on our mind following our baptism, we are welcome to confess it to the priest following our baptism, just to help us move on emotionally and mentally, if it is needed.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Possibly, but in the case of Penance, it is either valid and you receive pardon, or there is no sacrament at all. You cannot have a valid confession and not receive pardon for all mortal sins (all venial sins too, I thought, but that is actually at issue as part of this larger question about Baptism).

Katholish,

Lets distinguish. I offered that catechism passage for the limited purpose of showing how a passage in the catechism can be speaking in generalities and not as analogy between the sacrament of baptism (which we are discussing) and the sacrament of penance (which that catechism passage referred to, though incidentally).

The point was to show you that there a places in the catchism (many) where a cursory reading woud lead you to a wrong conclusion. In my example one may erroneous claim tht anyone who “approaches the sacrament of pennance obtains pardon”. (we know tht isnt the case). Likewise, the CCC passage which states that “by baptism all sins are forgiven” doesn’t mean that simply. It means, and is consistent with, that one can remain in mortal sin after baptism if one is deliberately unrepentant of a mortal sin.

Any help?
VC

 

[Katholish]

Yes, Verbum Caro, you have been very helpful, the St. Pius X Catechism quote especially. Which led me to the Catechism of the Council of Trent (a little more authoritative) which says essentially the same thing. I now officially accept it as true, however, I think many Catholics would be a little surprised to find it out, not that it isn’t logical.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

It can be surprising! (I often am surprised)

An equally surprising corollary might be that one could receive more grace than another in baptism due to greater devotion.

VC

 

[Bookcat]

I’m about to be baptized at the Easter vigil and we were told by our RCIA teachers that baptism will wash away all of our sins up to this point. We are entering into a new life and washing away the old. It was mentioned, however, that if we continue to have a specific sin on our mind following our baptism, we are welcome to confess it to the priest following our baptism, just to help us move on emotionally and mentally, if it is needed.

My understanding is that such sins --that is sins prior to baptism (and thus which have been “washed away”) are then *insufficient *matter for confession. So if one mentioned only such sins one could not be absolved. One needs to confess sins since ones baptism…but of course there will be some venial sin that will happen soon.

(of course I am referring to Baptism per se…not to “conditional baptism” here…then there would be a needful confession of at least any mortal sins…but that is a different matter)

 

[Verbum_Caro]

My understanding is that such sins --that is sins prior to baptism (and thus which have been “washed away”) are then *insufficient *matter for confession. So if one mentioned only such sins one could not be absolved. One needs to confess sins since ones baptism…but of course there will be some venial sin that will happen soon.

(of course I am referring to Baptism per se…not to “conditional baptism” here…then there would be a needful confession of at least any mortal sins…but that is a different matter)

Mortal sins already forgiven are sufficient remote matter for confession. Such a “confession of devotion” could partake of the sacramental grace offred.

(I’m not sppeaking to the merits of confessing after baptism in any individuals case)

 

[Bookcat]

Mortal sins already forgiven are sufficient remote matter for confession. Such a “confession of devotion” could partake of the sacramental grace offred.

(I’m not sppeaking to the merits of confessing after baptism in any individuals case)

Yes they are sufficient matter when their forgiveness was via confession and absolution.

Not when it was because they were sins committedprior to baptism.

My understanding is that they are in that case *not sufficient *matter for confession.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Yes they are sufficient matter when their forgiveness was via confession and absolution.

Not when it was because they were sins committedprior to baptism.

My understanding is that they are in that case *not sufficient *matter for confession.

That’s intersting. How did you come by that understanding?

Thanks,
VC