Is it possible to love a person who has a personality disorder?

[WaitingForJesus]

I have run across someone who went on Dr. Phil after having authored “Confessions of a Sociopath”, but it is not clear whether this was a true sociopath, a narcissist looking for attention, or what. Martha Stout, author of “The Sociopath Next Door” believes that the best thing to do with a sociopath is to stay as far off their radar as possible. Part of her most defining mark of a sociopath, however, is not their lack of emotional empathy, but rather a person who gives themselves permission to deceive, and especially permission to deceive in order to manipulate, even when the manipulation does not seem to be directly self-serving. Her rule is that when you’re dealing with a “Three-Timer”–that is, someone who has deceived you on something important on more than three separate occasions–you should always consider their honesty suspect after that and avoid them accordingly. While it may be OK to allow a Three-Timer, sociopath or not, back into your life if they are amending themselves, I do think it is wise to always remember when someone has earned a reputation for deceit. That will always be a temptation for them, and it is not wise to ever forget that. Even if they are fully in your life, a healthy sense of suspicion is something that the habitual liar ought to accept as a matter of course, even after they have amended their lives.

Good advice to mantain a healthy sense of suspicion even if a habitual liar seems to have changed! I am not sure about that Martha Stout definition though. It seems so broad that it could include many others who have other problems. Narcissists deceive. So do those with BPD. So do alcoholics, drug addicts and teenagers for that matter.

 

[mommamaree]

I have run across someone who went on Dr. Phil after having authored “Confessions of a Sociopath”, but it is not clear whether this was a true sociopath, a narcissist looking for attention, or what. Martha Stout, author of “The Sociopath Next Door” believes that the best thing to do with a sociopath is to stay as far off their radar as possible. Part of her most defining mark of a sociopath, however, is not their lack of emotional empathy, but rather a person who gives themselves permission to deceive, and especially permission to deceive in order to manipulate, even when the manipulation does not seem to be directly self-serving. Her rule is that when you’re dealing with a “Three-Timer”–that is, someone who has deceived you on something important on more than three separate occasions–you should always consider their honesty suspect after that and avoid them accordingly. While it may be OK to allow a Three-Timer, sociopath or not, back into your life if they are amending themselves, I do think it is wise to always remember when someone has earned a reputation for deceit. That will always be a temptation for them, and it is not wise to ever forget that. Even if they are fully in your life, a healthy sense of suspicion is something that the habitual liar ought to accept as a matter of course, even after they have amended their lives.

I am not dealing with a Three-Timer, but rather a “70x7 Timer”. So I will always have to suspect anything that is said or done. That still does not lead me to desire no contact ever. I have decided to allow written communication at the present time, which is the level of contact I feel safe with after my 6-month No Contact period. I have no reason to believe that she is amending her life. But in order to maintain contact with my niece, whom I cannot just callously consider to be collateral damage in all of this, I must have some minimal form of functional written communication with my mother. On top of that, I do desire to know that she is alive and how things are going for her.
But yes, I will always be suspicious of her. My sister and I have been working very hard to repair the damage done to our relationship by our mother, and during recent conversations, we both discovered just how much our mother has been lying about us to the other, and trying to drive a wedge between us. She also badmouths us behind our back, making up huge tales of woe done to her by the other. We are both wising up, and I appreciate being able to finally develop my adult friendship with my sister without having to go through my mother all the time.
I am learning a lot about relationships through all of this, though. I am learning discretion, prudence, compassion, consideration, discernment, and many more virtues. So I will thank God and work through my trials, trying to cling to Him and allow Him to mold me into a better person, a better friend, better sister, better wife and mother, and a better daughter to my disturbed mother.

 

[Nimzovik]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

A borderline is a sinner just like we all are… Perhaps a little more pronounced in it’s features. Separate the client from the sickness. Separate the sinner from the sin. There -, somewhere, is *perhaps. *an actual person in there.

It is quite possible that the Borderline person had a mother that was borderline too! It is all too sad …

Yes… It* will* stretch you top associate with this person. You will start to learn to think like they do. (Just do not fall into the abyss) It is possible it is an opportunity for great growth. However! Know when to walk away. recognize your limitations.

Also here is a** hint**: Look for the what I call the ‘blank inward stare’ on your associate. Often it is a sign that they are experiencing ‘conflicting programming.’ they may be trying to figure their emotional selves out. Deep down inside many have some I reiterate some degree of insight. I have seen some actually be quite brave in confronting themselves.

Note as well. Borderlines is the one Dx that may improve with age.

good luck.

 

[Morwenna]

Hi mommamaree,

I posted something to you on another of your threads, and since I ended up being the very last poster to that thread (that’s me, always late to the party! ) I’m not sure if you ever saw it.

I really do think you may find this to be helpful, so I’m going to copy that post below:

Morwenna:

Hi mommamaree

If don’t mind a non-parent putting her :twocents: in, may I recommend a book to you? The author is a non-Catholic Christian, who suffered through a childhood dominated by a toxic mother; these childhood experiences have had profound effects on her throughout her life, as a woman and as a parent. She faced challenges in becoming a different kind of parent than her own mother had been for her.

Over a period of many years, she experienced healing. I found her story very powerful and very moving. Here is the link if you’re interested:

Stormie: A Story of Forgiveness and Healing

It’s only 192 pages, so you’ll probably be able to get through it quickly, but the impact is much greater than its small size would indicate! I found my copy at a local Christian bookstore, but you can also buy it online at B&N or other booksellers.

 

[EasterJoy]

I am not dealing with a Three-Timer, but rather a “70x7 Timer”. So I will always have to suspect anything that is said or done. That still does not lead me to desire no contact ever. I have decided to allow written communication at the present time, which is the level of contact I feel safe with after my 6-month No Contact period. I have no reason to believe that she is amending her life. But in order to maintain contact with my niece, whom I cannot just callously consider to be collateral damage in all of this, I must have some minimal form of functional written communication with my mother. On top of that, I do desire to know that she is alive and how things are going for her.
But yes, I will always be suspicious of her. My sister and I have been working very hard to repair the damage done to our relationship by our mother, and during recent conversations, we both discovered just how much our mother has been lying about us to the other, and trying to drive a wedge between us. She also badmouths us behind our back, making up huge tales of woe done to her by the other. We are both wising up, and I appreciate being able to finally develop my adult friendship with my sister without having to go through my mother all the time.
I am learning a lot about relationships through all of this, though. I am learning discretion, prudence, compassion, consideration, discernment, and many more virtues. So I will thank God and work through my trials, trying to cling to Him and allow Him to mold me into a better person, a better friend, better sister, better wife and mother, and a better daughter to my disturbed mother.

I’m glad things are working out with your sister. That is excellent news, even if it is still an incomplete reconciliation. You two both know how to put yourself in your niece’s position, and how much and what kind of relationships you’d want family members not living with you to have had with your mother when you were in something like your niece’s situation. You’ll know what you would have wanted if you had been your mother’s granddaughters, instead of her daughters.

That is the way in which you are the experts here–use that! If you and your sister put yourselves in your niece’s position, you’ll have a better idea than any of us what responses will damage her, what responses will not significantly help her, and what responses will have some hope of helping her. If you and your mother are having contacts that get your mother all stirred up and on the warpath, after all, that might not be in your niece’s interest, but you would know whether just a little contact with your other relatives were worth the drama with your mom when that contact happened. You’ll know whether it made a lot of difference in the big picture of her daily complaints and manipulations. You can’t translate the two situations exactly, but I’d use what you two know as the most realistic guides that anyone is likely to give you to the behavioral world of your mom. Be unflinchingly honest, use your imagination as to what the possibilities are, and I think that will be better than anything we can say. Not perfect, not infallible, but the best that you’re likely to get.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

But yes, I will always be suspicious of her. My sister and I have been working very hard to repair the damage done to our relationship by our mother, and during recent conversations, we both discovered just how much our mother has been lying about us to the other, and trying to drive a wedge between us. She also badmouths us behind our back, making up huge tales of woe done to her by the other. We are both wising up, and I appreciate being able to finally develop my adult friendship with my sister without having to go through my mother all the time.

That behavior sounds very familiar to me, although the attempts were to drive wedges between me and his family, me and my family, me and our daughter. It isn’t necessarily sociopathic. It sounds like you and your sister now understand that you should not listen to your mother when forming opinions about others. That’s excellent. And, there is nothing wrong with being suspicious. You must trust your own judgment. Deep down people that do these things feel as if they must not be lovable. They want to make you feel sorry for them so that you will make them feel better about themselves. They have no good feelings about themselves on their own. That is why experiencing the love of God can be so powerful for them.

I am confused as to why you must go through your mother to have contact with your niece. Does your niece live with your mother? Is she alone with your mother? Where are her parents? If your niece is alone with your mother, then you and your sister should do what you can to maintain contact and ensure your niece knows that her aunts love and care about her. If you don’t, she will be the victim here as your mother will surely tell her that you obviously don’t care about her since you don’t write, call, visit. In fact, if you are only writing to the niece, your mother probably isn’t giving her the letters.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

For a emotionally healthy human being, loving one’s family members is the normal and natural way of things, correct? I am curious about when a healthy individual is closely related to a disturbed individual. The healthy individual is likely to have deep love for the disturbed individual, even if the disturbed individual is incapable of love and is possibly a dangerous or toxic person, isn’t that true?
When this happens, when the healthy individual is grieving because of making a tough decision to cease contact with the disturbed individual, and their feelings of love for this person become overwhelming, and the person becomes confused about their decision, what then can a healthy individual do? Does the fact that they love the disturbed individual mean that they should maintain contact of sorts? What can a healthy individual do when love compels them to do what prudence would forbid, namely, reconcile without any indication of a genuine desire to get treatment for severe personality disorder on the part of the disturbed individual? What can the healthy person do with that love, when they cannot give it directly to their disturbed loved one through word and deed? How can the healthy person not lose their head and do something imprudent and expose themselves to further abuse? What about when there exists a further complication of the disturbed individual being the guardian of an innocent minor child relative, with whom a relationship is both desired and necessary?
I know that these are many and challenging questions, and that I have spoken in generalities here. I did not know any other way to get to the heart of my troubles right now, except to start with these questions. I am willing to clarify anything that is not understood, and I can give supportive details as necessary. Please help with advice in this matter. Thank you very much.

I think the healthy individual may not be as healthy as they believe themselves to be. I think it’s easy for a personality disordered person to manipulate others until they get their desired results. I think it’s easy at some point to feel guilty and also long for that ideal person that you always wanted your loved one to be. Of course they can never BE that ideal, but you always long for it to happen.

I would highly recommend a detached outsider to advise on what is happening inside you, as well as with the relationship. Of course if you have no access to your sibling except through the person with the disorder, that is going to be a problem. That personality disordered person is likely going to hold your sibling or you hostage unless you give her what she wants, which is access to abusing you. Not a good idea.

I would go through a 3rd party for any communication. You can only do as much as you can do, and your main job is to protect yourself and your family from further harm. You cannot help your sibling unless you are strong yourself - the analogy of putting on your oxygen mask before you try to help others comes to mind.

It’s extremely difficult to keep one’s boundaries up when the person SHOULD BE the closest person in one’s life. The reality is completely different.

Talk to your therapist about this. Talk to your husband. Get other detached advice. Perhaps a family law attorney could be helpful. Maybe there are minor things that could be negotiated in order for you to be able to see your sibling. Maybe not. Just be careful. You’ve made great strides but you will always be susceptible to that siren song.

 

[chevalier]

A borderline person can be quite lovable, though I won’t go into details, and so can be people with other disorders. Among the many judgments of marriage tribunals I read one winter (url=http://www.cormacburke.or.ke/]here, I found something to the effect that the Catholic standard of normalcy allows for light to moderate disorders. Personally, I doubt there are that many people without at least some symptoms of one or two (or three) light ones. It’s like, unless you’ve grown up in a sheltered environment, you’re bound to have incurred a bunch of traumas to haunt you. On the other hand, if you’ve grown up in a sheltered environment without being exposed to traumas, then that’s already a problem and you’re en route for more problems. Either way, there’s gotta be something in everybody. Some people get it harder. We all need others to have patience, but some people need more patience than others.

And yes, illness means it’s not their fault to the extent they are prevented from choosing. It’s not the same as if a healthy person chose to act up.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

And yes, illness means it’s not their fault to the extent they are prevented from choosing. It’s not the same as if a healthy person chose to act up.

I don’t think that anyone is claiming otherwise. But the problem is what to do with the person who is toxic. it doesn’t make a difference if they are responsible for their condition or not. The fact is that the person causes a lot of damage to the OP.

 

[ellzeena]

The disturbed person is my mother. I am adult, with a home and a family of my own, so I am not sharing a household with her. I strongly desire to maintain contact with her, but thus far, that has been so harmful that I have had to go on “sabbatical”, to borrow a phrase from another poster here that helped me last year, so that I could heal and distance myself from the maltreatment and begin to learn how to set and enforce my own personal boundaries. I have come a long way in a half year, and yet I know that I still have a long way to go. You mention sociopathy…unfortunately, that is what we suspect she might have. I don’t want to believe that of her, but it fits the descriptions given in a couple of books that I have read about personality disorders. Thankfully, however, she is not a violent sociopath. I know that, in this life, I will never ever ever be able to trust her. I just want to be able to have simple conversations with her in the future, and of course, I have hope for heaven for both her and myself.

I hope that for you, as well. You are a loving soul and this is quite painful for you. I had a similar problem with my “mother”. Being an only child, I had to take her in twice (into my home), the last time during an interval of intense horror and tragedy in my life. It took me 20 years of on and off psychotherapy to come to terms with the harm done to me by that person. I didn’t truly realize how “bad” a “mother” she was until I had my own child, at age 40. You know, I believe there is God’s purpose in all of this suffering we do, and of course He loves your mother as much as He loves you or me or anyone of us (I know how hard that is to understand!) You seem to be very enlightened and are proceeding cautiously but with charity and an ultimate purpose of maintaining (or trying to) a HEALTHY relationship with this woman who is not, herself, healthy or capable of a healthy relationship. I give you enormous credit for your maturity, self awareness, etc. and think you will succeed, but not without self condemnation (SO much a part of this). Peace.

 

[Christy_Beth]

I think that “toxic” might be hard to pin down. Sure, there are those who we shouldn’t hang out with. But how do we choose when the person is mentally ill? At one time some may have thought me a “toxic” person. I didn’t want to be there, I didn’t want to cause harm. I just didn’t have my mental health stuff down yet. I’m finally gaining understanding and getting some help on how to have healthier relationships. I have a long way to go, but I’ve at least started on the path.

As for right now, there is much of me that wants a very close relationship with someone. But if I tried that, I don’t think it would work. Not right now. I don’t feel completely comfortable about the idea. I might end up becoming a “toxic” person in that sort of relationship. It isn’t about choosing to be that way, it’s about being that way and needing more help to learn the behaviors considered acceptable in relationships. And it also means learning healthy boundaries. Most of this I should have learned growning up, but my parents, especially my dad were/are toxic. My dad died in 2001, and my mom has since remarried. It has taken me all these years to get through to her that some of my behavior is related to my mental illness. But I still have to learn how to respond better to her stuff.

It’s tough. But for someone to say that only a saint could get along with someone like me is wrong. Jesus said we are to love everyone, not just those who mak us feel good. He said that the disciples are not over the master, and the student is not over the teacher. He is the master and teacher, we are the disciples and students. He loved everyone, including those who tortured him and put him to death. He even loved/loves Judas. Judas, who walked with him for three years, then betrayed him. Talk about being stabbed in the back! We are to love always and forgive always. But, yes, we need to set healthy boundaries. But that doesn’t mean we are to purposely exclude people in our lives. Unless that person is a danger to our own physical, or mental/emotional, heath. In some cases, intervention can be brought into play. Help can restore the relationship.

May God bless us all and lead us down the path he wants us to take. And may we be willing sheep to trust our divine shepherd and willingly follow.

 

[catholicman76]

Is it possible to love a person who has a personality disorder?

From my standpoint and experience yes it… and I would even stay it is possible to do it unconditionally possible to love a person with a “personality disorder”.

The is a major downfall to my statement, I am no sure it is possible to have a fruitful and loving marriage to someone that has a personality disorder.

I am 5 years into a marriage with my wife that I now believe has personalty disorder. It took 4 years to even make counseling.

Although she in individual counseling, many of the “issues”, that a possible personality have created in our marriage we can not even being working on yet. I asked the marriage counseling can we discuss issues x, x, and x. I was told until your wife gets more therapy we will only waste our time. I asked what can I as the husband do better and again I was told "until she gets more therapy\counseling we will only create more problems.

I do know ever case is different… but case summing it up this is what happening

Years of marriage 1-4 complete misery…
4-6 complete misery and confusion in counseling

from what I have learned
I am looking at several more years of her in counseling before we may even be able to get a true diagnoses. Then more years of treatment…

So I will be looking at never even truly starting my marriage until year maybe 8.

 

[jazzy0710]

For a emotionally healthy human being, loving one’s family members is the normal and natural way of things, correct? I am curious about when a healthy individual is closely related to a disturbed individual. The healthy individual is likely to have deep love for the disturbed individual, even if the disturbed individual is incapable of love and is possibly a dangerous or toxic person, isn’t that true?
When this happens, when the healthy individual is grieving because of making a tough decision to cease contact with the disturbed individual, and their feelings of love for this person become overwhelming, and the person becomes confused about their decision, what then can a healthy individual do? Does the fact that they love the disturbed individual mean that they should maintain contact of sorts? What can a healthy individual do when love compels them to do what prudence would forbid, namely, reconcile without any indication of a genuine desire to get treatment for severe personality disorder on the part of the disturbed individual? What can the healthy person do with that love, when they cannot give it directly to their disturbed loved one through word and deed? How can the healthy person not lose their head and do something imprudent and expose themselves to further abuse? What about when there exists a further complication of the disturbed individual being the guardian of an innocent minor child relative, with whom a relationship is both desired and necessary?
I know that these are many and challenging questions, and that I have spoken in generalities here. I did not know any other way to get to the heart of my troubles right now, except to start with these questions. I am willing to clarify anything that is not understood, and I can give supportive details as necessary. Please help with advice in this matter. Thank you very much.

I have asked myself a lot of the same questions. I would highly reccomend that you read “Boundaries” by Cloud and Townsend. It explained a lot of that. Great read.

 

[TinyButterfly]

I second Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend. EXCELLENT book.

Walking on Eggshells, which someone mentioned upthread, is also very good.

I wanted to recommend Understanding the Borderline Mother by Christine Ann Lawson. Very good.

Forgiving does not mean you have to let the person continue to hurt you. You have the right to protect yourself and your family. :hug1:

 

[Demetra2]

I often wonder about the same thing.

There is something unnatural about ending contact with close family, it’s just not supposed to be like that. But with some people there is just no other way if one wants to remain sane. I think that ideally a balance should be struck where the relationship with the disturbed individual is superficial and there are very clear boundaries in place. But in reality people with personality disorders don’t understand boundaries and don’t know how to behave towards other people. It tends to be their way or no way.

For that reason I ended contact with my disturbed individual because his way was just a bit too crazy and I couldn’t deal with it anymore. I have recently realised that I don’t love this person for who they are, but I love an imaginary person. I fantasise about what this person should have been for me and feel such longing and sadness. But then reality kicks in and I remember what I was dealing with and how it affect me and my family. I have managed to let go of this need to have them in my life by forgiving them, wishing them well and by praying for them. Some days are really hard and I find the situation difficult. I just have to remind myself what the alternative would be if we reconciled.

So I don’t really have an answer on what to do except to hand it over to God, to pray and to simply wait for the time being. Maybe you need more than 6 months to figure it out. Have you asked Mary who is your spiritual mother to help you?

Thank you for this. If you can’t have a relationship with someone you can always pray for them in earnest. You may be the only person who cares enough to pray for that difficult person and that effort is not wasted. These situations bring sadness and guilt but speaking to a good Catholic therapist and a priest can give you direction on how to proceed.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Thank you for this. If you can’t have a relationship with someone you can always pray for them in earnest. You may be the only person who cares enough to pray for that difficult person and that effort is not wasted. These situations bring sadness and guilt but speaking to a good Catholic therapist and a priest can give you direction on how to proceed.

I’m so glad you found my post helpful.

It really is a difficult situation, and you are right, I am certain that I am the only one praying for this person. I think one day I will go back to counselling (with a Christian therapist) and maybe that will help me close this chapter. I’m still in a weird place emotionally. I think it takes years to heal and truly let go.

 

[Convert_in_99]

I might be in the minority here, but…

I have a personality disorder, OCD, GAD (complete with panic attacks), and chronic depression.

I am also MARRIED and have been for 7 years now. To a normal, mentally healthy man.

Is it hard for him? Of course! But he loves me so much that he weathers the bad days to cherish the good ones. He loves me with the same kind of love that Christ loves me. Selfless, self-sacrifical love. On top of that he is still physically and romantically attracted to me.

I am blessed beyond measure. I am in regular ongoing counseling, therapy, and am on several medications. I am learning to grow in ways I never dreamed of when I was dealing with this lifelong cross on my own (or before that with my family.)

That being said we don’t have any children due to infertility issues on my part. This has, granted, made the adjustments to married life much easier for both him and I. Even so, we do hope to adopt a child one day.

So in short, it IS possible to love, even in a marital way, someone with a personality disorder (or any mental illness) for that matter.

I think the major key for us is my WILLINGNESS to go to counseling, therapy and be on several strong medications. That and our shared belief and love of God and prayer.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Gee, it sounds like you have all the things I have. Only, my one marriage didn’t work out. That was years before my diagnosis and was probably unrelated to my illness. I just married someone who was truly toxic. I won’t go into details, but it was a horror. And he was, supposedly, the “normal” person.

So, it is possible to love someone with problems. You just have to face the problems and deal with them when they show up. Even with a “normal” couple, there will still be problems. No one is immune to that. Let’s face facts, there is no real fairy tale ending to any relationship. It all takes work on both sides. :yup:

 

[Convert_in_99]

I am so sorry your marriage didn’t work out. :hug3: Believe me I know how hard it is to meet, let alone keep friends with these dreaded illnesses looming over your head. Most of my “friendships” lasted a few months if I was lucky, and that is just friends in general. The only boyfriends I had took advantage of me, and those that were decent were never attracted to me.

 

[Christy_Beth]

Well, I’m 50 but haven’t given up all hope yet. I’m trying to keep the mindset that God wants me single, but that He might have someone for me in the future. In the mean time, I work on me, and am trying to let God do His work in me as well.