Is it possible to see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non-Catholics?

[legaleagle]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Is it possible to see the holy spirit working on non-Catholics? Everyday. Yes.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

God is not bound by our labels.

 

[DavidMark]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

I hope to God you conclude, that just as all are created by God, God cares for all, loves all, and they love Him! (Some ) The Holy Spirit is like the wind that cannot be contained.

 

[sckcd]

Certainly. God works through all true Christians, whether they be Catholic, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc. Their ways of worship may differ, but their core beliefs are the same (the Trinity, Jesus dying for our sins, etc.)

 

[DavidMark]

It’s more than that. The Holy Spirit is the radiance of the spiritual Sun. It has never been withheld from the entire world of being! Everyone benefits from it. Some are aware and some aren’t, but all partake of its bounties! It is through this mysterious and wonderful agency that all have coming into being. Some have great capacity, some little, some reflect perfectly, and others are like stones, but all things are warmed by it, to the degree of their receptivity, just like the recipients of the outward sun. God is the All-Bountiful; we should emulate that.

 

[puzzleannie]

certainly it is possible to see visible signs that the Holy Spirit is moving in the lives of individual non-Catholics, or even in congregations at times. However, if that person or congregation claims that the Holy Spirit is telling them something contrary to Catholic doctrine and practice, they are wrong. The Holy Spirit cannon work against himself, and since it is he who guides and protects the Catholic Church from teaching error, their claim by definition must be wrong.

 

[marthagreys]

He worked through both a rock and a donkey - He can work through anyone or anything!

 

[DavidMark]

He worked through both a rock and a donkey - He can work through anyone or anything!

Isn’t that wonderful Martha? Nuff said!

 

[PJM]

=legaleagle;5964443]I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

Welcome Home friend:thumbsup:

The short answer is absolutely

The reason is that "Those who have “more” [grace available to them…Catholics] will be judged far more severly than those who do not [for reasons ONLY GOD understands] have these same opportunities.

Look for example at the Grahams or Dr. Dobson of FOtF… absolutely Holy Spirit Guided!

God is the giver of all good things!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[DavidMark]

Because I am Baha’i, I share things in only a few threads from what I know.

Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. (Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 26)

At this hour, so liberal is the outpouring of Its grace that the holy Spirit itself is envious!(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 60)

 

[fdesales]

Because I am Baha’i, I share things in only a few threads from what I know.

Say: The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. (Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 26)

At this hour, so liberal is the outpouring of Its grace that the holy Spirit itself is envious!(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 60)

It is impossible for God, who is Love, to be “envious”. The definition of love is the pouring out of self for the sake of the other. Why would the Spirit, Love, be envious of self-giving? HE is the pouring!

Regards

 

[FightingFat]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

Of course they have the Holy Spirit, they love and serve God, the receive grace and they enjoy the benefits of that grace working in their lives, divinising them! The sacraments just make this process easier and allow you to be closer to God!

 

[DavidMark]

It is impossible for God, who is Love, to be “envious”. The definition of love is the pouring out of self for the sake of the other. Why would the Spirit, Love, be envious of self-giving? HE is the pouring! Regards

Hi fdesales, thanks for answering.
It is for each person to try to pursue or not.
It is my understanding that God cannot run out of mysteries to reveal to us;
and what we thought to be cut in stone becomes dust blown in the wind.
Those passages were about the dawn of the Most Great Spirit in the world,
which is similar to the return of the landowner in the parable of the wicked husbandmen in Matthew 21:33-46. Nothing will stop him from executing justice, and it might seem ‘unfair’ to some, but it is his right.

Abdu’l-Bahá said: “Divine things are too deep to be expressed by common words.
The heavenly teachings are expressed in parable in order to be understood and preserved for ages to come. When the spiritually minded dive deeply into the ocean of their meaning they bring to the surface the pearls of their inner significance.”

Have a great Thanksgiving!

 

[peary]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

As Jesus said to Nicodemus, “The wind blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

I would answer that, even with Protestants, it begins with Baptism. As Peter says in Scripture, “Baptism saves you” (1 Peter 3:21). Baptism does a lot of things. Not only does it take away the stain of Original Sin on our souls, but it also infuses us with Sanctifying Grace, which is the supernatural grace we need to have to exist in Heaven. Grace is given to us through the mercy of God. Just because one isn’t Catholic doesn’t mean that Grace does not affect their lives, or that the Spirit cannot find a home within the soul. God’s mercy is based on His love for us. Just because they may not have the sacraments doesn’t mean that Grace is not present to them. They are probably experiencing actual grace which, though it does not stay within oneself, gives one the impetus to seek sanctifying grace.The Sacraments of the Church are the avenue for us to absorb sanctifying grace. The only thing I can think of is that God gave them a taste of this grace which had the affect of turning them to Him. Be grateful.

 

[fdesales]

Hi fdesales, thanks for answering.
It is for each person to try to pursue or not.
It is my understanding that God cannot run out of mysteries to reveal to us;
and what we thought to be cut in stone becomes dust blown in the wind.

David

While God certainly is mysterious and we can never know fully about Him, I disagree that “what we thought to be cut in stone becomes dust…” God desires for us to know the truth. In addition, God sent Apostles to teach this truth. Thus, we can have points of reference on bits and pieces about who God is and what He desires from us. We can have anchors to rest our faith upon, rather than wondering if we are building upon sand.

Those passages were about the dawn of the Most Great Spirit in the world,
which is similar to the return of the landowner in the parable of the wicked husbandmen in Matthew 21:33-46. Nothing will stop him from executing justice, and it might seem ‘unfair’ to some, but it is his right.

I have a feeling that our idea of “the Most Great Spirit” differs. As such, I don’t believe we can attach anthropomorphic views on God’s Spirit (being envious). I would think that the comment is more analogical, rather than ontological, an attempt by “Baha’u’llah” to understand God using human emotions…

My point is to clarify that God does not have such emotions of envy.

Abdu’l-Bahá said: “Divine things are too deep to be expressed by common words.
The heavenly teachings are expressed in parable in order to be understood and preserved for ages to come. When the spiritually minded dive deeply into the ocean of their meaning they bring to the surface the pearls of their inner significance.”

Indeed, exactly what I am saying, I agree with Abdu’l-Baha here. We have to be careful about what we say about God.

Regards

 

[fisherman_carl]

I think that truth is truth regardless if you are in a Catholic church or in a Protestant Church, the truth of the gospel is the same. Salvation is by grace (Eph 2:18) and we could never be good enough alone to earn it. We are not saved because of learning doctrine (or knowledge which puffs up) we are saved by receiving and responding to God’s grace. Yes there are doctrinal differences between churches but as scripture says, “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom 10:13)”. That scripture does not make distinction between denominations, it says anyone.

 

[fdesales]

I think that truth is truth regardless if you are in a Catholic church or in a Protestant Church, the truth of the gospel is the same. Salvation is by grace (Eph 2:18) and we could never be good enough alone to earn it. We are not saved because of learning doctrine (or knowledge which puffs up) we are saved by receiving and responding to God’s grace. Yes there are doctrinal differences between churches but as scripture says, “For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom 10:13)”. That scripture does not make distinction between denominations, it says anyone.

There is only one truth, and Protestants and Catholics do not teach the same Gospel.

Yes, salvation is by grace, but that is not the heart of the Gospel. Paul does not place salvation at the heart of his teaching. That is a Protestant focus, not Paul’s. Paul’s Gospel is first Christological before it is soteriological.

As to everyone calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus also said something about this…

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

After reading Paul, would you say he thought that Judaizers were saved???

Regards

 

[fisherman_carl]

There is only one truth, and Protestants and Catholics do not teach the same Gospel.

Yes, salvation is by grace, but that is not the heart of the Gospel. Paul does not place salvation at the heart of his teaching. That is a Protestant focus, not Paul’s. Paul’s Gospel is first Christological before it is soteriological.

As to everyone calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus also said something about this…

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

After reading Paul, would you say he thought that Judaizers were saved???

Regards

So are you saying that Protestants can’t be saved. That’s not what the Catholic church teaches. Scripture says that anyone who has the Spirit of Christ are Sons of God. The gospel is the same because the gospel is a person - Jesus Christ. Anyone who does God’s will is someone who lives by the Spirit whether they be Catholic or Protestant. But if we live by the flesh we shall die.

 

[fdesales]

So are you saying that Protestants can’t be saved. That’s not what the Catholic church teaches.

That is certainly not what I am saying! I am fully aware and actively teach on Protestant forums the teachings of the Church expressed in Lumen Gentium in regards to our separated brothers…

Let’s look at what I wrote again, more closely:

There is only one truth, and Protestants and Catholics do not teach the same Gospel.

That is indisputable, we don’t teach the same thing.

*Yes, salvation is by grace, but that is not the heart of the Gospel. Paul does not place salvation at the heart of his teaching. That is a Protestant focus, not Paul’s. Paul’s Gospel is first Christological before it is soteriological. *

This is a statement of the myopic Protestant focus, upon “justification by faith”. Soteriology is not the primary focus of any writer of the New Testament. Regardless, though, this is not a statement on who can be saved and who cannot…

*As to everyone calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus also said something about this…

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23*

This applies to Catholics who go to Mass every Sunday, as well…

After reading Paul, would you say he thought that Judaizers were saved???

This is the polemics of Paul. Those who preach another Gospel were preaching a false gospel. To Paul, teaching a false gospel meant there were serious issues responsible, issues of schism and dissension. Paul said such things are of the flesh, not of the Lord.

The question then, is whether these Judaizers were what we would call “invincibly ignorant” as most of our separated brothers are… The teacher of a false gospel is in danger of losing their soul, being a wolf among the sheep. John, Peter, Jude and Paul are pretty clear on where the false preacher stands - at least according to their polemic language. They appear to attack those who SHOULD know better but choose to follow another “gospel” for preference of their mosaic law.

I would think most Protestants would be clear of that charge, since very few KNOW Catholicism well enough to make an informed decision… Even those who WERE Catholic hardly knew what Catholicism actually taught (again, my experiences from interacting with many of them.)

Scripture says that anyone who has the Spirit of Christ are Sons of God. The gospel is the same because the gospel is a person - Jesus Christ. Anyone who does God’s will is someone who lives by the Spirit whether they be Catholic or Protestant. But if we live by the flesh we shall die.

Do people teaching a false gospel have the Spirit of Christ within them? One Corinthians would seem to disagree, as that is the point of the first 6 chapters!

The Gospel is not just a person, since that says nothing ABOUT the person.

If I never heard about Jesus, would that be the means of evangelizing?

“The Gospel (good news) is Jesus”…

“And what???”

In addition, the Gospel does not guarantee we will REMAIN in Christ until the end. Sure, we are saved from sin, but the Bible clearly shows men can return to their former ways, making them WORSE then before! Anyone living by the flesh (Paul includes dissenters here) will die to the Lord.

Now, Catholicism has clarified its notion of “Church” at Vatican 2. Our ancient tradition has always stated that even heretics, by valid baptism, continue to be, in some mysterious way, part of the Church, as long as they do not formally revoke their membership. I would venture to say most of our separated brothers are “invincibly ignornant” of their membership in the Catholic Church - they are part of the ONLY Church in some mysterious way by their baptism - and the Spirit works within them (as Lumen Gentium points out). Certainly, they can be saved, even if they never do enter into the visible Catholic Church. However, they can never achieve fullness of the truth until the receive the fullness of the Gospel, since there is only ONE teaching that fully gives the truth of the Son of God, Jesus Christ (as much as God has chosen to reveal). The catechism discusses this in more detail.

Regards