Is it possible to see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non-Catholics?

[fisherman_carl]

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Are saying Protestants are saved by ignorance? I don’t wish to argue with you. I agree that there are differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrines. Are you forcing me to defend protestants? I am answering the question ‘Is it possible to see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non-Catholics?’. I believe that there is absolute truth found in scripture. These truths can be found by anyone including Protestants. Perhaps the fullness of truth is contained in the Catholic church but that does not mean there are not elements of grace and truth in some Protestant churches. Jesus is real and if we receive him into our hearts and believe on him then we can have a relationship with him. The Holy Spirit is also available to anyone. The gospel is about Jesus Christ and a relationship with him through following him and his teachings. Salvation is a main focus of the gospels. Without salvation there would be no point to any of this. I do not see why you would want to downplay the significance of salvation. In practice I see the Holy Spirit working in many non-Catholics.

It is true what Jesus said in Mat 7:21-23. But do you think he was referring to the Protestants? Are you saying if we see a Protestant casting out a demon that he is not doing God’s will because he is a Protestant? As to the scripture about ‘not anyone who says Lord, Lord…’ Do you think that Jesus was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point)? Because he says that ‘…have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you…’. Yet Jesus also says when they accuse him of driving out demons by a demon, ’ Every kingdom divided against itself will be laid waste and house will fall against house.
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And if Satan is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? For you say that it is by Beelzebul that I drive out demons.
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If I, then, drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your own people 6 drive them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
20
But if it is by the finger of God that (I) drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
21
When a strong man fully armed guards his palace, his possessions are safe.
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But when one stronger 7 than he attacks and overcomes him, he takes away the armor on which he relied and distributes the spoils.
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Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

So if Jesus says on the one hand not everyone who drives out demons is doing God’s will yet he says on the other hand that someone can not drive out demons by demons then what are we to conclude about a Protestant who drives out demons?

 

[fdesales]

I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Are saying Protestants are saved by ignorance?

No. When a person knows that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Jesus Christ, he is bound by conscience to enter her. If that person is ignorant of that fact, then God will judge him based upon what he knows, just like all of us will be judged. Thus, the American Indians of 1200 AD are not condemned for their lack of entrance into the Church via baptism. Again, this is the teachings of the Church. Invincible ignorance means it is not their fault, so God judges these differently.

I don’t wish to argue with you. I agree that there are differences between Catholic and Protestant doctrines. Are you forcing me to defend protestants? I am answering the question ‘Is it possible to see the Holy Spirit working in the lives of non-Catholics?’.

I have answered “yes”, as the Church has said. I am merely noting that whittling down our faith to a common denominator is false ecumenicism. It is not an act of love to deny parts of the truth. Noting that some do not have all of the truth is NOT stating that they will not be saved!!! I think that is your assumption on my point of view. I am a firm believer of the Church’s proclamation at Vatican 2 on these matters.

I believe that there is absolute truth found in scripture. These truths can be found by anyone including Protestants. Perhaps the fullness of truth is contained in the Catholic church but that does not mean there are not elements of grace and truth in some Protestant churches.

Again, I agree - you are arguing against a phantom. I stated already in previous posts my stance and noting my agreement with Lumen Gentium and that this was in line with the Church since the beginning. Have you read LG? Are you aware that the Church in these documents state that the fullness of the truth does not guarantee instant salvation to all Catholics, nor does it states that LACK of that truth means damnation… LG specifically states that the Spirit DOES work in our separated brothers, via sacrament and the Word of God… It even notes that God can work in those who are not Christian!

Stating that one does not have the fullness of truth is NOT an indication that this person is going to hell or cannot be saved!

Jesus is real and if we receive him into our hearts and believe on him then we can have a relationship with him. The Holy Spirit is also available to anyone. The gospel is about Jesus Christ and a relationship with him through following him and his teachings. Salvation is a main focus of the gospels. Without salvation there would be no point to any of this. I do not see why you would want to downplay the significance of salvation. In practice I see the Holy Spirit working in many non-Catholics.

We experience God in many ways, but these experiences are more secure and available to those in the Catholic Church. We experience the Spirit in the Scriptures. Anyone can experience God there. We can experience God working in people in our lives. But we also can experience God in the Liturgy, in the lives of the saints, in Apostolic Tradition. Most of our separated brothers don’t have access to those experiences. Thus, they do not have the FULLNESS of what God has made available to mankind.

It is true what Jesus said in Mat 7:21-23. But do you think he was referring to the Protestants? Are you saying if we see a Protestant casting out a demon that he is not doing God’s will because he is a Protestant?

No, I am saying that people should not PRESUME that because they say “Lord, Lord”, that they are “friends of God”. This applies to everyone, Catholics and Protestants. Note, though, it also speaks about obeying the will of the Father. He desires us to come to the knowledge of the truth. Thus, if the Catholic Church is the fullness of the truth, it follows that God desires people to become Catholic and experience this truth and a relationship with Him via Liturgy and other specifically Catholic means. By REFUSING to become Catholic WHILE knowing what the Church is - that is disobedience to the will of God, and those who say “Lord Lord” but refuse, are in danger…

As to the scripture about ‘not anyone who says Lord, Lord…’ Do you think that Jesus was using hyperbole (exaggeration to make a point)?..

He is stressing obedience and beware of being overconfident. We know of some separate brothers who are overconfident in their position with God when they do not exhibit holy attitudes towards fellow Christians. Again, this can be said about Catholics who go to Mass and treat people like garbage all the time. I am not making a “Protestant only” statement.

In addition, the hyperbole part, in my opinion, comes from the “I never knew you” part. People can exhibit works of God, great works, even to drive out demons. However, this does not guarantee their position with God - if they later choose to be disobedient to the Father…

Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Ez 18:25-26.

A person who says “Lord, Lord” today does not guarantee heaven. And just because someone SAYS fine words doesn’t make them good Christians. That was my point. Catholic or Protestant. I apologize if I didn’t make that very clear in my first posts. I do indeed believe that God’s Spirit works in men, even non-Christian. I do not believe that this gives them an “out” to not have to join the Church, however.

Regards

 

[aingil]

Here is a great talk by Peter Kreeft (in transcript form) about this very topic. Specifically he talks about why he thinks that God does not immediately lead honest protestants into the church.

peterkreeft.com/audio/03_ecumenism/ecumenism_transcription.htm#4

 

[Melissa66]

This question has been around since before Jesus went to the cross. In Mark 9 John brings the question to Jesus himself.

37 John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. 38 But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me. 39 For he that is not against you, is for you. 40 For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
(Douay-Rheims Bible)

I know for a fact that the Holy Spirit worked through me when I was still Lutheran. One time I had to prepare an opening devotion for a weekend retreat. I prayed and prayed because I felt a great burden to be God’s instrument of ministry to these women. In fact, I was very afraid as I knew that God holds His teachers responsible for what they teach and this was the first time I had done anything on such a large scale. I gave the devotion and afterward the main speaker came to me and was very excited. She told me I had briefly touched on every topic she planned to cover in the conference. It just goes to show that God truly can use anyone, even me.

I remember other instances of great awareness of God’s presence, protection, and guidance but this was the most obvious. Looking back I can see how God has held me under his wing and guided me over the years. It certainly helps me to trust him in these troubled days.

 

[poetryforjesus]

Many of my protestant friends and even some muslim friends are better persons than I am, I have observed. That is very humbling to me. I know that God led me to the true church because He has pity on me. I simply need more in order to be saved.

That said, though, I can’t help but imagine how happy my protestant friends will be and how enlightened they will be if they also come to know the true faith. They definitely have something lacking in their spirituality, even though they could be great great people.

 

[Monica4316]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

Hi, here’s the answer I came to… btw I’m a convert from Protestantism to Catholicism.

Our Lord is very merciful… He gives people graces if they seek Him. Yes there are many Protestants who love Him… but this is not because of their Protestantism. It’s despite their Protestantism, and because of His mercy. He doesn’t want to punish someone just because they were born in a non Catholic family, but are seeking Him sincerely. Along the road, He might lead them to the Catholic Church, as He lead me

the Eucharist does make it much easier though!! I’ve experienced this myself.

God bless

 

[poetryforjesus]

Paul’s Gospel is first Christological before it is soteriological.

This statement you made is very interesting to me. I have felt very strongly lately that the difference between protestantism and Catholicism is that the former is more centered on the believer while the latter is more centered on God.

Contrast:

Protestant: How can I be saved and be guarunteed of my salvation?
Catholic: How can I know God more, love Him more, and serve Him more?

Is this the kind of difference you mean by the terminologies here: Christological and soteriological?

 

[fisherman_carl]

No. ** When a person knows that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Jesus Christ, he is bound by conscience to enter her.** If that person is ignorant of that fact, then God will judge him based upon what he knows, just like all of us will be judged. Thus, the American Indians of 1200 AD are not condemned for their lack of entrance into the Church via baptism. Again, this is the teachings of the Church. Invincible ignorance means it is not their fault, so God judges these differently.

Does this idea (see bold above) come from when the Catholic church was the only church? Obviously, if one recognized the Catholic church in those days but did not obey they would be disobedient to the gospel since there was no one else offering the gospel.

 

[fdesales]

This statement you made is very interesting to me. I have felt very strongly lately that the difference between protestantism and Catholicism is that the former is more centered on the believer while the latter is more centered on God.

Contrast:

Protestant: How can I be saved and be guarunteed of my salvation?
Catholic: How can I know God more, love Him more, and serve Him more?

Is this the kind of difference you mean by the terminologies here: Christological and soteriological?

You are correct, in a general way…

We Catholics consider the Trinity as the central teaching of our faith. Why? Because it explains God’s “motives”, the reason for His action in the world today.

Soteriology is secondary, as it does not discuss several key issues. WHY does God save us - it does not take into consideration that God desires to MAKE us holy, while most Protestant denominations approach theology as about saving man from sin, but ends there.

The Incarnation, the Trinity, our being made holy, these take on more significance in our theology because they express our being BROUGHT into God, who IS love. We are being drawn into love, and soteriology is only a small piece of the puzzle on the question of “why does God do this”?

Consider why the Catechism calls the Trinity as the central doctrine of our faith - from it ALL others flow. They EXPLAIN WHY the rest of our faith…

Regards

 

[fdesales]

Does this idea (see bold above) come from when the Catholic church was the only church? Obviously, if one recognized the Catholic church in those days but did not obey they would be disobedient to the gospel since there was no one else offering the gospel.

This would make sense, since the statements were made in context of Christiandom, when “all” of the known world was Christian. It appears that there are some writers who are more nuanced - recognizing that there are good pagans, who are “Christian”, like Justin the Martyr calling Socrates a Christian because of the presence of the Logos (which brings to mind one of my favorite verse in Scriptures - he that has Christ has life…1 John 5:12) within Socrates, proven by Socrates “noble” life.

“Everyone” was aware of the Catholic Church, so the general concept was everyone had to enter the Catholic Church physically. However, more nuanced minds (such as Pope Stephen, who lived during the time of Cyprian’s statement that you quoted) recognized that everyone who was baptized into the Trinity and water was indeed already Catholic!

It took the Church until Vatican 2 to express that more universally and definitively…

Those “IN CHRIST” (1 John 5:12) have life. They must be “Catholic” by association, since Christ is the Head of the Body - which we see in visible form in Catholicism. Thus, Vatican 2 is the result of the Church identifying “who is part of us, the Church”???

As such, we in the RCIA do not “re-baptize” Christians. This is a recognition that they are ALREADY of the Catholic Church, but desire FULLNESS.

Regards

 

[Magdalena09]

To the original poster…

Absolutely!!!

I know many protestants who love God and are constantly seeking to know Him more, serve Him better, etc. God responds to those who seek Him. (Deuteronomy 4:29) Now, you asked how they can be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist and other Sacraments. I will try to explain as best as I understand it myself…

We have 5 senses. With those senses, we can see, taste, touch, hear, and smell. If we take one of those senses away, we lose something. We can still experience life, but not in the same way as if we had ALL our senses. The Sacraments are similar, except in the reverse. We are not born with all the graces of the Sacraments. We can experience God without the Sacraments, but not to the fullest extent. He pours out so much grace on us through the Sacraments, and the more we utilize the gifts of the Sacraments, the more we open ourselves up to the graces He wants us to receive.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

Yes; in fact you will likely see it more because they read and understand the Bible in greater detail because of the Holy Spirit working in and through as He teaches and guides each individual.

Jesus said if you want to be sanctified, the you will do that through His word.
John 17:17. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is the true interpreter of Scripture and only Christians can understand the Word of God in its fullness, non-Christians cannot according to the Word of God.

John 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Some will try to teach that it was meant for the Apostles only; however it is the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth, that dwells in each Christian; if the holy Spirit of truth is not in a person, then that person is not a Christian. Also, in the same John 14, where Jesus is answering questions is where we have the following " “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”; so is this just for the Apostles?

Eph 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, - Same Holy Spirit

1 john 5:6 (speaking of all Christians)
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. I***t is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. ***

As far a not having some fullness, the non-Catholic Christian rejects the literal eating of Jesus because of several reasons, but one is Jesus said it is finished and the book of Hebrews, particularly chapters 7,8 & 9 tells that the previous sacrifices had to be repeated often and by many priests, but Jesus needed once, then sat down at the right hand of God where He Himself said He will remain to make intersession for the saints and until His enemies are made a footstool; to be commanded by a “priest” to come down to be sacrificed again and again, seems to non-Catholics as Jesus contradicting Himself. Plus, Hebrews specifically states the old Levitical style priesthood of sacrifice was a shadow of copy of the once and for all sacrifice of Christ; therefore ended. This is why all Christians are referred to collectively as a “Royal priesthood” because Christians only offer up spiritual sacrifices to God under the New Covenant, which is a one-way covenant where Jesus sacrifice makes a Christian complete in Christ. The OT Covenants were agreements between two parties, God and Israel or God and Abraham, which God always held up His end and Israel always failed.

The main reason is Paul clarifies and identifies exactly what Jesus meant by the bread and the cup and this is affirmed by the Book of Acts, which tells us the church met regularly and broke bread.
1 Co. 12
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you{THIS IS KEY}, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes. —The Lord’s Supper was always pointing to the flesh and blood sacrifice of the Cross; just as Paul clarifies. The next versus after this give a severe warning.

Always keep in mind; you must drawl your own conclusions based on the resources you are given; for me it is the Bible. For the Catholic it is the Bible and their Traditions. Ultimately; it is always the work of the Holy Spirit that convicts a person. you will find Christians on both sides of the isle, so to speak.

 

[po18guy]

Always keep in mind; you must drawl your own conclusions based on the resources you are given; for me it is the Bible. For the Catholic it is the Bible and their Traditions.

For Catholics, it is the Magisterium (teaching authority from Christ), Sacred Tradition (the actual teachings of Christ - some of which are in the bible) and Sacred Scripture. It is a trinity of truth. They are inseparable from one another.

I pray that your Christmas was a blessed one.

 

[leonie]

Yes; in fact you will likely see it more because they read and understand the Bible in greater detail because of the Holy Spirit working in and through as He teaches and guides each individual.

Jesus said if you want to be sanctified, the you will do that through His word.
John 17:17. Furthermore, the Holy Spirit is the true interpreter of Scripture and only Christians can understand the Word of God in its fullness, non-Christians cannot according to the Word of God.

John 14:16-17 "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
Some will try to teach that it was meant for the Apostles only; however it is the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Truth, that dwells in each Christian; if the holy Spirit of truth is not in a person, then that person is not a Christian. Also, in the same John 14, where Jesus is answering questions is where we have the following " “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”; so is this just for the Apostles?

Eph 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, - Same Holy Spirit

1 john 5:6 (speaking of all Christians)
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. I***t is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. ***

As far a not having some fullness, the non-Catholic Christian rejects the literal eating of Jesus because of several reasons, but one is Jesus said it is finished and the book of Hebrews, particularly chapters 7,8 & 9 tells that the previous sacrifices had to be repeated often and by many priests, but Jesus needed once, then sat down at the right hand of God where He Himself said He will remain to make intersession for the saints and until His enemies are made a footstool; to be commanded by a “priest” to come down to be sacrificed again and again, seems to non-Catholics as Jesus contradicting Himself. Plus, Hebrews specifically states the old Levitical style priesthood of sacrifice was a shadow of copy of the once and for all sacrifice of Christ; therefore ended. This is why all Christians are referred to collectively as a “Royal priesthood” because Christians only offer up spiritual sacrifices to God under the New Covenant, which is a one-way covenant where Jesus sacrifice makes a Christian complete in Christ. The OT Covenants were agreements between two parties, God and Israel or God and Abraham, which God always held up His end and Israel always failed.

.

ah, Timothy, I would reject Catholicism too, if your understanding was true Catholicism. You have some serious misunderstandings of our teachings. Please, take the time and study a little more to see what the Church really teaches.

Jesus doesn’t die over and over. No Catholic believes this. The Church teaches that the priest on the altar reaches through time (as there is no time in heaven) and presents the one and only sacrifice to God. Jesus is all ready doing this in Heaven: presenting his sacrifice to God. So, the Church is only unifying herself to Him in this action.

The Holy Spirit works with all Christians by virtue of their Baptism, but no individual can be sure of his interpretation apart from the Church because we are easily deceived. But, the Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. We must trust in Jesus’s promise to protect the Church: the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.

If you don’t trust the Catholic Church, how can you trust the Bible? God gave us the Bible through the Church.

My experience is that devout Protestants are lovely people, but their spirituality is shallow. When I read of great Protestant missionaries like Corrie Ten Boom, I think how much more they would have done had they been Catholic with access to all the Graces of the God through the Church.

Protestants that aren’t baptised, though, merely rely on natural virtues and actual graces. And, even the pagans have access to those. There are very nice pagans, too.

Praying for truth and clarity for all Christians,

Leonie

 

[Timothy_Piper]

ah, Timothy, I would reject Catholicism too, if your understanding was true Catholicism. You have some serious misunderstandings of our teachings. Please, take the time and study a little more to see what the Church really teaches.

Jesus doesn’t die over and over. No Catholic believes this. The Church teaches that the priest on the altar reaches through time (as there is no time in heaven) and presents the one and only sacrifice to God. Jesus is all ready doing this in Heaven: presenting his sacrifice to God. So, the Church is only unifying herself to Him in this action.

The Holy Spirit works with all Christians by virtue of their Baptism, but no individual can be sure of his interpretation apart from the Church because we are easily deceived. But, the Bible tells us not to lean on our own understanding. We must trust in Jesus’s promise to protect the Church: the Gates of Hell shall not prevail.

If you don’t trust the Catholic Church, how can you trust the Bible? God gave us the Bible through the Church.

My experience is that devout Protestants are lovely people, but their spirituality is shallow. When I read of great Protestant missionaries like Corrie Ten Boom, I think how much more they would have done had they been Catholic with access to all the Graces of the God through the Church.

Protestants that aren’t baptised, though, merely rely on natural virtues and actual graces. And, even the pagans have access to those. There are very nice pagans, too.

Praying for truth and clarity for all Christians,

Leonie

Trust me when I say I know exactly what is meant; perhaps I could have communicated more clearly, but it does not change the truth. It is a reproduction (bloodless) of the original, the true one only needed and final sacrifice on the cross. It does not remotely resemble work of Christ on the cross nor does it capture the significance of the cross from the human nor the divine perspective in my personal and experiential opinion.

My question to you would be if God Sacrificed God in Jesus and said it was finished, then why would a priest receive authority to “reach through time” and and represent the sacrifice to God, when He already did it Himself? The priest , by the way , does not reach through time, he commands Christ down. Perhaps you should read a little more.

you said "The Holy Spirit works with all Christians by virtue of their Baptism"
What baptism? Water or Spirit? What is you proof?

you said: “no individual can be sure of his interpretation apart from the Church”. i have already PROVEN from Scripture that the Holy Spirit is the interpreter of His Truth, which is why one of His names is the Spirit of Truth and why Jesus said He must leave so He could send the “Helper” , which will teach and guide you into all truth (concerning the things of God). The “Church” you refer to is a group of men, which Scripture says it is not interpreted by men; so how do you reconcile any of that to Scripture and what is your proof that refutes the proof from god’s Word I have presented and I only presented a small portion of all that can be shown from Scripture.

**You said God gave us the Bible through the Church. ** So it is a book written by men? Should we then discard it? What about the 2/3 that existed before the day of Pentecost? Were the Jews Catholic in disguise? Do you see the nonsense in your reasoning?

you said My experience is that devout Protestants are lovely people, but their spirituality is shallow. How do you define spirituality as it pertains to the things of god, that allows you to paint such a broad stroke? Please explain. If you do not; i will continue to call you out on this one.

 

[Magdalena09]

I would just like to point out that some of the posts are off-topic and it may be better if that conversation was continued in a different thread, since it rightly deserves a thread of its own anyway…

To the original poster…

Absolutely!!!

I know many protestants who love God and are constantly seeking to know Him more, serve Him better, etc. God responds to those who seek Him. (Deuteronomy 4:29) Now, you asked how they can be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist and other Sacraments. I will try to explain as best as I understand it myself…

We have 5 senses. With those senses, we can see, taste, touch, hear, and smell. If we take one of those senses away, we lose something. We can still experience life, but not in the same way as if we had ALL our senses. The Sacraments are similar, except in the reverse. We are not born with all the graces of the Sacraments. We can experience God without the Sacraments, but not to the fullest extent. He pours out so much grace on us through the Sacraments, and the more we utilize the gifts of the Sacraments, the more we open ourselves up to the graces He wants us to receive.

 

[PJM]

I know there’s a thread going on right now about denominations, but here’s my confusion: I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and I truly believe the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Jesus. I’ve been attending the Catholic Church since Easter now, but recently, I was hanging out with some Protestants at a Christian event and I found myself confused. I know that they don’t have the fullness of the Truth, but some of these people I met were so in love with Jesus. They exuded love. They were so sweet and happy and prayerful. They were absolutely magnetic (I should hasten to add that I’ve met a lot of Catholics in the past year that would also fit that description). So I guess my question is, how can they be like that without the benefit of the Eucharist, etc, etc?

BTW, I’m not trying to stir up controversy or anything - - I’m just finding myself a bit confused in the conversion process.

***GREAT POST:thumbsup:

And you are correct. Look at people like Dr. Dobson or the Grahams.
**
Matt.11: 25*** At that time Jesus declared, “I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes”

The Catholic Church never claims to have monopoly on Loving Jesus Indeed it is perhaps much easier for a non-Catholic than for an Informed and practicing Catholic,who MUST by virtue of having to accept the ENTIRE BIBLE as being God’s inspiried word to love Christ, an then be required by Christ to live it and share it?

Many non catholics claim the same beleive in the entire Bible, and then admit to believing OSAS, “Everything is in the Bible”, Salvation by “Faith ALONE”, not accepting Marian Truths, and the like. So in effect NOT accepting even everything in there shortened and altered KJB, much less the actual entire Word of God as He wants us to have.

Non-catholic Christinity is far less demanding on FAITH, on Hope, and yes even on LOVE for non-catholics. God in His mysterious way, permits this, an does offer suffieicent grace to everyone to be able to accept salvation, BUT NOT sufficient grace to embrace the TRUTH in it’s beautiful entirety. And thus as you noted they lack the intimate Love of Christ Real Presence in Holy Comunion, Known Forgiveness of sins,as well as the other Sacraments.

In a sense NOT KNOWING permits them to be in relationship with God on THERE own TERMS, while NOT being in relationship with God, on GOD’s Terms.

Good, BUT not exactly and completly as God truly desires. ;**

Those from whom more is expected, are given oh so much more in love and grace

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[po18guy]

…which will teach and guide you into all truth (concerning the things of God).

First: the bible was not written in chapters and verses. Each Gospel was a complete, seamless story. If you would slow down a bit, you would see that Jesus spoke only to the Apostles when He promised them the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. Start at John 14 and read forward from there. Jesus was speaking only to the twelve - not to individual Christians. Much of what Jesus taught was strictly to the twelve. John 14:16 and 16:13 were spoken only to the twelve. It appears that you have grabbed that Apostolic authority for yourself, have you not?

And, Paul did teach, inerrantly, that the Church is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Timothy 3:!5). Jesus taught that the Church is the final authority in disputes. “If he will not listen even to the Church, treat him as a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:17).

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by fdesales

No. When a person knows that the Catholic Church is the true Church established by Jesus Christ, he is bound by conscience to enter her. If that person is ignorant of that fact, then God will judge him based upon what he knows, just like all of us will be judged. Thus, the American Indians of 1200 AD are not condemned for their lack of entrance into the Church via baptism. Again, this is the teachings of the Church. Invincible ignorance means it is not their fault, so God judges these differently.

My comment to “fdesales”

Your conclusion is correct, but your statement:“then God will judge him based on what he knows” requires futher clairifaction.

**God will judge humanity NOT simply on what we actually know, BUT ALSO on what we have had the opportunity to know. As such opportunities are too from God, and not accepting them, is effectively denying God.: There are sins of commission and ommission. Both can condem us.**thumbsup:

The reply
Does this idea come from when the Catholic church was the only church? Obviously, if one recognized the Catholic church in those days but did not obey they would be disobedient to the gospel since there was no one else offering the gospel.

***My comment to the reply.

It certainly stems from that period, but remains as vaid today as it was 2000 years ago.

The reasons for this include the following.*

Christ desires only one Church and FOUNDED only one Church…

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body [One Church] and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call,one Lord, [One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma] one Baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

Christinaity began with a single Bible [completely written by the end of the First Century] when as you noted there was just the Catholic Church, so the ONLY TRUE Bible remains the Catholic,73 Book bile withour revisions and changes. If your seeking TRUTH, that friend is where to began your search.

Jesus gave Himselg as surety for the truth on all matters of Fith and or Morals, and again, ONE MUST seek truth where [an only where] it actually can be found.

John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” [again the CC is what Jesus consecrates Himself in TRUTH for…]

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

So the Bible tells us us that if one id seeking the SINGUALR truth of God, on all matters of Faith and or Moral issues… They can ONLY be found in the CC and places in line with Catholic Church teaching. Amen
**

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Timothy_Piper]

GREAT POST:thumbsup:
**
Matt.11: 25** At that time Jesus declared, “I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes”

The Catholic Church never claims to have monopoly on Loving Jesus Indeed it is perhaps much easier for a non-Catholic than for an Informed and practicing Catholic,who MUST by virtue of having to accept the ENTIRE BIBLE as being God’s inspiried word to love Christ, an then be required by Christ to live it and share it? Between the two conditions above in Red, that would equate to very few, which you will find out if you become one. Do Catholics except the parts of their bible that are known to have error as inspired by God and yet believe the Bible is inspired by God, thus making Him the God of error?

Many non catholics claim the same beleive in the entire Bible, and then admit to believing OSAS, “Everything is in the Bible”, Salvation by “Faith ALONE”, not accepting Marian Truths, and the like. So in effect NOT accepting even everything in there shortened and altered KJB, much less the actual entire Word of God as He wants us to have.