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sophion
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Is it possible to sin after you get to heaven? 
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pablope
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No…there is no sin in heaven or in the presence of God.Is it possible to sin after you get to heaven?
Rev 21…27 There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
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Ophelia23
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sophion
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so like there is no free will anymore?
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JerryZ
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Sin is the product of our material fallen nature.Is it possible to sin after you get to heaven?
IF we are in heaven we don’t have the temptation acting any more on us and by being with God who is love we are prevented from ever sinning again.
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sophion
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do angels have material fallen natures too? as i understand many of them rebelled! right?
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pablope
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After you get to heaven…I do not think so…our wills will be attuned to God’s will.
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MarcoPolo
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The will is perfected to always love. It remains “free”. That’s how I understand it.
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pablope
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Angels are different beings than us…as I understand it…they were given a choice…and one time chance to choose…and once they chose, they were forever sealed in their choice with no chance of changing it.do angels have material fallen natures too? as i understand many of them rebelled! right?
rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/10/13/what-is-a-demon
Demons were not created evil. (In fact, it is impossible for God, who is Goodness itself, to create anything evil.) Remember: demons are just “bad angels.” After God created the angels, He tested their fidelity to Him before admitting them to the Beatific Vision, the sight of His very essence. For purely spiritual beings, this “seeing” of God’s essence would be a purely intellectual vision. Some angels obeyed the divine test; others did not. Those who disobeyed were irreversibly transformed into demons and cast out of heaven.
Read more: rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2012/10/13/what-is-a-demon#ixzz2BMfKOBRX
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sophion
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in short choice had been disabled. perfect indeed.
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sophion
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so angels have a choice, but the saved do not. rebellion is made impossible.
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R_C
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You don’t have a clue of what you are talking aboutin short choice had been disabled. perfect indeed.
So angels have a choice, but the saved do not.
The theology of the Sacred Tradition on pure spirits is that they were not yet in the state of heaven (that is, at the presence of God) and that, being free, like us, they were tried, like we are, and that those who rebelled out of sheer pride were separated from God, while those who loved God above themselves were admitted to the beatific vision (the state of heaven). Once you see God face to face, there is no way you can possibly choose to offend him: you will freely chose to do His will. This we cannot understand on this earth, because we only see God through the bridal veil of faith.
With regards to the human, a physical and spiritual being, after death the spiritual part (the soul), if in love with God, will run to the beatifying vision (sometimes it’ll have to undergo some sorrowful purification when she sees the stains of the sins she committed and the absolute pristine purity of God) and at that point out of sheer free will she will only want to do one thing, which is the one thing we are asked to do on earth: love God with all your soul, and your neighbor like yourself.
In the state of heaven, pure spirits and human souls have the same status, so to speak. But their choice, the definite choice, was made already.
And to be evil does not make one more free, it’s just an abuse of freedom. Just as if I walk to you and scream curses at your face really loud and tell you I’m exercising my freedom of speech, that’s just an abuse of my freedom. Freedom is freedom to promote what is good, not what harms goodness. To rebel against injustice is no rebellion. To rebel against justice is insanity.
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Iron_Donkey
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More that the choice has already been made and is now being acted on.in short choice had been disabled. perfect indeed.
To avoid the robotness is why we don’t start with the beatific vision. God gives us the option to accept or reject him, we freely choose, then we are united with or separated from Him.ok so by our “limited understanding” we can call that as robotic.
afterall how is something free if its impossible for it to go its own way.
alright then.
just asking.
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R_C
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People are free to hurt each other, right? Because last time I checked, our hands are not tied to the floor by chains.
Oh, right, that’s not good. That’s why we came up with “laws” and “fines” and a legal system to punish people who do these things.
Since I chose to not do this though I have the possibility to do so, I am not really free, after all, or am I?
On the other hand, by that reasoning, criminals and evildoers are the only ones truly free?
Do you realize how dangerous your trail of thoughts is?
If I obey the rules, if I am a disciplined person in my life, I am a robot, aren’t I?
I think you don’t quite understand what “free” means, and by all means it’s not your fault…there has been such a great abuse of concepts such as truth, freedom, and love, that most of the world ignores what they truly are, simply because the original meaning is almost entirely lost.
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Glomung
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Once we arein Heaven our wills are healed of sin. You will still have complete free will but would have no desire to do anything that would offend God, because now that your will conforms to His, commtting sin would offend you also.
here’s an anology
You are completely free to eat whatever is available,
pizza is on the table, yes thankyou,
rotten roadkill on the hiway, no thanks!
just so, in Heaven the good will be appealing to you while eveil will be disgusting to you
here’s an anology
You are completely free to eat whatever is available,
pizza is on the table, yes thankyou,
rotten roadkill on the hiway, no thanks!
just so, in Heaven the good will be appealing to you while eveil will be disgusting to you
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sophion
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so it is still possible to sin. however it is unlikely.
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R_C
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You speak of the possibility to sin as if it was something good, and honestly that is a scary thing http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2066&pictureid=13948
The best way to understand this is to consider Christ, who was true God and true Man.
As true man, one could argue that to some extent nothing stopped Him, from the exterior viewpoint, from doing what other men did. And He did, in all that was good. He laughed, he cried, he rejoiced, he felt sorrow, he became upset, he experienced fear and terror, he slept, he ate. And by never sinning, he was in no way less than a man. To sin, to disobey, to prefer and chose what is wrong over what is right, is by no means a necessity or something that makes us human. It is simply foolishness and an abuse of our freedom. We try to educate our children so that when they grow up this foolishness is replaced by wisdom. But we are imperfect creatures, with the limitations of space and time…there’s only so much we can learn, and only so much we are willing to do.
The point therefore is this: Christ, by His free submission of His human will to the divine will. was absolutely free from the possibility of sinning. There is no way he could have possibly chosen to offend God, without this making Him less free or less of a man, because His choice was to do God’s will. The main difference is that He, unlike us, was also God, He could do this perfectly, while we cannot do it perfectly, though we are called to try. We will be able to, however, in heaven, because we are freed from the limitations and imperfections of this life.
Point being: nobody is forced to be in heaven. It’s their choice. And one does not need to look that far: lots struggle daily in this life to stay away from sin, and some even achieve the possibility of staying for a reasonably long amount of time without sinning. This is a reflection of the world to come
I know this must sound strange when we don’t have faith or when we don’t believe in these teachings (I’ve been there) but it makes perfect sense.
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Iron_Donkey
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It’s a little more involved than “our ability to make choices contrary to God’s will is surgically removed.” I’ll try my best to explain it, but hopefully someone who is more familiar with this sort of thing than I am will chime in.
If a person makes it to heaven, it is because they love God above all things. While on Earth our will and intellect are damaged (by original sin and lack of perfect knowledge of what things will entail). So the person on earth who is just short of heaven really, really wants to never offend God above all else (perhaps not perfectly, but there should be at least the beginnings of this sentiment), but will tend to mess up occasionally and instead actually act on his selfish desires rather than this overarching preference to do what is right.
But once in heaven, he is completely repaired. His overarching preference is still never to offend God - and after seeing God, this desire is strengthened to the point that it will never wobble like it may for those of us on earth. Likewise, now his knowledge and will are perfected to the point that he knows exactly what this means and is capable of doing it. Therefore while his will is still is own and (a priori, before considering his state of being etc.) he could still sin, because of the transformation and perfection he undergoes while entering into heaven he absolutely freely decides never to sin and, again absolutely freely, never changes his mind and decides to sin.
So it’s that we choose to become such people who freely choose never to sin and can live up to that choice, not that we lose the ability to make the choice to sin.
(To be clear I am not proposing Pelagianism and saying that we can make our choice to enter heaven without Divine Aid, but simply trying to use simplified language in an attempt to make the description of this issue more concise and readable.)
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