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grandfather
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This is a topic for another thread. There is a lot of theology involved.
Is it proper to go up for a blessing when not receiving Communion?
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grandfather
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I have seen on many occasions so many laity swarming all over the altar taking chalices to the faithful that the priest sat down and did not distribute Communion. It was like they pushed him out of the way. It has become the task of the laity. I have seen in small parishes five or six EMHCs where the priest alone could have given Communion in a few minutes. What is the criteria, where is the line drawn when the priest needs assistance. It seems that it is time dependent. If it takes five or ten minutes to distribute Communion is that too long? Is that too much of a burden on the priest? Will it keep the laity too long in Mass and away from the golf course? We have about one hundred or maybe a few more at my parish. It takes about five seconds for the priest to give Communion to someone. I have been to daily Masses where there are twelve people or less. There are three or four EMHCs. Good grief! Go sit down. They think it is their duty or place to be up on the altar. It makes them feel important. Take a break. Go say your prayers. To make matters worse there is a crowd of musicians and singers in the folk group on the altar strumming away entertaining us, performing. They get applauded. Is it worship or vaudevllle?I found this kinda funny:
“If the entire pool of available ordained ministers at a parish, chaplaincy, monastery, or other location of Mass is insufficient for distributing communion to “particularly large numbers of the faithful,” then and only then is it possible that extraordinary ministers may have a legitimate role to play.”
As if there is always a “pool” of clergy sitting around every Saturday and Sunday with nothing else to do.
Perhaps this was written before the shortage of priests and deacons became apparent, but if a parish has a “pool” of one or two like ours, the whole statement seems…well…let’s say wishful thinking.
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vocatio
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I put the term “bishop” there because although I am NOT a real bishop, in using a metaphor - like calling Father a father…he is not really a father. He is a spiritual father. You see, ALL men are called to be spiritual fathers. In fact the title “Father” is a recent term or titel use. I asked this question of Fr. Vincent Serpa on CA Radio. I was trying to figure out why we, Latin Rite Catholics, dont do like the Eastern Churches and refer to deacons as “father”. The term I used on my profile has a much deeper meaning that just bishop. It may be dumb to you, but I’ve always had a bazaar since of humor. You’d have to know where I came from [ecclesial community wise] to understand. Also, I heard a man that has a show on EWTN called the “Domestic Church” tell Fr. Mitch Pacwa that married men with children are bishop of the domestic church. I had never heard this before. I also have never heard a priest argue against it.
Before coming back home to the Catholic Church I seriouisly considered becoming a full-time minister [preacher] in a non-denomicational church where this blessing would never occur anyhow. A scholarship from ACU would have been available to me, but my wife was not comfortable with be becoming a preacher. So like a true Catholic that secretly believed she was my first vocation I let it go. This was really an indication that I recognized that I left my vocation to become a priest. It’s a confusing situation, but the Lord opened doors for me that ultimately has be believing he allowed me to wonder off …maybe…hopefully…for my wife’s sake. She was miserable in the church she grew up in but like a good submissive woman, daughter and wife she bottled it up.
My father-in-law was a bishop [elder] for over 30 years before he died in 2004. Prior to that he was a deacon. My 2 oldest brother-in-laws are full-time ministers [preachers]. One of them is a “bishop”. the rest of the men are deacons and some nephews are preachers. I use the naming as a teaching tool to open discussion. That’s all. I forgot I had it there. I will probably remove it because I may cause scandal in the Church because people would believe I am a married man of but one wife with believing children. And aren’t bishops required to be celebate?
This forum is not the place for an indepth discussion of the stuff that happened to me in my life that caused me to fall on my face many years ago. But for what it’s worth, my mother and her very large family were also non-denomination Christians that accepted infant baptisms as opposed to my wife’s family. God is showing me mercy as I hand out on CAF and learn…and share and test what I have learned. Sometimes I think I understand something and then attempt to describe it clearly to find that my words are not quite right. So that is why I am here. I plan to enroll in a 3 year initial theology coures with my wife next summer. After that, if the Lord is willing, I hope to be accepted in the next diaconate formation.
I wish the bishops would reserve the EMHC slots for permanent and transitional deacons, which would seem more prudent and thus give a greater presence of married clergy in the Church as a good example for other men. However, I’m NOT a liturgical expert. I do believe that the minor orders should be brought back in plain view and reserved for qualified men.
Frankly, if it were my decision I’d rather go to the Eastern Church [Catholic] where they still hold to ancient traditions that seem to be more orhtodox [don’t rant on me. This is my perception on it]. Consecration may or may not be in the presence of the laity. I really love the traditions. The TLM would be cool, but getting my wife to go would be a miracle. I often wonder if the ordinary mass was a failed attempt to bridge the gap between Protestants and the Church. In some cases it could be argued that it is working. I simply don’t have enough information and my opinion is just that…an opinion. I reserve the right to say dumb things. I’m just a lowly sinner in need of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ’s life, death burinal and resurection. Lord Jesus Christ son of the ever living Heavenly Father foregive me a poor wretched sinner. Amen.
I feel called so I’ve accepted becoming an EMCH. However, I don’t think it is being performed to the intent or the “Spirit of Vatican Council II” like many say from that time period. It’ just my honest but probably erronious opinion.
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Newbie2
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That, apparently, is the million dollar question.
Maybe even less time.
That bugs me a little too; not necessarily the number of muscians, but in the liturgical context, the applause. Now I will say that when the grade-school kids sing a song, it’s less of an annoyance for me that they get a polite, brief clap.
Kids, methinks, benefit from a little encouragement rather than stark silence following their little songs. But, that is another topic.
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FrDavid96
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And likewise, you are not imparting a “real blessing” you are offering a prayer for someone, and the word “blessing” is just a metaphor. It’s the same thing. If you were a real bishop, you would be imparting a real blessing. Since you call yourself a metaphorical bishop, what you are offering is a metaphorical blessing.
Do you also perform ordinations as a “bishop?” Are these metaphorical ordinations as well?
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emeraldcoast
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Jesus gave us this Sacrament which is very clear in the Bible–why on earth would one believe that we are able to alter what He did in not offering both the host and the cup to the people?
God Bless!
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Aramis
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As I’ve said before, the best evidence is in the sacramentary. It provides only for dealing with communicants, not others, during communion.
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grandfather
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Ouch! That literary tool pokes out its sarcastic head.
It is imprudent that anyone would call himself a bishop who is not, even if he thinks in some obscure sense he is, or has an odd sense of humor. No one will get the joke. It causes confusion and diminishes credibility. The distinction between laity and ordained ministers is already blurred enough without compunding the problem. It would be a good idea to fix the profile.
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FrDavid96
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My comments go directly to the question posed in the original post.
One of the reasons why a person does not go up for a blessing at Communion is that often the person distributing Communion is a layperson and not an ordained minister, and therefore may not impart a blessing. When this happens, it causes confusion because people begin to think in terms of the laity being able to impart blessings. Declaring oneself able to impart blessings and declaring oneself to be a bishop are two symptoms of the same problem. In fact, they are the same problem manifesting itself in different degrees.
We already see people openly declaring themselves to be priests and bishops, and those “bishops” performing “ordinations.” It starts with the little things and builds from there.
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I_Believe
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Hi Ed, Fr David has given a straight up answer. It’s not an approved practice. That’s the bottom line.
Besides, there is something we call Spiritual Communion, which is appropriate for times when we can’t receive Holy Communion.
Also, don’t forget, at the end of Mass, we receive a blessing from the priest. No one leaves Mass without receiving a blessing unless they leave early.
J+M+J
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vocatio
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rather than detract from this thread any more than already I am starting a new thread to discuss parents blessing their children and hope to receive responses. Thanks.
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vocatio
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**Recommended Reading:
**Should blessings be given during Communion?
Should EMHCs bless communicants with the Eucharist?
Can anyone other than a priest give a blessing?
Can parents change lines during the Communion procession so their children can be blessed by the priest?
Parent thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=170395&highlight=parents+blessing+children
**Should blessings be given during Communion?
Should EMHCs bless communicants with the Eucharist?
Can anyone other than a priest give a blessing?
Can parents change lines during the Communion procession so their children can be blessed by the priest?
Parent thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=170395&highlight=parents+blessing+children
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grandfather
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grandfather
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During the Eucharistic prayers the priest takes the elements, bread and wine, signifying the body and blood of Jesus, that will become His body and blood and separates them.
The life is in the blood. The separation of blood from body signifies His death. The priest offering the sacrifice breaks the body and at one point puts a small piece of the host into the chalice, bringing the body and blood together again, signifying the Resurrection.
We offer a holy and living sacrifice. When we receive either element we receive the whole Jesus, living, body, blood, soul and divinity, who imparts life to our souls.
Everything is done during the Liturgy is done deliberately and with reason. That is why people can’t make it up as they go in any fashion they choose. When they do meaning is lost, even though they might be ignorant of it.
It is a good thing to question why or how things are done. That is how we learn. It is also kind of presumptuous in our questioning, or in the attitude of our questioning if we presume to know better than the Church about how things should be done.
That is why there are Protestants and so many Protestant denominations. Everyone assumes the right to know best and insists on exercising it, doing it their way, believing what seems right to them, breaking unity again and again.
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Newbie2
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That is a good question, and that’s maybe the crux of my question as well. If my Bishop(s) and Priests don’t see it as a problem, why should I? Am I to be a Pharisee and demand the letter of the law, or be a rebel and go with what’s OK with my Bishops and Priests? Not much middle ground, it seems.
Yet it still happens, and apparently is very common.
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vocatio
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My associate pastor instructed me personally last Sunday to bless the person with their arms crossed. All of our priests and EMCH are doing the same. If this is such a great abuse, then the Pope and the Bishops need to send the message down stream. Otherwise, obedience until the rubriks is followed. If a good Catholic EMCH stands down and gets replaced by more rebellious like I see across the nation in our parishes today then the current situation will get even much worse. So, if you don’t want to “receive a blessing”…just dont’ go up. And if you bring your child expect that the person might try it. May I suggest you trade the children not receiving back and forth. There are lots of things that shouldn’t occur, but they do. Someone chatting or saying “HI” to me during communion is much more irritating than the blessing ritual. I don’t like to be conversed with while receiving Holy Communion.
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FrDavid96
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My suggestion is this: follow the liturgical laws and norms of the Church precisely as the Holy See has approved them. If we do this, we can’t go wrong. It’s very simple.That is a good question, and that’s maybe the crux of my question as well. If my Bishop(s) and Priests don’t see it as a problem, why should I? Am I to be a Pharisee and demand the letter of the law, or be a rebel and go with what’s OK with my Bishops and Priests? Not much middle ground, it seems.
Yet it still happens, and apparently is very common.
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Newbie2
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I think you eluded to the notion that it should start with the bishops and priests. Intill that happens, nothingn will change.
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grandfather
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This is quite true. Also your associate has instructed you to ignore the norms established by Rome. You said Rome should give instructions. Rome has. They are being ignored. You are participating in the abuse by going along with it. You said that the chatter is more annoying than the blessing. They are both wrong. Which is more wrong or annoying is irrelevant.I think you eluded to the notion that it should start with the bishops and priests. Intill that happens, nothingn will change.
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benedictgal
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Vocatio, early on in this thread, I posted something from the Congregration for the Clergy regarding the Collaboration of the Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of the Priest. The document, which was signed by two popes, the late Pope John Paul II, and the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in his capacity as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith. This document definitively states that:
Your pastor and parochial vicar do not have the right to confer on anyone what the Holy See, itself, has not conferred. We are not allowed to use any gestures or actions which are proper to the celebrant. Even the deacons have this prohibition.
This comes directly from the Holy See. An EMHC would not be rebellious if he refused to obey his pastor, especially if the pastor or the associate is asking him to do something that is contrary to what the Church requires.
Regarding emeralcoast’s post, I would refer her to re-read my initial response. We consume the flesh and blood of the Living God. Someone who is alive has both flesh and blood. When someone dies, the two separate. Therefore, Christ is contained completly, Flesh, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Host.
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