Is it punishment or abuse?

[Megan036]

I am not completely against spanking. When I feel my children’s behavior warrants it I will swat their bottom 1-2 times, but not hard. My husband however hits them hard and not always on the bottom. He’ll hit them for reasons i don’t agree with also and he tends to do it way more often when he is angry. Tonight he he heated my 6 year old sons donut up too hot and my son hit my husband, which was of course wrong but I know it couldn’t have hurt. My husband hit my son hard on the back and neck. He had a very large red mark where he was hit and also he hit his head and has a “goose egg” and a bruise.

My husband said he didn’t mean to cause him to hit his head and I told him that means he did something wrong. He has left bruises in the past and left welts and red hand prints on my sons butt, legs, and back. Also while he has never done this he frequently tells me he thinks they should be spanked with a switch or a belt which I’m completely against.

I have told my husband i wont be able to stay with him if he doesn’t stop. That it hurts me when he hits them. I don’t know what to do. Almost every time he hits one of them we end up fighting, frequently in front of the kid which I know is bad. I’ll say things that shouldn’t be said in front of the kids or he will (I am more guilty of this though) And i feel bad for it later, but I can’t stop myself when i’m that upset about somethign that is happening to one of my sons.

 

[Blenderx]

Maybe sit down with a good priest or family counselor together?

 

[musicality]

Just as a disclaimer, I do not support spanking because I don’t think it accomplishes much.

That being said, if I did support spanking, it would still sound to me like your husband has crossed the line. There is no reason for him to hit a six year old in the manner that he did. He is a grown man, and unless something constitutes self defense (impossible in the case of such a young child), there is no reason for a father to be hitting his son in that manner.

You should absolutely speak with your husband about this if you feel safe doing so and if you do not feel that you can get through to him alone, please seek out the help of a third party as mentioned above - preferably a professional.

If this sort of thing escalates or if he hits you, please do not hesitate to contact law enforcement or an advocacy agency.

 

[defenderoftruth]

I’m a believer in spanking not with a hand but with a “spanker” (spatula, wooden spoon type)

Your husband has an anger problem, people that have anger problems should not be spanking children. It’s a very controlled disciplinary teaching tool not something a parent does out of anger or to “teach them a lesson/get even with them because they deserve it”. It should not leave bruises or welps/welts only a light pink mark/(or better yet no mark) that disappears after a half hour or less. It should be only used after a calm talking to and followed by kisses and hugs and another talk about how much the child means to you and how you want the child to grow to be a respectful adult.

He needs help. If he doesn’t get it or refuses to get it remove yourself and the boy from the equation until he does get help.

 

[willofgods]

I’m not completely against spanking either, but one does not call it “spanking” when the back and neck are struck. And a bump or “goose egg” on the head can be harmless, but it can also be accompanied by a concussion; please monitor your sons behavior for any abnormalities as they could be a sign of further complications…
Consider staying with a relative or friend if your husband cannot control his actions, knowing that he could potentially harm his child.

If your son’s teacher asked about the bruises and bumps, feeling you have to say anything but the truth is a tell-tale sign that this is abuse.

I’m praying that it isn’t as bad as I’m imagining, and that if it is, that both you and your husband will have the strength to make things right.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I’m not there, and based on your description, I can’t judge whether your husband as “crossed the line” or not. Some red marks fade away in a few minutes. Some stay for days. Hitting with an object, a “switch”, may be innappropriate depending on what the object is and how it is used, but it is not always innappropriate. Disciplining in a spirit of anger can lead to problems, but at the same time we discipline our kids when they are misbehaving which also happens to be a time that we are not pleased and prone to anger.

I will in charity offer one critique of *your *spanking method though. You say that you spank, but not hard. If you are not going to spank them so they can feel it, then I believe you are better off not spanking at all. The purpose of the spank is to instill discipline through pain compliance, it’s not supposed to feel good. If the spank is a symbolic act, that doesn’t bother the child at all because you aren’t striking hard enough for them to feel it, it actually makes matters worse by eroding your authority. The child misbehaved and was essentially unpunished and his parent looks feeble (not strong enough to hit hard) or clueless (thinks painless spanks are some sort of punishment).

I would also add that leaving your husband would do far more damage to your children than any physical punshiment could.

Pax Christi

 

[severus68]

I’m not there, and based on your description, I can’t judge whether your husband as “crossed the line” or not. Some red marks fade away in a few minutes. Some stay for days. Hitting with an object, a “switch”, may be innappropriate depending on what the object is and how it is used, but it is not always innappropriate. Disciplining in a spirit of anger can lead to problems, but at the same time we discipline our kids when they are misbehaving which also happens to be a time that we are not pleased and prone to anger.

I will in charity offer one critique of *your *spanking method though. You say that you spank, but not hard. If you are not going to spank them so they can feel it, then I believe you are better off not spanking at all. The purpose of the spank is to instill discipline through pain compliance, it’s not supposed to feel good. If the spank is a symbolic act, that doesn’t bother the child at all because you aren’t striking hard enough for them to feel it, it actually makes matters worse by eroding your authority. The child misbehaved and was essentially unpunished and his parent looks feeble (not strong enough to hit hard) or clueless (thinks painless spanks are some sort of punishment).

I would also add that leaving your husband would do far more damage to your children than any physical punshiment could.

Pax Christi

I disagree strongly. Spanking young children on the bottom is to get their attention and distract them from their unacceptable behaviour, it is not to cause them pain. If pain is caused then the parent has lost his/her temper and control. It is not about power and control because of size. A six year old is not responsible for a ‘crime’ even under the law.

Children grow up. Some may understand the strain and stresses that caused a parent to hit and cause pain. Some may not. Whichever, it is so wrong.

 

[Bezant]

I would recommend that you check your local laws, which are more relevant to you than our personal views.

Since you asked, I agree with you; spanking is a good method of discipline. This is how people have been disciplined for generations. Now, not every child needs to be spanked, and there are other ways to train him. But I know many people who grew into successful, confident, respectful adults, and their parents spanked them. In my background, there’s nothing wrong with using a belt or a switch. It was (still is) normal in my family’s country for adults in the community to spank a neighbours’ child if the parents weren’t about.

But there’s a limit to where and what extent parents can hit which brings me to your post:

My husband hit my son hard on the back and neck. He had a very large red mark where he was hit and also he hit his head and has a “goose egg” and a bruise.My husband said he didn’t mean to cause him to hit his head and I told him that means he did something wrong.

He has left bruises in the past and left welts and red hand prints on my sons butt, legs, and back.

I have told my husband i wont be able to stay with him if he doesn’t stop. That it hurts me when he hits them. I don’t know what to do. Almost every time he hits one of them we end up fighting, frequently in front of the kid which I know is bad. I’ll say things that shouldn’t be said in front of the kids or he will (I am more guilty of this though) And i feel bad for it later, but I can’t stop myself when i’m that upset about somethign that is happening to one of my sons.

Dad’s excuse, that he meant to hit the child on the neck, doesn’t fly whatsoever. The head and neck are definitely off-limits, because God forbid there’s an accident, your son could become injured, and both you and Dad could face serious charges. This is how people’s lives are carelessly ruined. Even hitting the back can pose the danger of spinal injury.

And hitting hard enough to leave marks–particularly bruises–is unreasonably excessive, considering the boy’s six. Leaving marks can potentially bring you legal trouble.

Your husband has an anger problem, and above all I don’t like the fact that 1) he doesn’t realise how serious it is to hit the neck, and 2) that he’s resisted your objections, to the point where you have consider leaving him. While I’m not telling you to leave your husband, if Dad refuses to control himself, you will need to make good on your threat and protect yourself and your family, before something goes wrong.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I disagree strongly. Spanking young children on the bottom is to get their attention and distract them from their unacceptable behaviour, it is not to cause them pain. If pain is caused then the parent has lost his/her temper and control. It is not about power and control because of size. A six year old is not responsible for a ‘crime’ even under the law.

Children grow up. Some may understand the strain and stresses that caused a parent to hit and cause pain. Some may not. Whichever, it is so wrong.

Why does spanking “get their attention”? Because it hurts. There is a difference between pain and injury. The other day I was careless taking a hot pot out of the oven and brushed my finger against it. It hurt, I changed what I was doing. I wasn’t injured though, it didn’t even leave a mark. The pain served a purpose though and let me know I needed to do something differently.

If spanking was only about getting attention or distracting children then it seems like a very odd way of doing those things. You could distract your misbehaving child by giving them a new toy to play with.

Inflicting pain does not necessitate a loss of self control, although to be sure the temptation is always there. A police man can use pain compliance on a person resisting arrest and not have lost control. An athlete can give a hard check to an opponent, causing pain, and not have lost control. A parent can give a hard swat to a child and not have lost control.

It is interesting that not more responders felt the need to reply to the OP’s expressed opinion that* she is thinking of leaving her husband.* Again, that would be a far more damaging thing for her children than any physical punshiment their father could give them.

The husband did not hit the child in the head. The child hit himself in the head. That is quite possible, a 6 year old is stronger than some people think, and can squirm quite a bit. Did dad lose his temper? Maybe. Was he in control, and the child accidently bumped himself? Maybe. I wasn’t there.

I’d suggest that the OP follow what she has already told herself, and limit discussion on this matter with her husband to times when the children are not in earshot. Arguing in front of them, especially over discipline, undermines the authority of* both* parents.

Pray for your husband. Discuss your concerns with him. Not nag. Not threaten. Not complain. Discuss.

Pax Christi

 

[lauraabarlow]

Your post frightens me-I worry that your husband will lose his anger to the poing of seriously injuring your sons. Hitting on the head and back is a definite no-no-he can rupture their kidney or cause brain trauma-under no circumstances should your sons be hit is that manner-spanking and hitting is two different things. I see nothing wrong with spanking-generations of our parents and grandparents were spanked and turned out just fine. But hitting leaving goose bump on the head? Thank goodness your son didn’t suffer concussion. I don’t mean to overdramatized-your husband needs anger management help. Please seek counseling with a good priest or therapist-and keep that number handy for domestic abuse-you never know-you may need it although I pray it don’t come to that. Your sons are your number one priority right now-please don’t delay-get help-both both your sake and your sons’ sake. Maybe your husband is under a lot of stress or something-but his anger should never filter over to striking your sons in the manner you have described. I fear that one of them may be seriously hurt someday-please get help now. Hugs…

 

[aloe]

Your husbands behavior is very alarming to me and I understand the need to do everything I could to protect my children from being targets of the abuse that leaves marks all over their bodies. If you are going to leave, document the abuse with pictures and write down as much as possible, otherwise as custody goes he will have them alone to hit as he wishes without you there to intervene.

I don’t find it at all surprising your son hit his dad. The young child is being taught the way to handle anger or emotions is physical with hitting/lashing out. Not a good message to send. He probably doesn’t understand why it is “ok” for big full grown adult men to hit small children, but is not “ok” for him to hit to solve his problems. The child is just parroting what he is being taught. This is how cycles of abuse continue for generations.

 

[lauraabarlow]

Your husbands behavior is very alarming to me and I understand the need to do everything I could to protect my children from being targets of the abuse that leaves marks all over their bodies. If you are going to leave, document the abuse with pictures and write down as much as possible, otherwise as custody goes he will have them alone to hit as he wishes without you there to intervene.

I don’t find it at all surprising your son hit his dad. The young child is being taught the way to handle anger or emotions is physical with hitting/lashing out. Not a good message to send. He probably doesn’t understand why it is “ok” for big full grown adult men to hit small children, but is not “ok” for him to hit to solve his problems. The child is just parroting what he is being taught. This is how cycles of abuse continue for generations.

Hitting the nail on the head-even if you want to work the marriage out (with a good therapist)-seek advice from a good lawyer-or child protective services websit or advocate-please don’t delay-your sons are depending on you to keep them safe.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am not completely against spanking. When I feel my children’s behavior warrants it I will swat their bottom 1-2 times, but not hard. My husband however hits them hard and not always on the bottom. He’ll hit them for reasons i don’t agree with also and he tends to do it way more often when he is angry. Tonight he he heated my 6 year old sons donut up too hot and my son hit my husband, which was of course wrong but I know it couldn’t have hurt. My husband hit my son hard on the back and neck. He had a very large red mark where he was hit and also he hit his head and has a “goose egg” and a bruise.

My husband said he didn’t mean to cause him to hit his head and I told him that means he did something wrong. He has left bruises in the past and left welts and red hand prints on my sons butt, legs, and back. Also while he has never done this he frequently tells me he thinks they should be spanked with a switch or a belt which I’m completely against.

I have told my husband i wont be able to stay with him if he doesn’t stop. That it hurts me when he hits them. I don’t know what to do. Almost every time he hits one of them we end up fighting, frequently in front of the kid which I know is bad. I’ll say things that shouldn’t be said in front of the kids or he will (I am more guilty of this though) And i feel bad for it later, but I can’t stop myself when i’m that upset about somethign that is happening to one of my sons.

Is this YOUR son, or his as well? If this is not their father, you have a huge problem. Not to say the sort of hitting he is doing isn’t wrong even if he IS their father, but when children are abused or killed through abuse, it’s usually a boyfriend or the mother’s husband that does it. Please let me know, because my advice will be different depending on whether or not your husband is your childrens’ father.

 

[Dan_Daly]

Hitting the nail on the head-even if you want to work the marriage out (with a good therapist)-seek advice from a good lawyer-or child protective services websit or advocate-please don’t delay-your sons are depending on you to keep them safe.

The “even if you want to work the marriage out” language is greatly disturbing. If you are married you are married. That’s the truth and that’s what the Church teaches. “Giving up” is not an option, and yet you seem to be implying that perservance is only optional.

Call a lawyer! Call child services! Run for the hills! Go into witness protection!

Not to put too fine a point on it but give me a break. Her husband spanked her son, and her son bumped his head. That is what she said happened. Is her husband an abusive tyrant? Maybe, but nothing in her post is clear evidence that he is.

Before bringing lawyers and social workers into the fray, I think she would do much better for her family if she sits down and talks with her husband in a calm manner and away from the children. Having done that, talking to their priest might be appropriate.

Child abuse is a grave sin. Spanking in and of itself is not abuse. Although, many people think that it is. One of the many things that are good to be discussed between a man and woman before getting married. In this case, they are already married, so like all married couples they need to work through their disagreements. This is best done with love and prayer and humility. Unless there is more to the story that the OP has left out, bringing strangers into the matter and being confrontational rather than understanding towards her husband will make things worse.

Pax Christi

 

[L_piperatus]

I don’t find it at all surprising your son hit his dad. The young child is being taught the way to handle anger or emotions is physical with hitting/lashing out. Not a good message to send. He probably doesn’t understand why it is “ok” for big full grown adult men to hit small children, but is not “ok” for him to hit to solve his problems. The child is just parroting what he is being taught. This is how cycles of abuse continue for generations.

I agree with this analysis. The child already has a problem because he learned the wrong lesson from his (dad) or (stepdad). You will need to teach the child to de-escalate his emotions, to calm down instead of lashing out, and you can do this by staying calm yourself and giving a good example of staying calm, collected, and non-violent. What your husband did is exactly the opposite of what he should have done - by reacting angrily and giving a beating to your child, he only escalated the situation further. You don’t need an escalation of anger and violence in a situation like this - you need de-escalation. It is possible to teach a child self-control, and to teach them that it’s wrong to hit others, without actually beating the child.

Also, Juliane has an important point - is your husband the biological father of the child?

 

[severus68]

Why does spanking “get their attention”? Because it hurts. There is a difference between pain and injury. The other day I was careless taking a hot pot out of the oven and brushed my finger against it. It hurt, I changed what I was doing. I wasn’t injured though, it didn’t even leave a mark. The pain served a purpose though and let me know I needed to do something differently.

If spanking was only about getting attention or distracting children then it seems like a very odd way of doing those things. You could distract your misbehaving child by giving them a new toy to play with.

Inflicting pain does not necessitate a loss of self control, although to be sure the temptation is always there. A police man can use pain compliance on a person resisting arrest and not have lost control. An athlete can give a hard check to an opponent, causing pain, and not have lost control. A parent can give a hard swat to a child and not have lost control.

It is interesting that not more responders felt the need to reply to the OP’s expressed opinion that* she is thinking of leaving her husband.* Again, that would be a far more damaging thing for her children than any physical punshiment their father could give them.

The husband did not hit the child in the head. The child hit himself in the head. That is quite possible, a 6 year old is stronger than some people think, and can squirm quite a bit. Did dad lose his temper? Maybe. Was he in control, and the child accidently bumped himself? Maybe. I wasn’t there.

I’d suggest that the OP follow what she has already told herself, and limit discussion on this matter with her husband to times when the children are not in earshot. Arguing in front of them, especially over discipline, undermines the authority of* both* parents.

Pray for your husband. Discuss your concerns with him. Not nag. Not threaten. Not complain. Discuss.

Pax Christi

I quote the OP:

"My husband hit my son hard on the back and neck. He had a very large red mark where he was hit and also he hit his head and has a “goose egg” and a bruise.

My husband said he didn’t mean to cause him to hit his head and I told him that means he did something wrong."

Anyone who does something to deliberately cause real pain has something wrong with him/her with the exception of a cop trying to stop an offender who has or is about to commit a serious crime.

Using your example, should we then deliberately let our young children suffer slight burns from a hot stove or oven so they will learn? I think lessons can be taught in much kinder ways.

The OP obviously fears for the safety of her child. She is trying to stop her husband from this sort of hitting of her six year old. If the only way she can do so is to threaten to leave, then she should. If he continues then she may have to leave if only to protect her child. Obviously, we can only go by the facts given by the OP. She would best know the position. However, no one owes her/his spouse any obligation to stay in a marriage wher the children are not safe.

 

[severus68]

Your husbands behavior is very alarming to me and I understand the need to do everything I could to protect my children from being targets of the abuse that leaves marks all over their bodies. If you are going to leave, document the abuse with pictures and write down as much as possible, otherwise as custody goes he will have them alone to hit as he wishes without you there to intervene.

I don’t find it at all surprising your son hit his dad. The young child is being taught the way to handle anger or emotions is physical with hitting/lashing out. Not a good message to send. He probably doesn’t understand why it is “ok” for big full grown adult men to hit small children, but is not “ok” for him to hit to solve his problems. The child is just parroting what he is being taught. This is how cycles of abuse continue for generations.

Well said. Violence begets violence.

 

[Megan036]

I’m not there, and based on your description, I can’t judge whether your husband as “crossed the line” or not. Some red marks fade away in a few minutes. Some stay for days. Hitting with an object, a “switch”, may be innappropriate depending on what the object is and how it is used, but it is not always innappropriate. Disciplining in a spirit of anger can lead to problems, but at the same time we discipline our kids when they are misbehaving which also happens to be a time that we are not pleased and prone to anger.

I will in charity offer one critique of *your *spanking method though. You say that you spank, but not hard. If you are not going to spank them so they can feel it, then I believe you are better off not spanking at all. The purpose of the spank is to instill discipline through pain compliance, it’s not supposed to feel good. If the spank is a symbolic act, that doesn’t bother the child at all because you aren’t striking hard enough for them to feel it, it actually makes matters worse by eroding your authority. The child misbehaved and was essentially unpunished and his parent looks feeble (not strong enough to hit hard) or clueless (thinks painless spanks are some sort of punishment).

I would also add that leaving your husband would do far more damage to your children than any physical punshiment could.

Pax Christi

I completely disagree with you. if you are hitting your children to inflict pain then I believe you don’t love your children as much as I love mine. I spank them to get their attention, and it works. Yes I have spanked them harder a few times when they really did something bad I felt they needed to learn the lesson and nothing else would work. I felt terrible after. My kids listen to me and respect me. The do not listen to their father. A lot of that has to do with us arguing and I’m clearly mad at him for his actions. But like I said before I can’t help myself when I feel my children are being mistreated. I can not watch him hit one of them and then talk later. I usually tell him to stop.

 

[Megan036]

Is this YOUR son, or his as well? If this is not their father, you have a huge problem. Not to say the sort of hitting he is doing isn’t wrong even if he IS their father, but when children are abused or killed through abuse, it’s usually a boyfriend or the mother’s husband that does it. Please let me know, because my advice will be different depending on whether or not your husband is your childrens’ father.

He is the father. I should have said Our son… etc. Sorry for the confusion. He is the father of our 3 sons and we have a baby on the way.

 

[Megan036]

The “even if you want to work the marriage out” language is greatly disturbing. If you are married you are married. That’s the truth and that’s what the Church teaches. “Giving up” is not an option, and yet you seem to be implying that perservance is only optional.

Call a lawyer! Call child services! Run for the hills! Go into witness protection!

Not to put too fine a point on it but give me a break. Her husband spanked her son, and her son bumped his head. That is what she said happened. Is her husband an abusive tyrant? Maybe, but nothing in her post is clear evidence that he is.

Before bringing lawyers and social workers into the fray, I think she would do much better for her family if she sits down and talks with her husband in a calm manner and away from the children. Having done that, talking to their priest might be appropriate.

Child abuse is a grave sin. Spanking in and of itself is not abuse. Although, many people think that it is. One of the many things that are good to be discussed between a man and woman before getting married. In this case, they are already married, so like all married couples they need to work through their disagreements. This is best done with love and prayer and humility. Unless there is more to the story that the OP has left out, bringing strangers into the matter and being confrontational rather than understanding towards her husband will make things worse.

Pax Christi

I agree with you that marrige is for life. I will never file for divorce. But I will get out of the house if I have to. My husband and I have many marital problems but we work through them. I wish my husband wouldn’t spank them at all because he so easily loses his temper. I finally told him that a few months back and he said ok that he wouldn’t, but that meant I couldn’t either so I agreed. He spanked one of them the very next day. I lose my temper too, but I raise my voice at the kids when I do get angry. And I tell our children that I shouldn’t have lost my cool and yelled out of anger. I don’t want to leave him. He loves me and our kids. But I want him to seek help, he wont because he doesn’t think there is a problem. I think I will have to go talk to our Priest alone because i doubt he’ll go with me.