Is it really lying if God does it?

[mpartyka]

Generally speaking, the 10 Commandments don’t apply to God but to human beings only. God’s never going to put another god before Himself. God works on the Sabbath as if it were any other day of the week. God has no mother or father to honor. God can’t steal because everything ultimately belongs to Him. God doesn’t have sex, so God won’t commit adultery. When God takes a human life, it isn’t murder because God has the right to do what He wills with anything He created.

What about lying, though? Humans, obviously, are bound not to bear false witness by the Law. I think we all assume that God is equally bound because, hey, God is truth, right? Jesus called himself “the truth” in addition to “the way” and “the life”. Jesus called God “the only true God.” One would think that, taken together, all this means that God cannot lie. But does it?

Is it ever right to lie? Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies from being captured and killed. Rebecca lied about her theft from Laban to protect Jacob’s good name. Plenty of people lied during WWII to keep Jews safe from capture by the Nazis. Police will sometimes lie to a suspect in trying to evoke a confession. Will anyone argue that in any of these cases, it was wrong for the liars to lie?

Well, if WE can get around the ban on lying under the right circumstances, why can’t God?

–Mike

 

[LilyM]

Who says God works on the Sabbath? He rested on the seventh day in Genesis, for sure! He’s outside of time, remember, so the fact that the world keeps spinning on Sundays doesn’t mean He’s working on that day.

Truth being what God IS, rather than what He does, He has no option but to be truthful any more than you have an option to be shorter than you are, or to have different coloured eyes than you do.

Lying? There’s a lot of debate about it - I should know, I’ve participated in it enough! Certainly circumstances surrounding the lie can make it at least a very minor venial sin, if not possibly remove guilt altogether. That would be where people like Rahab, who possibly told a porky to save lives, come into the picture.

And we aren’t bound to tell the WHOLE truth to those who aren’t entitled to know it, so half-truths or evasions (as long as they’re not outright falsehoods) are OK in some circumstances.

I’m of the opinion that Rahab’s act was possibly one of these. She was a harlot, so of course had many visitors over the course of a day. Someone comes looking for two people, but doesn’t specify WHICH two of her visitors they’re after! So it may be that she misleads without lying - by telling them truthfully that two OTHERS have left etc etc.

 

[Dchsknight]

Generally speaking, the 10 Commandments don’t apply to God but to human beings only. God’s never going to put another god before Himself. God works on the Sabbath as if it were any other day of the week. God has no mother or father to honor. God can’t steal because everything ultimately belongs to Him. God doesn’t have , so God won’t commit ery. When God takes a human life, it isn’t because God has the right to do what He wills with anything He created.

What about lying, though? Humans, obviously, are bound not to bear false witness by the Law. I think we all assume that God is equally bound because, hey, God is truth, right? Jesus called himself “the truth” in addition to “the way” and “the life”. Jesus called God “the only true God.” One would think that, taken together, all this means that God cannot lie. But does it?

Is it ever right to lie? Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies from being captured and killed. Rebecca lied about her theft from Laban to protect Jacob’s good name. Plenty of people lied during WWII to keep Jews safe from capture by the s. Police will sometimes lie to a suspect in trying to evoke a confession. Will anyone argue that in any of these cases, it was wrong for the liars to lie?

Well, if WE can get around the ban on lying under the right circumstances, why can’t God?

–Mike

Well first off, It is always wrong to Lie. Lying is straight from the hand of the devil. Christ even said Liars will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

That being said. When you lie, you risk your soul, your very life. Now that being said, Jesus said, there is not greater love, then for a man to lay down his life for another.

All of the Commandments, save for some, seem to be breakable, for the right reason. God said Anger is a Sin, but there is anger that right and not sinful. God said don’t be prideful, but there is Pride that is from God and Righteous. It seems to me, that it is a matter of the Heart. God said Do not Kill/Murder (Depending on which Translation you read) yet Joshua is one of the greatest men in the Old Testament. David, Mur.der, Liar, Adu.lterer, yet a man after God’s own Heart.

If i was in Na.zi germany hiding a jew and na.zi’s came to my house and asked if i had a jew there, heck yes i would lie and risk my eternal home to save that person, because i love that person enough to risk my soul. Was it wrong for me to preform the act of lying, yes, was it for a good reason, heck yes, will God damn me for it, most likely not, would i need to confess my lie, Yes. What it comes down to, and it is always comes down to this, your heart. Why did you lie? To protect someone else. Why did Rahab lie to the king of Jericho? to Protect the Spies? no, it had nothing to do with the spies, it had everything to do with the fact that she knew that the God of the Spies was the one true God, she had better obey him, rather then the king of Jericho and she had to make sure that Those spies were safe. Again a matter of the Heart, Rahab knew that lying was wrong, she was also a pros.titute. She knew that she had to answer to a greater power, and when you stand before your God, would you rather answer to the charge, Why did you open your mouth and get my people killed? or Why did you lie?

I would rather answer “Why did you lie?” because my answer would be, I lied to protect your people. He might answer “My people dont need you to protect them…” and i would take what ever consequence God had for me, knowing what i did was right…

NOW would there be any consequence? I don’t think so. I risked my Very soul, to protect and love some one and God says that there is no greater love then that.

Now can God lie? No, he can not, which is a hard concept because God can do what ever he wants, how ever he wants when ever he wants… But if God could lie, and did lie, then Jesus is a Liar, because he would have sinned, Because God and Jesus are the same person, and that would have meant that Jesus Sinned. So can God Lie to be quite honest ,and i know i contradict my self, yes, will he ever lie, Nope, because he said he won’t.

But to be quite honest, these questions, can God lie, Can he not lie, If he can do anything, can he make a rock so big and heavy he cant lift it, can he make a square Circle, are honestly stupid and sinful in themselves. God said DO NOT TEST ME. There is only one thing that God said to test him on and that was Tithing. Now is it ok to search the nature of God, yes, because it gets us to know him better, Just dont test him. You will find that God answer’s test, with dea.th, punishment, Destruction, plagues, and all around bad things. So dont do it. It is like a parent that tells a Child not to stick a knife in the electrical Socket, your gonna get burned…

 

[StCsDavid]

I believe you are falling into the trap of considering God as an elevated version of ourselves when He is infinitely greater. While with God it is possible for Him to do whatever he wills, it seems difficult to imagine the end that would be served by deception. Instead of a God who is love, you would have a God who is ego.

Also, how do we know that any of the characters of the Bible who lied, were not held accountable for that lie upon their death? Their deception may have been rewarded in Earthly terms, but no one can really say that their lie assisted in their eternal salvation.

 

[LilyM]

I believe you are falling into the trap of considering God as an elevated version of ourselves when He is infinitely greater. While with God it is possible for Him to do whatever he wills, it seems difficult to imagine the end that would be served by deception. Instead of a God who is love, you would have a God who is ego.

Also, how do we know that any of the characters of the Bible who lied, were not held accountable for that lie upon their death? Their deception may have been rewarded in Earthly terms, but no one can really say that their lie assisted in their eternal salvation.

Paul indicates otherwise about Rahab - “By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.”—Hebrews 11:31.

 

[Dchsknight]

I believe you are falling into the trap of considering God as an elevated version of ourselves when He is infinitely greater. While with God it is possible for Him to do whatever he wills, it seems difficult to imagine the end that would be served by deception. Instead of a God who is love, you would have a God who is ego.

Also, how do we know that any of the characters of the Bible who lied, were not held accountable for that lie upon their ? Their deception may have been rewarded in Earthly terms, but no one can really say that their lie assisted in their eternal salvation.

Really, Explain the holocaust then? God in his prophesies said that before the end times Irseal would become a Nation again. Isreal had become scattered and broken and Faithless…I know it sounds harsh… But Think about it, How do you get a people group back together again, from ALL OVER THE GLOBE… just an idea. The Holocaust was still a dreadful thing and what Hit.ler did was straight from the Hand of the Devil, but God can use pain and hurt and dea.th to get his will done. Prime Example: Jesus, enough said.

 

[LilyM]

Really, Explain the holocaust then? God in his prophesies said that before the end times Irseal would become a Nation again. Isreal had become scattered and broken and Faithless…I know it sounds harsh… But Think about it, How do you get a people group back together again, from ALL OVER THE GLOBE… just an idea. The Holocaust was still a dreadful thing and what Hit.ler did was straight from the Hand of the Devil, but God can use pain and hurt and dea.th to get his will done. Prime Example: Jesus, enough said.

God in his prophesies also said a virgin would give birth - and to a child who, while human, would also be, as Isaiah said, ‘Mighty God, the Everlasting Father’.

Equally ‘impossible’, on the face of it. But it happened!

 

[StCsDavid]

Really, Explain the holocaust then? God in his prophesies said that before the end times Irseal would become a Nation again. Isreal had become scattered and broken and Faithless…I know it sounds harsh… But Think about it, How do you get a people group back together again, from ALL OVER THE GLOBE… just an idea. The Holocaust was still a dreadful thing and what Hit.ler did was straight from the Hand of the Devil, but God can use pain and hurt and dea.th to get his will done. Prime Example: Jesus, enough said.

Hmmmm…well, before the end times Israel did become a nation again. I believe it was after the Babylonian exile. The end times began with the life, death and resurrection of Christ; so I would argue against the notion that the Holocaust was any kind of fulfillment of biblical prophecy. I believe the OP’s question was would God use lying to get his will done versus using pain and death.

 

[AHapka]

Generally speaking, the 10 Commandments don’t apply to God but to human beings only. …Is it ever right to lie? Rahab lied to protect the Israelite spies from being captured and killed.

Hmm…to throw a wrench into the whole discussion. Didn’t Rahab do what she did before the 10 Commandments?

How does that affect things?

 

[Dchsknight]

Hmm…to throw a wrench into the whole discussion. Didn’t Rahab do what she did before the 10 Commandments?

How does that affect things?

No rahab is after Moses’s , they had the 10 commandments, it is better to argue, she was a Gentile, and the Commandments were to the Jews…

 

[buffalo]

Here is what the Catechism teaches:

IV. RESPECT FOR THE TRUTH
[2488](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2488.htm’) The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
[2489](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2489.htm’) Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283
[2490](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2490.htm’) The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason."284
2491 Professional secrets - for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers - or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason.
[2492](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2492.htm’) Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons’ private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.

 

[mpartyka]

I guess what I’m asking, then, is whether it is morally okay and consistent with God’s character for Him to lie to us for our own benefit? Like, is it possible that God could say to Himself, “If I tell this human the truth about such-and-such, or if I remain silent about it, then this human is going to use that knowledge or silence to commit a sin and do harm to himself. Therefore, I will tell him a lie so that, in acting upon the lie, he will do something else which results in his doing good to himself”?

–Mike

 

[AHapka]

I guess what I’m asking, then, is whether it is morally okay and consistent with God’s character for Him to lie to us for our own benefit? Like, is it possible that God could say to Himself, “If I tell this human the truth about such-and-such, or if I remain silent about it, then this human is going to use that knowledge or silence to commit a sin and do harm to himself. Therefore, I will tell him a lie so that, in acting upon the lie, he will do something else which results in his doing good to himself”?

–Mike

Jesus chose to remain silent while being questioned by the pharisees. And while being struck and told to tell him who was hitting him (even though he obviously knew).

Perhaps that’s an example for us?

 

[Dchsknight]

I guess what I’m asking, then, is whether it is morally okay and consistent with God’s character for Him to lie to us for our own benefit? Like, is it possible that God could say to Himself, “If I tell this human the truth about such-and-such, or if I remain silent about it, then this human is going to use that knowledge or silence to commit a sin and do harm to himself. Therefore, I will tell him a lie so that, in acting upon the lie, he will do something else which results in his doing good to himself”?

–Mike

GOD CAN NOT LIE, BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD NOT LIE! Remaining silent is not lying. Lying in anyway shape or Form is a sin, God can not sin. Can good come of sin, yes, but God can not sin, Thus He can not Lie, MAINLY beause he said he would never lie.

 

[davymax3]

I guess what I’m asking, then, is whether it is morally okay and consistent with God’s character for Him to lie to us for our own benefit? Like, is it possible that God could say to Himself, “If I tell this human the truth about such-and-such, or if I remain silent about it, then this human is going to use that knowledge or silence to commit a sin and do harm to himself. Therefore, I will tell him a lie so that, in acting upon the lie, he will do something else which results in his doing good to himself”?

–Mike

First off, what a lie is, has been debated for a long time even until now. Personally, I think it’s an intentionally false statement that leads someone into error or sin. I would not confess telling a murderer that the victim he was seeking was not at my house or had gone to the moon or whatever. In fact, my statement would lead him out of sin. This is a difficult point though, because we can start making excuses for ourselves to easy.

God does exist outside of time, but Christ lived with us. So, that’s where you should look I think. If we look at the temptations of Christ I think you’ll find your answer. The devil tempts Jesus, telling him to turn the stones into bread and the people will love him. But Christ says, “man does not live on bread alone.” I think these speaks volumes about Christ’s faith in us. Whenever someone comes to me struggling with something or I am struggling with some sin, I think of this line and think, well Christ knows that I can get by and has given me what I need to overcome. Christ was tempted into “tricking” us with bread, but He knows that we can choose correctly and He would rather us freely choose him, not through trickery or lies, but through the Truth.

 

[Michael_David]

I guess what I’m asking, then, is whether it is morally okay and consistent with God’s character for Him to lie to us for our own benefit? Like, is it possible that God could say to Himself, “If I tell this human the truth about such-and-such, or if I remain silent about it, then this human is going to use that knowledge or silence to commit a sin and do harm to himself. Therefore, I will tell him a lie so that, in acting upon the lie, he will do something else which results in his doing good to himself”?

–Mike

Yes, what is a lie?
If the Apostles were with Christ for some 3 years, listening to Him, observing His miracles, being privy to the meaning of His Parables, and still did not FULLY understand (comprehend) what Christ was talking about (as Peter displayed when he wanted Christ to stay safe, rather then go to His Passion)… until the Holy Spirit descended on them… was the 3 years with Christ’s Words/Actions a form of a lie due to the lack of comprehension of the Apostles until the Holy Spirit “lit the spiritual bulb” so their mind’s could ‘understand’? Didn’t Christ have to be Truthful? Yet, that Truth became misunderstood by the Apostles, as the Parables were “head scratchers” for most of those that heard them (even today)… without the Holy Spirits aid.

So, if God IS speaking the Truth, be we are not HEARING it… is it a lie He speaks?
Does the Truth then become from the one speaking it, or the one hearing it? Perhaps incorrectly! It would seem that without the Holy Spirit’s assistance, whoever hears will not understand and therefore for them, it will seem like a lie (even though it is not), in their lack of comprehension.

Again, who understands God? The other 2 Persons of the Trinity do. Does anyone else? Does anyone understand the Whole of God? Or just (perhaps) their own personal mission while here on earth as instructed by the Spirit. Who can comprehend Entirety while living Personally. Humility comes in about here. There are a lot of things we will not understand without ‘seeming’ contradiction… although in the spiritual, it is not.

Does a child understand the Fullness of the parent? Until they too become one?
Does the parent love their child? Of course! But it is a matter of development for the child before the full understanding is comprehended… and this through living this life.

Can one lie by actions, without saying a word? Is one still then, true to themselves?