J
Joan_M
Guest
- Status
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Joan M:
Noone warned me because other than a tiny fraction of the public, by definition, is all on the same road. When I take what I hear here literally, the numbers become startling, Heaven will be a very empty place.
I do not come from a religious environment. No (or very few) religious friends, family is pretty much cradle cafeteria Catholics, 90+% of collegues are not religious at all beyond maybe a thought or two at Christmas and Easter. I think in this respect I am outside the demographic of the people that frequent these forums (i’ve come to learn).
Based on your quote above, and combined with Jesus’s telling us we are not to worry and not to be anxious etc. (I believe he stated this somehow, I don’t know where to find it in the Bible, again, I am a new revert). How am I to reconcile the idea that virtually everyone I know, and especially those of whom I love with all my heart are, as you put it: “on the road to Hell”? Evangelizing aside. I say “Evangelizing aside” because I am doing that with my immediate family and have to weigh evangelizing too loudly as to lose them with not evangelizing loud enough and not being heard.
If getting of topic is a mortal sin I’d better run to confession :yup: .
Noone warned me because other than a tiny fraction of the public, by definition, is all on the same road. When I take what I hear here literally, the numbers become startling, Heaven will be a very empty place.
I do not come from a religious environment. No (or very few) religious friends, family is pretty much cradle cafeteria Catholics, 90+% of collegues are not religious at all beyond maybe a thought or two at Christmas and Easter. I think in this respect I am outside the demographic of the people that frequent these forums (i’ve come to learn).
Based on your quote above, and combined with Jesus’s telling us we are not to worry and not to be anxious etc. (I believe he stated this somehow, I don’t know where to find it in the Bible, again, I am a new revert). How am I to reconcile the idea that virtually everyone I know, and especially those of whom I love with all my heart are, as you put it: “on the road to Hell”? Evangelizing aside. I say “Evangelizing aside” because I am doing that with my immediate family and have to weigh evangelizing too loudly as to lose them with not evangelizing loud enough and not being heard.
B
brabble
Guest
Laws, rules and legalism doesn’t wash with God - God is Love.As St. Augustine said “Love and do what you will”. St. Augustine is not recommending licentiousness, because being a lover of God he understands something very powerful about love. So I would say Javelin - strive to Love God in all things and then do what you will!
With a smile and a wink and eyes on God;)
J
JimG
Guest
I think that it’s been said several times that if you are in a location where Mass is not available–climbing a mountaing, at sea, etc,–there is no obligation. And you say that several priests have told you this, so what are you worried about?
But you seemed for awhile to be arguing against the very idea of a Sunday Mass obligation. In the normal course of events, it* is * a serious matter to attend Mass on the Lord’s Day.
Now you mention many friends who may not be religious. The Sunday Mass obligation is intended for Catholics, first of all. And even for Catholics, lack of catechesis, lack of knowledge, lack of the intention of contempt for the Sabbath, are all mitigating factors. No one is in a position to judge the conscience of another except his confessor. But Catholics who know better should evangelize at least by their example.
But you seemed for awhile to be arguing against the very idea of a Sunday Mass obligation. In the normal course of events, it* is * a serious matter to attend Mass on the Lord’s Day.
Now you mention many friends who may not be religious. The Sunday Mass obligation is intended for Catholics, first of all. And even for Catholics, lack of catechesis, lack of knowledge, lack of the intention of contempt for the Sabbath, are all mitigating factors. No one is in a position to judge the conscience of another except his confessor. But Catholics who know better should evangelize at least by their example.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
JimG, Maybe I wasn’t clear. I think Sunday Mass obligation important, and should be cherished.
As far as for the friends, I appreaciate your answer and feel likewise.
Thanks,
–Mike
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
Yes, but is scheduling such trips a sin in and of itself since you know already that it would prevent you from attending mass. One didn’t just ‘find themselves’ in the middle of nowhere…they actually planned it that way…Are you obliged to schedule any fishing/mountain/ocean trips between Mon-Saturday?
M
Mijoy2
Guest
YingYangMom, Our wonderful society has structed a M-F 9-5 world. It’s impossible for most of us to schedule things that last more then a few hours during the work week.
M
mercygate
Guest
No, you’re not – We’re talking about the occasional weekend, here. And if one is out in the middle of the Ocean, one might go through the Mass up through the liturgy of the Word, and then make a spiritual Communion . . .
J
JimG
Guest
I agree. There’s no sin involved in scheduling such a trip.
B
baltobetsy
Guest
Or invite your priest to go fishing with you and offer Mass on the boat!
Betsy
B
bear06
Guest
Hey Javelin,
I’d ask the AAA forum. This should be a fairly easy answer for them.
My best guess would be that if you know what the Church teaches on Faith and Morals and you decide that you don’t buy it the sin might be even more than just the particular one you are talking about. One might have just crossed over into some heresy or schism where they’ve set themself up as a higher authority than the Magisterium of the Church. It would seem that a person in question would probably have committed a mortal sin.
I’d ask the AAA forum. This should be a fairly easy answer for them.
My best guess would be that if you know what the Church teaches on Faith and Morals and you decide that you don’t buy it the sin might be even more than just the particular one you are talking about. One might have just crossed over into some heresy or schism where they’ve set themself up as a higher authority than the Magisterium of the Church. It would seem that a person in question would probably have committed a mortal sin.
J
javelin
Guest
It is a bit more complicated than “just not buying it”, though. Practical experience makes this a very difficult teaching to take.
For instance, if it simply a matter of saying “If you hear what the Church teaches and reject it, you are in mortal sin”, then virtually every protestant and ALL Catholics who have fallen into protestantism are damned unless they have sacramental confession or a perfect act of contrition prior to death. That’s pretty heavy, and extremely broad.
Practical experience says there are many protestants with tremendous faith in God who are living that faith such that there is little doubt they will ultimately be with Christ (after the purgatory they deny exists). Yet those same people may be using ABC and have caused an abortion – intrinsically evil, mortally sinful actions (I’m not sure that using ABC in and of itself is mortally sinful, but abortion is).
I tend to think it is much more difficult to commit mortal sin than some seem to make it. It seems that a direct act of willful, knowledgeable denial of God is what it would take for mortal sin, and nearly all Christians striving to love God would never do that. If they truly understood the choices before them, they would choose God.
I’m not trying to self-justify, just better understand the line between God’s Love and His Justice.
Peace,
javelin
For instance, if it simply a matter of saying “If you hear what the Church teaches and reject it, you are in mortal sin”, then virtually every protestant and ALL Catholics who have fallen into protestantism are damned unless they have sacramental confession or a perfect act of contrition prior to death. That’s pretty heavy, and extremely broad.
Practical experience says there are many protestants with tremendous faith in God who are living that faith such that there is little doubt they will ultimately be with Christ (after the purgatory they deny exists). Yet those same people may be using ABC and have caused an abortion – intrinsically evil, mortally sinful actions (I’m not sure that using ABC in and of itself is mortally sinful, but abortion is).
I tend to think it is much more difficult to commit mortal sin than some seem to make it. It seems that a direct act of willful, knowledgeable denial of God is what it would take for mortal sin, and nearly all Christians striving to love God would never do that. If they truly understood the choices before them, they would choose God.
I’m not trying to self-justify, just better understand the line between God’s Love and His Justice.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
They actually answered a question very similar here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4264
It is still, however, (IMHO) pretty ambiguous about what level of knowledge is necessary for something to be mortal.
Peace,
javelin
B
bear06
Guest
I think the best rule of thumb is to keep the toe away from the line! I see so many people wondering how far they can go before they sin, commit and mortal sin vs. venial, etc. It’s almost like a game of Russian Roulette!
B
Benignus
Guest
I think it really depends on whether you KNOW in your heart that it is mortally sinful, yet choose to ignore it, or if you genuinely do not know that what you are doing is mortally sinful. I mean, I know that stealing is mortally sinful, yet I could still go out and steal and ignore the fact that it is mortally sinful. On the other hand, if I actually did not know that it was mortally sinful, that would be another story…
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Dear javelin,
It’s nice to run across you again! Here is a caution for those who have seen a lot of my other posts: be careful not to croak when you hear my opinion on this.
DianJo:
What is “moral?” What Jesus thought was moral? Are we limited in our moral understanding to only those precise things Jesus taught, or those directly applicable? If not, what or whose standard of “morality” shall we then use? If we agree we will use the Church as infallible teacher of faith and morals then she is the standard, not Christ in a direct way as in “we have a personal relationship” or something like that.
I may think that the whole concept of categorizing sins into mortal and venial is silly and legalistic.
I may think that telling a person they are going to go to hell because they miss Mass on Sunday is counterproductive and/or displeasing to God.
I may think that a person who normally goes three times per week can skip an occasional Sunday and be OK.
None of those change what the Church says. Rules are rules. We play by the rules or we don’t. Personally, I don’t always believe in the rules but I play by them at least to the degree that I am going to get caught or that I might cause others to “sin” based on their weakness. Like Paul, I tend to think that all things are permissible if I have a good conscience about it. That doesn’t make me a good Catholic according to some definitions, but nevertheless I am still Catholic and in good standing as far as anybody is concerned.
Oh, and before anybody questions me, I don’t know how many years it’s been since I missed Mass on Sunday. Normally I go to two Masses at two different churches because I play organ at both (one Saturday 4 pm and one Sunday 8 am), but I honestly can’t remember missing Sunday Mass the past 20 years or so, even when out of town.
Still when it boils down to it, if you wanna claim you’re a Catholic, then you should accept that missing Mass is a mortal sin whether or not you personally agree that the Church should have declared it so.
Alan
It’s nice to run across you again! Here is a caution for those who have seen a lot of my other posts: be careful not to croak when you hear my opinion on this.
DianJo makes it sound simple, and her post is one that I might have scolded a few weeks ago. Today I’ve come to a realization about those who really believe the Church is the infallible teacher of faith and morals. Therefore I’m inclined to agree with her if your beliefs are on that basis, and she has put it right there with no more or less complexity than a “believer” with normal intellect needs to hear.
What is “moral?” What Jesus thought was moral? Are we limited in our moral understanding to only those precise things Jesus taught, or those directly applicable? If not, what or whose standard of “morality” shall we then use? If we agree we will use the Church as infallible teacher of faith and morals then she is the standard, not Christ in a direct way as in “we have a personal relationship” or something like that.
I may think that the whole concept of categorizing sins into mortal and venial is silly and legalistic.
I may think that telling a person they are going to go to hell because they miss Mass on Sunday is counterproductive and/or displeasing to God.
I may think that a person who normally goes three times per week can skip an occasional Sunday and be OK.
None of those change what the Church says. Rules are rules. We play by the rules or we don’t. Personally, I don’t always believe in the rules but I play by them at least to the degree that I am going to get caught or that I might cause others to “sin” based on their weakness. Like Paul, I tend to think that all things are permissible if I have a good conscience about it. That doesn’t make me a good Catholic according to some definitions, but nevertheless I am still Catholic and in good standing as far as anybody is concerned.
Oh, and before anybody questions me, I don’t know how many years it’s been since I missed Mass on Sunday. Normally I go to two Masses at two different churches because I play organ at both (one Saturday 4 pm and one Sunday 8 am), but I honestly can’t remember missing Sunday Mass the past 20 years or so, even when out of town.
Still when it boils down to it, if you wanna claim you’re a Catholic, then you should accept that missing Mass is a mortal sin whether or not you personally agree that the Church should have declared it so.
Alan
K
kage_ar
Guest
Someone I know is Catholic and an avid hunter. When he will be taking a hunting trip over Sat/Sun, he speaks to his Priest before the trip, each time. Father releases him from his obilgation for that week.
M
martino
Guest
whoever said you have to understand why the Church teaches some particular thing? the condition is that you must “know” that it is sinful, that is to say that the Church clearly teaches it is sinful, as long as you know this you cannot hide behind invincible ignorance, that would be deliberate ignorance!
Someone may choose to disagree with the Church that it is ok to murder other folks, would you then argue that it would not be a mortal sin for that person to kill somebody because afterall, he didn’t believe it was sinful?
Someone may choose to disagree with the Church that it is ok to murder other folks, would you then argue that it would not be a mortal sin for that person to kill somebody because afterall, he didn’t believe it was sinful?
B
bear06
Guest
Hey Alan,
I think you’re getting this more than you think and I think that it’ll snowball into a more fuller understanding sooner than you think too.
T
tru_dvotion
Guest
- Status