Is it really that bad to believe that God will always forgive a sin every time

[oliver109]

Many Catholics, especially Thomists imply that Gods justice is such that one cannot expect to sin without real possibilities of eternal suffering, now God is likened to a father, most fathers have rules, have expectations but forgiveness is always present and their justice is such that they will forgive forever no matter what their child does. Some say that the threat of eternal justice motivates people to do good but i can’t really see that when take 2 contrasting societies, Nazi Germany and modern Denmark, now the former was more religious(but still a long way off the mark) and the latter has most people who have grown up in non religious homes but seems to work in a much better way, now i suppose you could say that there will be a future civilization that works really well because everyone is afraid of Hell but we have never reached that sort of civilization yet.

 

[Inbonum]

Is it really that bad to believe that God will always forgive a sin every time

The only sin that God does not forgive is one for which we do not repent and which we don’t confess in sacrament of reconciliation.

 

[Fauken]

Many Catholics, especially Thomists imply that Gods justice is such that one cannot expect to sin without real possibilities of eternal suffering, now God is likened to a father, most fathers have rules, have expectations but forgiveness is always present and their justice is such that they will forgive forever no matter what their child does.

The view of God as a loving father who forgives us of any sin is not in conflict with Thomism. God forgives us, but as @Inbonum said:

The only sin that God does not forgive is one for which we do not repent and which we don’t confess in sacrament of reconciliation.

So I’m not sure what you mean here. Either way, both Nazi Germany and modern Denmark promote abortion (although Nazi Germany only found it acceptable for “undesirable” children), both deny the existence of God, and both promote things that are against Church teaching.

 

[oliver109]

There are some sins that may be unable to be forgiven in Confession like when a person dies before they get to confession. So what you are trying to say in relation to Denmark is that they will only perfect as a society if they fear Hell or rather only the fear of Hell will stop abortion from happening?

 

[Fauken]

There are some sins that may be unable to be forgiven in Confession like when a person dies before they get to confession.

Assuming they do not make an act of perfect contrition, yes. But that would be the same as not repenting of their sins.

So what you are trying to say in relation to Denmark is that they will only perfect as a society if they fear Hell or rather only the fear of Hell will stop abortion from happening?

I’m saying you took a culture that is viewed across pretty much 99% of humanity as pure evil and contrasted it against what you presumably hold to be a morally good society (and this is not the first time you’ve held Denmark up as some model for good behavior and an ideal state), a society which widely denies that which is the source of all good and holds up something to be gravely evil as a good that must be protected. They’re being nice to their neighbor while promoting the idea that their neighbor ought to be able to kill their babies. “Niceness” does not a goodly Christian culture make. Pagans can be “nice”. We’re not called to be “nice”. We’re called to love, and love is willing the good of another. It is not loving to reject Love. It is not loving to promote abortion.

 

[oliver109]

So if only the threat of Hell can get someone to live a good life then why are people in Denmark so pleasant, so altruistic towards others and even criminals? Now you are right on abortion, the pre marital sex that is rampant in Denmark but that is down to their belief in the lack of an afterlife more than anything, if they believed in Heaven they would realize the futility of abortion and adultery. I could also use Japan as a deeply moral society that does not have a strong religious faith, Japan is a country where businessmen sleep on stations after drinking late and they don’t get robbed, it is an honest society without a fear of Hell.

 

[Fauken]

So if only the threat of Hell can get someone to live a good life then why are people in Denmark so pleasant, so altruistic towards others and even criminals?

I didn’t say that. But rejecting the existence of Hell and rejecting the existence of God is rejecting Truth. They are lies. They are not good, as “nice” as they may seem. Any society that relies on lies to be good isn’t really good at all, since their foundation is corrupt. Whatever goodness they have is from God, not the atheist viewpoint they promote.

could also use Japan as a deeply moral society

Define “moral”. I’m guessing you haven’t seen anime. Or are you saying that because of their rigid social behavioral norms?

Japan is a country where businessmen sleep on stations after drinking late and they don’t get robbed, it is an honest society without a fear of Hell.

They’re also a society where those same businessmen are driven into the ground by work and their managers, and a very rampant drinking culture. But more importantly, like I said earlier, a culture based on lies is nothing to be lauded about. Politeness does not equate to morality. It just means they’ll sound nice when they say whatever wrong thing it is they’re promoting.

 

[oliver109]

We know that Hell exists, that it is truth, what we do not know however is if Hell is needed in order to be moral, that one really needs the reality of going to Hell to motivate us to do good. Japan has social problems but every society has social problems, being Christian does not seem to make a society better does it? otherwise what countries could you use as examples of the Christian ideal?

 

[AlbMagno]

A couple of things:

-As Catholics, we know that a perfect human society doesn’t exist outside Heaven. For more about this, read about the City of God Theory by Saint Augustine. Just like in science we aim for truth, but we don’t have the truth, in politics and society we aim for Love, but we don’t have Love yet. A perfect society can only be found in perfect Union with God, when every person reaches their intended sanctity.

-All sins are lacks of love. Japan also sins. Denmark also sins. They may not be sins as of lack of love for others, but for themselves, like sexual sins, like self harm or suicide. Without God guiding the “frontier” societies, sins only morph into something else.

 

[Fauken]

if they believed in Heaven they would realize the futility of abortion and adultery.

I doubt that. I could easily see a conversation going like this:

“So why should I follow your God?”

“If you live a moral life, you’ll go to Heaven.”

“And what’s so great about Heaven?”

“You’ll worship God for all eternity and live eternally in the presence of Love Itself.”

“That same God though says my love is wrong. But it’s not wrong. I know it feels right. How can you say I’ll be with love when your God denies my love?”

“But it’s not the correct type of love. It’s a harmful love.”

“If you think my love is wrong, then I don’t want to be right. You and your God are nuts for thinking it’s bad, and I don’t want to worship some God who says my love isn’t love.”

 

[oliver109]

I have had countless discussions with atheists over the years, many don’t seem to understand just how great Heaven really is, they cannot grasp that it is better than anything we can think of on earth, i am sure if they did they would give up abortion and sleeping around much more as they would realize the futility of it.

 

[AlbMagno]

And God didn’t create Hell primarily to make humans be moral. He created it as an inevitable option for those who reject His Love, those who don’t repent. It obviously saddens God as He Loves them still, but Love cannot be forced.

 

[Fauken]

We know that Hell exists, that it is truth, what we do not know however is if Hell is needed in order to be moral, that one really needs the reality of going to Hell to motivate us to do good.

The existence of Hell is a part of the truth. If we live our lives acting like we won’t and can’t go there, we’re deluding ourselves. Some people, mostly those in despair and scrupulous I’d say, need a greater focus on Heaven. But some also need a greater focus on Hell and its reality. It can be the wakeup call they need to start getting their lives in order. But we must promote both.

being Christian does not seem to make a society better does it?

Depends, do they actually follow Christian teaching, or do they just follow it as a matter of culture? With the former, I’d say yes. With the latter, I’d say no, they’re hypocrites and lukewarm.

otherwise what countries could you use as examples of the Christian ideal?

None of them. I do not hold countries to be models of Christian ideals, even if one existed today. A country is ultimately the result of its people. People are the ones who will stand before God in judgment, not a country.

 

[oliver109]

St Thomas Aquinas basically explained the purpose of Hell as being Gods justice and that he could theoretically not condemn someone to Hell and suffer there but he does because he has the right to, his justice demands it, God could give a sinner endless chances after death to repent, infinite chances without ever making the sinner make that choice to go to Heaven or Hell.

 

[Fauken]

I have had countless discussions with atheists over the years, many don’t seem to understand just how great Heaven really is, they cannot grasp that it is better than anything we can think of on earth, i am sure if they did they would give up abortion and sleeping around much more as they would realize the futility of it.

Do they? Do they not understand it, or do they just not want it? How do you know? I know someone very well acquainted with Christian teaching and yet shows a disturbing acceptance of the idea she could be in Hell. People can know and still deny it. It is my fervent hope she doesn’t, but ultimately it’s her choice. The souls in Hell aren’t there because God hates them. They’re there because an eternity with God is pure agony to them.

 

[Inbonum]

We know that Hell exists, that it is truth, what we do not know however is if Hell is needed in order to be moral, that one really needs the reality of going to Hell to motivate us to do good.

Cathecism of Catholic Church on Hell:

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."616
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."617

1037God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P2O.HTM

 

[oliver109]

I can’t see them thinking that an eternity with God is pure agony, avoiding mortal sin can i will be honest be pure agony, but in Heaven we will be outside the body, our minds will be clearer, the wish to sin wont be there. Most sinners sin because it is agony to avoid sin, it takes a strong person to suffer for Christ.

 

[AlbMagno]

That’s another thing to consider. Not all grave sins are mortal, but you have to actually will to sin. God calls us to that strenght you speak of, yes, but he understands our Spiritual Path.

I think you are reading too much thomism. The theology of St. Thomas isn’t all dogma. It’s foundations are the official theology for priests, yes, but not all he says is the Word of God.

 

[Fauken]

I can’t see them thinking that an eternity with God is pure agony

Oh sure they do. They reject God. They reject love. They want to hold themselves up above God and love. Why would they want to spend an eternity with truth when they despise what that is?

avoiding mortal sin can i will be honest be pure agony

It can, but it is only so because they are agonies of the mind and body. The soul is immortal, the flesh is not. “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”. We are weak. But someone can delude themselves that evil is good and be pained by its loss. A morphine overdose isn’t painful, but it results in death.

Most sinners sin because it is agony to avoid sin, it takes a strong person to suffer for Christ.

I think you give sin too much credit. Strength has nothing to do with suffering for Christ. St. Therese of Lisieux never held herself up to be a strong person. St. Paul didn’t hold himself up to be a strong person. They openly acknowledged and even relished in their weakness, because that made them rely on God all the more. Relying on our own strength to defeat sin is an uphill battle. Relying on God is what is best and what is needed to resist sin and grow in virtue.

 

[oliver109]

They reject God but they don’t i hope do it with the intention to reject God forever, perhaps they just gave in to the temptation because they found it easier than not giving in. The last Pope Benedict explained that there are two types of sinners, those who harden themselves with no intention to stop sinning and dig deeper and deeper into evil and those who sin but have an intention to stop, Benedict believed that the latter type of sinner forms the majority of mankind and will eventually find forgiveness.