Is it reasonable to wager with God?

[Calliope]

So, did you go to Mass? Confession? You just walk in the door and say:

OK, God. You win. From now on it’s Your way, even if I’m not sure what that is. But the Catholic way is the clearest way I know to come to you, so: Here I am, Lord. “I believe; help my unbelief.”

Y’know what Woody Allen said – 70% of success is just showing up.

Over the years I have done the above several times. Showed up. Prayed, and yes, even very recently said the “unbelief” prayer (when I made the “wager”)

I want what I hear and read that others get from the Catholic faith, but I don’t seem to get that, even when I follow it.

Maybe I am being punished for doubt and sin, maybe I am too far gone to be reached?

 

[mercygate]

Over the years I have done the above several times. Showed up. Prayed, and yes, even very recently said the “unbelief” prayer (when I made the “wager”)

I want what I hear and read that others get from the Catholic faith, but I don’t seem to get that, even when I follow it.

Maybe I am being punished for doubt and sin, maybe I am too far gone to be reached?

First, you are NOT too “far gone” to be reached. Second: as for doubt and sin, that requires serious exploration with a good spiritual director/priest/confessor. You’re in deep here, and one-to-one counsel is called for.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

From one of the accounts of the Resurrection (John 20):

24 Thomas, called Didymus, one of the Twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger into the nailmarks and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” 26 Now a week later his disciples were again inside and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands, and bring your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believe.” 28 Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”

The words highlighted refer to you and me. Faith is most meritorious and pleasing to God when it is “blind” faith, when we believe because God is truth, not because He has “proved” it to us by some extraordinary experience.

Saint Paul, in his letter to the Romans (Romans 1:5 and 16:26), speaks of the “obedience of faith.” Sometimes the obedience comes first, and faith follows. Sometimes faith is dark, it doesn’t feel “warm and fuzzy.” When we cling to God and His commands in these circumstances, adhering to the one Church founded by Christ, we are surely pleasing to Him.

 

[jmcrae]

Over the years I have done the above several times. Showed up. Prayed, and yes, even very recently said the “unbelief” prayer (when I made the “wager”)

I want what I hear and read that others get from the Catholic faith, but I don’t seem to get that, even when I follow it.

What are you expecting to “get”?

Not everyone has “on-fire” feelings, but they come anyway. These are the people that I really admire, because they’re the ones with the real faith.

Don’t worry that you don’t get wild and crazy feelings when you come - just keep on coming, anyway. It’s the coming that counts, not the feelings. Mother Teresa went most of her life without feeling a single religious emotion (in her writings, she expresses wondering what that would feel like, if it were ever to happen to her), but that didn’t stop her from going to Mass every day, going to Confession every week, and helping every poor person she ever ran across, or who ever came to her for help.

She’s in Heaven today because she did what she was supposed to do - not because she ever felt anything.

 

[Calliope]

Thank you for all the thoughtful responses. They are helping me do some clearer thinking on this issue.

The wager was really an act of desperation, which is not a good way to handle a lifelong issue of faith and a relationship with a deity. I have some deep and long term issues with Catholicism that I need to work on.

I do expect to “get” something, for an investment of faith…not just a promise of something in an afterlife.

I guess it seems to me that if God is as the CC portrays Him to be, and all those specifics are of utmost importance…than it is not unreasonable to expect something…a sign, or solace, or something on that order, in response.

Believe it because the Church said it…end of story…when I am two millenia removed from the source, and when my faith is supposed to be based on stories other people tell of wonderful things they’ve experienced, but then I am told I should neither expect or even seek such experiences for myself…leaves me scratching my head.

I’m not sure why I should believe in the stories of the Catholic Church, rather than any other faith…and just accept that they are true, but not seek some “proof”…even if the only proof I seek is a sense of the presence of God.

I have lived as a Catholic, and not as a Catholic, and I haven’t experienced any difference. I was told if I ever left the church, I would be sorry, things would be so awful, etc, but they are just the same (granted, they were pretty bad when I was in the church). So, I find it hard to believe many of the things the church claims.

People tell me there are all these wonderful things waiting for me in the faith, but they don’t materialize, and then, when I question that, I am told that I shouldn’t question, that I just need to believe, and that my faith is better when I believe with no reason…

Does the Church itself make any claims or promises about a life lived in faith? or are those things just cultural, just common people sharing their own faith stories? I mean, when people say they pray and their prayers are answered, or that they feel the presence of God, etc…is that all just personal revelation?

I know I feel that I have been led to expect things that never came to be, but those things might not be part of the official teachings of the church, they may just be things I was led to expect by lay people based on their own experience.

Calliope

 

[mercygate]

Calliope, have you read any of the recent stuff in the press about Mother Theresa’s lack of religious consolation throughout most of her life? Granted, she DID receive a strong personal communication of grace at one point, but after she left her Religious community to found the Missionaries of Charity, she experienced NOTHING and even lived in a state of “doubt” for more than 50 years.

This can be a cross custom-tailored to the bearer.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi
if you really want a sign then just say, Lord if you exist and if the CC is the true church then please give me a sign. No wagers. You cannot tempt God by saying you’ll go to Mass etc. This is probably voiding your prayer. You may find it hard to accept the sign. God will make the sign clearly to you. Simply ask for any sign. It’s a miracle of grace when the sinner goes to confession. You can experience that miracle. And we’re all sinners.

 

[jmcrae]

Does the Church itself make any claims or promises about a life lived in faith? or are those things just cultural, just common people sharing their own faith stories? I mean, when people say they pray and their prayers are answered, or that they feel the presence of God, etc…is that all just personal revelation?

I know I feel that I have been led to expect things that never came to be, but those things might not be part of the official teachings of the church, they may just be things I was led to expect by lay people based on their own experience.

Calliope

Yes, these are just personal experiences. There is no promise in the Church that suddenly fireworks will go off, or all your problems will be solved, or anything like that. You are right, life outside the Church is much like life inside it - the only thing lacking is faith.

I am reminded of a story.

A little boy, playing with his sister, locked her up in a barn and left her there. When asked where she was, he lied and said he didn’t know. Later, after the little girl was found, his mother asked him, “Why did you do that?” He said, “Because I thought something bad would happen, and I thought it would be exciting. Instead, it was just boring and awful - I’m sorry I did it, but I’m sorrier that nothing bad happened.”

His mother said, “Something bad did happen.” He said, “What, that I got caught, and I had to go to bed without supper?” She said “No. That you locked up your sister, and then you lied. That was the bad thing that happened.”

The little boy said, “So, bad things aren’t exciting and fun?” “No,” said his mother, “Bad things are just bad.”

The inverse is also true. Goodness is not always exciting, either. It’s just good.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

I do expect to “get” something, for an investment of faith…not just a promise of something in an afterlife.

I guess it seems to me that if God is as the CC portrays Him to be, and all those specifics are of utmost importance…than it is not unreasonable to expect something…a sign, or solace, or something on that order, in response.

Believe it because the Church said it…end of story…when I am two millenia removed from the source, and when my faith is supposed to be based on stories other people tell of wonderful things they’ve experienced, but then I am told I should neither expect or even seek such experiences for myself…leaves me scratching my head.

I’m not sure why I should believe in the stories of the Catholic Church, rather than any other faith…and just accept that they are true, but not seek some “proof”…even if the only proof I seek is a sense of the presence of God.

It sounds like you are trying to tell God how to do His job!

Read the Book of Job usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm in the Old Testament. It is about a man who remained faithful to God, despite the horrible things that happened to him (God permitted Satan to afflict poor Job in some pretty serious ways). Then Job begins to question God as to why He has permitted Job to suffer.

When you get to Chapter 38 (and following chapters), God answers not by giving His reasons for permitting suffering, but by reminding Job that God is God and doesn’t have to justify His actions to us. Job ends up accepting this and repenting of questioning God’s ways.

Bottom line is, God knows what is best for us, better than we know it ourselves. If He in His infinite wisdom thinks we need extraordinary experiences, He will give them to us. If He knows that it will ultimately be better for us to do without, then He will let us do without.

When you wrote:

I do expect to “get” something, for an investment of faith…not just a promise of something in an afterlife.

I want to remind you that “just a promise of something in an afterlife” is more important than anything that happens to us in this life. If and when we get to heaven (and we improve our chances by being obedient and faithful, no matter what!), we will realize that our life on this earth was just a fleeting moment, and that looking for “warm fuzzies” on earth was not even worth the trouble.

 

[Calliope]

It sounds like you are trying to tell God how to do His job!

Read the Book of Job usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm in the Old Testament. It is about a man who remained faithful to God, despite the horrible things that happened to him (God permitted Satan to afflict poor Job in some pretty serious ways). Then Job begins to question God as to why He has permitted Job to suffer.

When you get to Chapter 38 (and following chapters), God answers not by giving His reasons for permitting suffering, but by reminding Job that God is God and doesn’t have to justify His actions to us. Job ends up accepting this and repenting of questioning God’s ways.

Bottom line is, God knows what is best for us, better than we know it ourselves. If He in His infinite wisdom thinks we need extraordinary experiences, He will give them to us. If He knows that it will ultimately be better for us to do without, then He will let us do without.

When you wrote:

I do expect to “get” something, for an investment of faith…not just a promise of something in an afterlife.

I want to remind you that “just a promise of something in an afterlife” is more important than anything that happens to us in this life. If and when we get to heaven (and we improve our chances by being obedient and faithful, no matter what!), we will realize that our life on this earth was just a fleeting moment, and that looking for “warm fuzzies” on earth was not even worth the trouble.

I guess what it boils down to, is that I wonder if the God that many Catholics speak of, is the real God.

I want to know if God lives up to the hype that His people have laid out. I hear stories of what God is like, how He interacts with His people, and then…I don’t see it in my life. I don’t feel like I am trying to tell God how to act, I am asking God if He is what His people claim He is. If He isn’t, and does not operate the way they say, that is fine. God doesn’t have to serve me, but I want to know what the real deal is.

I’ve never had an easy life, and I don’t expect it to become easy if I choose the right faith, but is it fair to expect God to be what His people claim He is?

 

[Calliope]

Yes, these are just personal experiences. There is no promise in the Church that suddenly fireworks will go off, or all your problems will be solved, or anything like that. You are right, life outside the Church is much like life inside it - the only thing lacking is faith.

I am reminded of a story.

A little boy, playing with his sister, locked her up in a barn and left her there. When asked where she was, he lied and said he didn’t know. Later, after the little girl was found, his mother asked him, “Why did you do that?” He said, “Because I thought something bad would happen, and I thought it would be exciting. Instead, it was just boring and awful - I’m sorry I did it, but I’m sorrier that nothing bad happened.”

His mother said, “Something bad did happen.” He said, “What, that I got caught, and I had to go to bed without supper?” She said “No. That you locked up your sister, and then you lied. That was the bad thing that happened.”

The little boy said, “So, bad things aren’t exciting and fun?” “No,” said his mother, “Bad things are just bad.”

The inverse is also true. Goodness is not always exciting, either. It’s just good.

this makes a lot of sense to me.

question though, does faith impact this life too? or only the next?

it seems that many people are suggesting that I am asking for too much, or the wrong thing to expect faith to have an effect on my present life, that the whole point is the afterlife. Is that the case?

 

[Calliope]

Hi
if you really want a sign then just say, Lord if you exist and if the CC is the true church then please give me a sign. No wagers. You cannot tempt God by saying you’ll go to Mass etc. This is probably voiding your prayer. You may find it hard to accept the sign. God will make the sign clearly to you. Simply ask for any sign. It’s a miracle of grace when the sinner goes to confession. You can experience that miracle. And we’re all sinners.

Thank you, maybe that is the situation, though I don’t know why God would let my promise keep Him from giving me a sign or reaching out to me when I am searching, open and willing. But the reason I am here is that I clearly do NOT understand how God operates and am seeking the advice of those who know Him better.

I have asked for a sign before, without stipulating what I would do in response, and nothing happened, so I added that this last time.

I am familiar with Catholicism, so it seems like the most reasonable faith for me to go to, if I begin to practice a faith, but maybe I am asking God the wrong question.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It is fine to ask God to show Himself to you. You should not make it part of a bargain.

Wisdom 1:2 Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him.

Just ask Him for help, that you are unsure of things. He will be happy to show you things.

 

[Calliope]

It is fine to ask God to show Himself to you. You should not make it part of a bargain.

Wisdom 1:2 Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him.

Just ask Him for help, that you are unsure of things. He will be happy to show you things.

thank you! In that case, I think I have gotten my answer.

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you, maybe that is the situation, though I don’t know why God would let my promise keep Him from giving me a sign or reaching out to me when I am searching, open and willing. But the reason I am here is that I clearly do NOT understand how God operates and am seeking the advice of those who know Him better.

I have asked for a sign before, without stipulating what I would do in response, and nothing happened, so I added that this last time.

I am familiar with Catholicism, so it seems like the most reasonable faith for me to go to, if I begin to practice a faith, but maybe I am asking God the wrong question.

Faith changes you. It changes your motivations and your point of view.

For example, if you see everyone as an avatar of Christ, as Mother Teresa did (meaning that everything you do to that person, you do for Christ), then your behaviour toward others will be quite a bit different than if you view others according to their potential ability to help you advance in your career or in your social life (as a materialist would). Also, if you believe that God created the world good, then your response to your environment will be different than that of someone who sees the world as being hostile or indifferent.

 

[hasikelee]

I think it depends on exactly what you mean by wager.

Saying what you said to God could be a cop out, or it could be a sign that you are saying “I’m willing to do whatever it takes, just show me where to go/how to do it.”

I’ve found myself saying similar things and I didn’t consider it a wager. More like, “okay God, if this is what you want me to do, you better show me the way or make it obvious because my little brain is NOT seeing it.” lol

And this is all personal hearsay, but those few times I’ve wholeheartedly said such a thing, there has been a huge response that I do not consider coincidence.

If you want to wager with God, you’re going to lose the bet…although that will probably be a good thing for you anyways.

 

[Calliope]

I think it depends on exactly what you mean by wager.

Saying what you said to God could be a cop out, or it could be a sign that you are saying “I’m willing to do whatever it takes, just show me where to go/how to do it.”

I’ve found myself saying similar things and I didn’t consider it a wager. More like, “okay God, if this is what you want me to do, you better show me the way or make it obvious because my little brain is NOT seeing it.” lol

And this is all personal hearsay, but those few times I’ve wholeheartedly said such a thing, there has been a huge response that I do not consider coincidence.

If you want to wager with God, you’re going to lose the bet…although that will probably be a good thing for you anyways.

I meant it like you said…if you want me, I’m here, I’m open, give me a sign…not like a bet, not like 'bet you can’t or won’t" give me a sign, I hoped I’d get one, still, I realize that many consider that as putting God on the spot.

I have always accepted that God, whatever and however it manifests itself, is in control, and is capable of letting me know exactly where and how it wants me. I just thought I’d throw the Catholicism thing in there to be sure.

as I said, I think I have gotten my answer, and I thank everyone for their helpful and thoughtful (name removed by moderator)ut. I will keep thinking on all that has been shared with me.

 

[puzzleannie]

probably not, I still have not won the lottery, in spite of all the promises I have made about the good I would do with the money.

 

[jmcrae]

probably not, I still have not won the lottery, in spite of all the promises I have made about the good I would do with the money.

Yes, same here.

I tell myself it’s because God thinks my priest would be irresponsible with the tithe money …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Thank you, maybe that is the situation, though I don’t know why God would let my promise keep Him from giving me a sign or reaching out to me when I am searching, open and willing. But the reason I am here is that I clearly do NOT understand how God operates and am seeking the advice of those who know Him better.

I have asked for a sign before, without stipulating what I would do in response, and nothing happened, so I added that this last time.

I am familiar with Catholicism, so it seems like the most reasonable faith for me to go to, if I begin to practice a faith, but maybe I am asking God the wrong question.

Hi
I’ve asked God for signs on a hundred occasions. I always got them when I did it my suggested way. Maybe God figures you don’t need a sign right now for some unknown reason. With God he is eternal and time does not mean as much to him as it does to us. There is no time in heaven. No prayer goes unanswered. God may answer your prayer in the months or years to come. i heard of one person who had a prayer answered in 50 yrs time. When Jesus walked the earth he always asked people to make an act of faith before he would perform any miracles. And if he pereived there was no faith he would not perform any miracles. Just ask God for faith, and remember God does things at the right time and not when we think it’s the right time.
If you want to see miracles look up the eucharistic miracles like the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano and the incorruptible saints - there are about 400 of them. search on the web. I’ll help you find them if you PM me.