Is it religion, or relationship, or both?

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AgnosTheist said:
Historically speaking, Jesus did not found a new religion. Jesus did not introduce a system. His followers did that, not him.

again if you put it that way you can even say that he created an invisible pink unicorn.
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I did not say Jesus founded a new religion, please do not gloss over my answer and make it sound as if I said something else. Are you a politician?

Jesus introduced a system of the mass, and how to prepare it and told his disciples to “do this in remembrance of me”

jesus introduced baptism in John 3 and then went with them to where the water was plentiful at Aenon while they baptized.

jesus introduced confession in John 20:21-23 and we see Paul utilize it and also the priest in James 5 where their sins are forgiven for the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, only the priest prayed in that passage.

Jesus introduced extreme unction as also seen in James 5:14

jesus introduced Holy orders by giving His own mission to His apostles post resurrection and breathed on them(only the second time God breathed on man) and gave them the power to forgive sins and gave them power to bind on earth as in heaven. he also gave them power to lay hands and ordain others.

the list goes on and on.

what Bible are you reading?
 
justinthemartyr said:
I did not say Jesus founded a new religion, please do not gloss over my answer and make it sound as if I said something else. Are you a politician?
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so what did you vote for? 🤷
justinthemartyr said:
Jesus introduced a system of the mass, and how to prepare it and told his disciples to “do this in remembrance of me”
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“System” means an organized set of ideas. The last supper simply doesnt qualify as such.
justinthemartyr said:
jesus introduced baptism in John 3 and then went with them to where the water was plentiful at Aenon while they baptized.
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he got that idea from the John the baptist
justinthemartyr said:
jesus introduced confession in John 20:21-23 and we see Paul utilize it and also the priest in James 5 where their sins are forgiven for the prayer of a righteous man availeth much, only the priest prayed in that passage.
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confession is nothing new. whats new is the idea to confess to priests. and thats not from jesus.
justinthemartyr said:
Jesus introduced extreme unction as also seen in James 5:14
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james is not jesus
justinthemartyr said:
jesus introduced Holy orders by giving His own mission to His apostles post resurrection and breathed on them(only the second time God breathed on man) and gave them the power to forgive sins and gave them power to bind on earth as in heaven. he also gave them power to lay hands and ordain others.
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various prophets had new powers too, but judaism remains the same.
 
AgnosTheist said:
so what did you vote for? 🤷

“System” means an organized set of ideas. The last supper simply doesnt qualify as such.

he got that idea from the John the baptist

confession is nothing new. whats new is the idea to confess to priests. and thats not from jesus.

james is not jesus

various prophets had new powers too, but judaism remains the same.
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FALSE!

the last supper and then jesus’ teaching in John 6 and what Paul stated concerning the euchariost in corinthians makes it clear.

Even the first century christians in the didache outline the entire mass.

you have no evidence otherwise, you are speaking with your own human mind and not that of the Spirit. EVERY single age of the church prior to protestant thinking in the 16th century shows the mass as what it was in the very first century and from scripture itself. Your words are empty, wishful thinking at best. you have NOTHING to support you claim agnotheist, ZERO.
 
“he who hears you, hears me”

this sentence stated by jesus to his apostles, covers my point entirely. jesus speaks through His Church leaders.

something you do not have, for the power of God and the Voice of Christ is spoken in fullness, through the only Church He instituted upon kephas(rock).

I wash my hands of you Agnotheist.
 
justinthemartyr said:
FALSE!

the last supper and then jesus’ teaching in John 6 and what Paul stated concerning the euchariost in corinthians makes it clear.

Even the first century christians in the didache outline the entire mass.

you have no evidence otherwise, you are speaking with your own human mind and not that of the Spirit. EVERY single age of the church prior to protestant thinking in the 16th century shows the mass as what it was in the very first century and from scripture itself. Your words are empty, wishful thinking at best. you have NOTHING to support you claim agnotheist, ZERO.
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There is nothing “organized” with the idea of eating bread & wine in rememberance of Jesus.

Sorry, it wasnt Jesus who created the system. It was the followers.
 
I hate this false dichotomy between religion and relationship with God.

Such a false dichotomy has been used by secularists to basically bash the Christian faith.

You see, those Christians who say that Christianity is only a relationship and not a religion, then bash religion with all kinds of arguments based on the shifting sand of this false dichotomy. Secularists then take those exact arguments and bash Christians over the head with them!

In other words, this false dichotomy is a weapon used against Christianity!

Jesus Christ said the Church is his Bride and that He is the Bridegroom. I’m married and I know there are rules and regulations in my marriage. Obvious ones: No spousal abuse. No adultery. Do these rules mean I don’t have a relationship with my wife? Of course not. The relationship has rules!

Same thing with God. He made the rules, and we don’t have the authority to overrule him on that.
 
We are drawn to the Father, through Christ, in the Holy Spirit. This is the relationship. However it is a relationship between the Church and the Father and is always a communal relationship before it is individual. The fullest expression of this relationship is the Mass where we are drawn together into one body by the Holy Spirit. Where we seek the Father by blessing Him and praying for the coming of His kingdom. Where we, through the sacrament, go to the foot of the Cross ourselves. Where we eat and drink of the new world to come by partaking of the Flesh and Blood of the risen Christ.

A religion to me implies that man does not know God, that he needs to make burnt offerings and sacrifice animals and that he must have an elect ‘priestly class’ to intercede for him. Christianity is none of these things. Catholicism is none of these things. Christianity is a relationship with God, a relationship which is enabled by a timeless sacrifice that we constantly partake in. Christianity is coming close to the Father and being made part of his Kingdom, the new world; the drawing of creation into new creation and the movement of the world toward eternal perfection within God.

It is not a religion as religion was understood before Christianity. If it is called a religion now it is because the meaning of the word has changed. It is a relationship with God, however it is a communal relationship not an individual one. We are the bride to the bridegroom, not the brides.
 
Yes agnos, please explain the exact same reason philosophy to us. Educate us, we pray.
 
justinthemartyr said:
Yes agnos, please explain the exact same reason philosophy to us. Educate us, we pray.
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Since no explanation is forthcoming, perhaps he wishes us to believe him on blind faith?

His account is under review, looks like he is “dying” for what he believes.
 
Christianity is a religion, a relationship, a sacrifice, and more. It is not an either/or. No one term can exhaust what Christianity is.

By the way, the RSV translation uses the term religion in 1 Tim. 3:16:

Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.​

God bless,

Rony
 
AgnosTheist said:
the exact same reason why followers died for mohammad. or for any cult leader.

is it still a wonder?
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Not even close. Look at the first 200 years after the death of their founders death and tell me the Catholic foundation is not the polar opposite of the Muslim faith. Look at the two individuals. They are as far apart in character as the east is from the west. This points the way to which seems more valid by reason alone if either were to be true. The one less true can/should be rejected.

So what if the Apostles created the institution of the Church and not Christ in the manner you intone? Why is that significant to the point of exclusion that Peter would establish a re-enactment of the Last Supper when celebrating Mass. Christ clearly identified a Substitution for Him to be physically present in the Eucharist. He did not tell us how to treat it with respect and reverence, so we established it. It had to begin somewhere and most people accept it is practiced now pretty close to now to how it was then and mostly because the crowds are larger and is no longer persecuted. What is the big deal?

The Gospels do not mention Paul, and Acts with his Letters show the other Apostles accepted Paul before his death in Rome maybe after St. Peter but around the same time which is before the destruction of Jerusalem. This is basic logic. You may disagree with its significance but you don’t have cause to mock it. Particularly if you don’t understand it.

Some things are human nature and one thing might be the need to create ritual for various reasons. It is no different than political parties holding votes on a particular day or in a particular manner but soon become tradition. It’s natural to adopt our/any new belief to common realities such as celestial events and to share similiarity stories from previous cultures that did the same.

There is a lot or reason to believe the Gospels are true in this case, and St. Paul is one of those reasons because he is not mentioned in them. He wrote about his experiences and how it was with regard to the belief in the Risen Christ to the communities/churches he founded in Christs name. Teaching them a ritual in how to honor their new faith and be in the real prescence of the Lord. No swords required.
 
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