Is it right or wrong to provide prenatal care for illegal immigrants?

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy, I totally disagree with you. Totally.

I do agree that we are obligated to take care of people in need.

I disagree that people can morally put themselves in need when they have a choice. It doesn’t matter how much people contribute to anything. That’s an “ends justify the means” argument.

We all have an obligation to not create situations where other people take care of us. For some, that might be not crossing a border illegally for taxpayer-paid childbirth and birthright citizenship; for others it could be creating a situation where you are on welfare or food stamps or aid to dependent children. For others it might be not spending all your income every month so that you have no cushion.

It’s one thing to say, “Let’s have one more child. We can get rid of cable and tighten things up”, and quite another to say, “Let’s have another. There’s Medicaid, food stamps, more welfare, food pantries that will help us”.

We have an obligation to not create situations where other people “take care” of us, not even expecting to be included in basic health care if we are doing every bit of work that is within our grasp to do? Where on earth did you get that? Can we really talk about whether or not a poor woman is going to get prenatal care and worries about our cable bill as if it is just beyond our means to help her? It is not as if basic health care is within the means of anyone with meaningful work. Many people in this country work hard and still have to fear a serious injury, an illness, and yes, a pregnancy. We would expect the working poor to hold off on having children so that we can afford cable TV? We in this country live in luxury unknown to previous ages, wealth so great that we ought to fear mistreatment of anyone who works for our benefit for a wage.

Come now, you rich, weep and wail over your impending miseries. Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver have corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire. You have stored up treasure for the last days. Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and* the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts**. You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter. You have condemned; you have murdered the righteous one; he offers you no resistance*. James 5:1-6

People are out in the fields breaking their backs to put cheap food on our tables. Before heaven, we had better see to it that they are treated with humanity, or we will have heaven to answer to.

**Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ **Matt. 25:41-43

 

[PaulinVA]

We have an obligation to not create situations where other people “take care” of us, not even expecting to be included in basic health care if we are doing every bit of work that is within our grasp to do? Where on earth did you get that? Can we really talk about whether or not a poor woman is going to get prenatal care and worries about our cable bill as if it is just beyond our means to help her? It is not as if basic health care is within the means of anyone with meaningful work. Many people in this country work hard and still have to fear a serious injury, an illness, and yes, a pregnancy. We would expect the working poor to hold off on having children so that we can afford cable TV? We in this country live in luxury unknown to previous ages, wealth so great that we ought to fear mistreatment of anyone who works for our benefit for a wage.

I have to believe that you are not maliciously twisting my words to make your point, and you simply are not understanding what I am saying.

My discussion is not about us. I have acknowledged that we have an obligation to take care of those less fortunate than us. I was using the cable as an example of the sacrifices people make when they want to be self-sufficient and tighten their belts. It had nothing to do with protecting my lifestyle at the expense of others. Your italicized indignation is misplaced.

People are out in the fields breaking their backs to put cheap food on our tables. Before heaven, we had better see to it that they are treated with humanity, or we will have heaven to answer to.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Matt. 25:41-43

Once again, this is not about us, it is about the people who rely on public assistance and what their obligations are. All I can infer from your posts is that you believe that people who depend on the largess of others have no obligation to moderate their behavior, and they should just grab for every assistance that they can and never strive to be self-sufficient. I disagree with this.

 

[pnewton]

We are no less duty-bound to vote according to our values than are those who vote to let the devil take the hindmost.

An interesting thought. It seems to me that voting to help others is more in line with our faith than voting for the one who will help us get more and more stuff. Too many vote their pocket books. It is why no one gets elected on the promise of more taxes. Now I do not approve of many programs aimed at the poor, as I think the aim is amissed and end up hurting more than they help, but our heart ought be more for the poor than oureselves.

 

[EasterJoy]

An interesting thought. It seems to me that voting to help others is more in line with our faith than voting for the one who will help us get more and more stuff. Too many vote their pocket books. It is why no one gets elected on the promise of more taxes. Now I do not approve of many programs aimed at the poor, as I think the aim is amissed and end up hurting more than they help, but our heart ought be more for the poor than oureselves.

Yes, on two counts: We cannot simply vote for more money for the poor and think we’ve done our duty. We have a duty to make sure that any public funds spent on the poor will really be used in responsible ways that will help them and that the level of taxes won’t put anyone into a position of dependency who could have seen to their own needs, if the government didn’t take so much.

Second, our legitimate right to have personal possessions is indeed legitimate, but we cannot let it get in the way of putting care for the poor into the social contract that we all have to pay for. If we’d get our noses bent out of shape because the government isn’t paying for something that will ease our own lives, what defense will we have if the legitimate needs of the poor are ignored? But yes, that isn’t just a matter of throwing money at people without money. That is simple-minded, won’t work, and can even make matters far worse. Not everyone who opposes certain programs intended for the poor is selfish or a “defender of the rich” or that nonsense.

 

[EasterJoy]

Once again, this is not about us, it is about the people who rely on public assistance and what their obligations are. All I can infer from your posts is that you believe that people who depend on the largess of others have no obligation to moderate their behavior, and they should just grab for every assistance that they can and never strive to be self-sufficient. I disagree with this.

I misunderstood because my first post said very clearly I was talking about what was the decision of parents and what is ours. I also said very clearly that we have a duty to make sure that those who receive assistance also help themselves to the best of their ability, in order to protect their dignity and self-responsibility. Even if it were easier for us, we can’t just throw money at them and tempt them to abdicate their just responsibility for themselves and those in their care. That is why I’m totally missing your point, I guess…you are arguing against something I didn’t post. (I also don’t believe that there are many immigrant women who come here illegally expecting anything other than a lot of hard work.)

Besides, we can’t know whether a poor woman who is pregnant is responsible at all for her “condition”. Even a married woman cannot use NFP on her own. It has to be a joint decision. It’s not something she can force onto her husband. We can’t know if she could have kept from starving to death, if she had not come here illegally, or who she’d have had to watch starve instead of making what is often a very dangerous trip to get here. Even if she were morally culpable for her condition–say, she is pregnant through adultery and immigrated to Nebraska on a whim because her home country bored her (as if that is anything like a frequent case)–in our age she is at least morally praiseworthy for not killing the child before it is born in order to not let her child be a burden on her!

 

[PaulinVA]

Easter Joy, peace. We are probably much more in sync than not.

By the way, the “poor” are not just illegal immigrants.

 

[EasterJoy]

Easter Joy, peace. We are probably much more in sync than not.

By the way, the “poor” are not just illegal immigrants.

Yes, this did kind of get off the track of the thread, which is health care for residents who are not in Nebraska legally. I don’t think many people immigrate illegally with the idea that they’re going to get onto the public dole, instead of with the idea that they’re going to have to work very hard at jobs that people with an education they can document do not want to do. That’s why I think this is much more about people in low wage work than about people who won’t work. There are few if any people in those low-paying lines of work who can afford prenatal care without any outside assistance. Whether they are legal or illegal, these pregnant women and their unborn babies ought to be cared for.

 

[triumphguy]

$1 in prenatal care probably adds up to thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollar in healthcare savings down the road.

• Save money - care for the unborn.

Ditto education:

• If you think education is expensive try ignorance.

These “illegal” immigrants might just save America’s hiney in the future. You-all ain’t breeding enough to keep your population growing. Declining population = economic death. And you may as well educate them because an educated workforce is a productive workforce.

BTW - how many Irish/Polish/Italian/Ukrainian immigrants could read when they came to Ellis Island?

I have a great uncle who stowed away on a ship from Liverpool and entered the USA illegally right before WW1. He also lied about being English and changed his name and pretended to be Irish in order to get jobs - he now has about 90 grandchildren and great grandchildren - all very productive (taxpaying) citizens of your great country. I’m sure a bunch of you Americans have similar stories about your ancestors.

Besides the Catholic Church recognizes the rights of migrants - probably because our own Lord and Saviour and His Blessed Mother were economic migrants, and His Mother said “Yes” rather than “No” to getting pregnant while unmarried…

Go figure…

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Once again, this is not about us, it is about the people who rely on public assistance and what their obligations are. All I can infer from your posts is that you believe that people who depend on the largess of others have no obligation to moderate their behavior, and they should just grab for every assistance that they can and never strive to be self-sufficient. I disagree with this.

Actually that is not what this is about. This is about providing prenatal care for the benefit of an unborn child that had no say in whether or not their parents made the proper financial decisions prior to conceiving said child.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

$1 in prenatal care probably adds up to thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollar in healthcare savings down the road.

• Save money - care for the unborn.

Ditto education:

• If you think education is expensive try ignorance.

These “illegal” immigrants might just save America’s hiney in the future. You-all ain’t breeding enough to keep your population growing. Declining population = economic death. And you may as well educate them because an educated workforce is a productive workforce.

BTW - how many Irish/Polish/Italian/Ukrainian immigrants could read when they came to Ellis Island?

I have a great uncle who stowed away on a ship from Liverpool and entered the USA illegally right before WW1. He also lied about being English and changed his name and pretended to be Irish in order to get jobs - he now has about 90 grandchildren and great grandchildren - all very productive (taxpaying) citizens of your great country. I’m sure a bunch of you Americans have similar stories about your ancestors.

Besides the Catholic Church recognizes the rights of migrants - probably because our own Lord and Saviour and His Blessed Mother were economic migrants, and His Mother said “Yes” rather than “No” to getting pregnant while unmarried…

Go figure…

 

[PaulfromIowa]

This.

This