Is it Saturday or Sunday?

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Antoinette_W

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Our Church only has a 5 pm mass on Saturday, isn’t that too early to count as a Sunday Mass?
Saturday evening mass can count as a Sunday mass only if the sun has gone down. Because in the Hebrew calendar the new day begins after sunset (or lasts from sunset to sunset.) the sun never sets here at 5 pm even in winter!

It always used to be at 7 pm or 8 pm. which was good.
Should I talk to our priest? Or our Bishop? Or is there a new law now?
 
In the Byzantine Tradition, the liturgical day starts with Vespers (not Lauds or Matins). We have 4 p.m. Divine Liturgy and it fulfills one’s Sunday obligation.

Btw, where do you live if the sun never sets?
 
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Antoinette_W said:
Our Church only has a 5 pm mass on Saturday, isn’t that too early to count as a Sunday Mass?
Saturday evening mass can count as a Sunday mass only if the sun has gone down. Because in the Hebrew calendar the new day begins after sunset (or lasts from sunset to sunset.) the sun never sets here at 5 pm even in winter!

It always used to be at 7 pm or 8 pm. which was good.
Should I talk to our priest? Or our Bishop? Or is there a new law now?
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Anything after 4:00 pm on Saturday generally counts. Curiously enough, it does not absolutely have to be the liturgy specifically for the Sunday Mass. The mere fact that you attend Mass is sufficient.

The Hebrew calendar has absolutely nothing to do with it.

As a general rule I don’t like to go to Mass on Saturday evening — no doctrinal reason, just a personal preference — but I will if I’m in a pinch. I can’t remember the last time I did it. My son, age 12, cannot fathom how a Saturday Mass can count for Sunday. I never taught him that, he just came up with it on his own.
 
I was curious to that if technically the Vigil Mass tonight could be for the Solemnity of Ss Peter and Paul ( I assume my church will be for Sunday), however Vespers tonight is still for the Solemnity and not First Vespers for Sunday and I always thought the Mass should he parallel to the celebration of Vespers?
 
4 pm is the standard in the US. I’m 36 and I can’t remember it’s ever being later. In some parts of the world there is debate about Masses as early as 2 pm, or even 12 noon, as counting for the obligation. I’m not sure what the rationale is for Mass that early, but I imagine it probably has to do with a quasi-literal reading of Genesis, where the day is divided into morning and evening.
 
The Church says only that we can satisfy our obligation to attend Mass on Sunday by attending Mass on Saturday “evening”.

In the 1953 document that gave permission for Mass to be celebrated in “the evening” the document also specified that said evening Mass couldn’t start before 4 p.m. It didn’t say after nightfall, or after dark, just after 4 p.m. Based on that document many dioceses set 4 p.m. as the earliest time for Saturday evening Masses.

It must be noted that there is disagreement on this, with some jurisdictions saying that any time after noon is OK. Personally I think it’s quite the stretch to consider 1 or 2 p.m. “evening”.
 
Fuerza said:
4 pm is the standard in the US. I’m 36 and I can’t remember it’s ever being later. In some parts of the world there is debate about Masses as early as 2 pm, or even 12 noon, as counting for the obligation. I’m not sure what the rationale is for Mass that early, but I imagine it probably has to do with a quasi-literal reading of Genesis, where the day is divided into morning and evening.
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I think I’m right in saying that the Church can make “fulfilling the Sunday obligation” anything it wants to — the whole “binding and loosing” thing, you know. Byzantine Catholics are often allowed to attend a typica service (basically a liturgy of the word and communion of the presanctified) where there is no priest to celebrate Divine Liturgy, instead of having to go to a Latin Rite Mass. I have even wondered if the Church, in extreme circumstances, could allow a Mass on Monday to “count”, for instance, in a mission territory where the priest is spread so thin that he can’t cover all of the parishes on Saturday and Sunday.
 
Some interesting thoughts, I have a feeling your right though.🤔👍
 
Are you a priest? That would help! (according to your picture) 👍
 
Thanks, that is a really good and informed answer! 😊👍👍👍
I’ll go with that!
 
@Antoinette_W
The information others have provided is correct. There’s nothing to do with Hebrew laws or calendars here. It’s about the Church’s law permitting Sunday/Holy Day obligations to be met “the evening before”. Any Mass will do, no matter the prayers and readings, and anytime is ok so long as the bishops have defined it as evening. That’s generally 4pm worldwide with a few exceptions for earlier, but I’m not aware of any more strict than that.

It’s connected to (although not perfectly) the fact that in the Liturgy of the Hours, Vespers is given precedence for solemnities over the prior evening (so Saturday never gets Vespers or Compline and Sunday always gets two of each).
 
Antoinette_W said:
Our Church only has a 5 pm mass on Saturday, isn’t that too early to count as a Sunday Mass?
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No. It isn’t.
Antoinette_W said:
Saturday evening mass can count as a Sunday mass only if the sun has gone down.
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This is not correct.

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

The Church’s law uses the word “Vespere” for the start time of the evening mass in the Latin. Vespers. Which is basically 4 p.m. And Pius XII’s Christos Dominus sets the earliest time at 4 p.m.
Antoinette_W said:
Because in the Hebrew calendar the new day begins after sunset (or lasts from sunset to sunset.) the sun never sets here at 5 pm even in winter!
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The Church’s allowance of Saturday evening Mass to fulfill the Sunday obligation has nothing at all to do with the Jewish reckoning of days.
Antoinette_W said:
Should I talk to our priest? Or our Bishop?
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No.
 
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It is interesting; I asked a local priest from a South American country why there aren’t more Masses in Spanish on Saturday night (here in Oregon). He said Vigil Masses aren’t a “thing” in Spanish-speaking countries except as a way for those who actually have to work on Sunday morning to meet their Sunday obligation. Even then, a Sunday evening Mass tends to be much preferred. There is a low demand for Spanish-language Vigil Masses on Saturday night.

In contrast, I know many parishes at which the Vigil Mass in English has such a regular following that many parishioners go to that Mass almost exclusively. They’re almost never at a Mass on Sunday.

I can see why it is more practical to offer Vigil Masses on Saturday than Sunday evening Masses–a priest ought to limit the number of Masses he says on a calendar day, when possible. Still, it is interesting that so many people prefer to go Saturday night even when they have the choice.
 
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Phemie said:
It must be noted that there is disagreement on this, with some jurisdictions saying that any time after noon is OK.
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The first time I visited Las Vegas (before I moved here), before the shrine was built at the. southern end of the strip, the. Cathedral (which is on the strip) had mass in the church on the hour and in the hall on the half hour. They still couldn’t handle the volume, sos the yellow pages ad noted that they had a 2:30 p.m. on Saturday that “fulfills Sunday obligation for tourists only.”

(and then the bishop had to hit the county commission over the head with candlesticks over zoning . . . you can’t build a casino within a fixed distance of a church, and an expansion [the Luxor?] was too close to the Shrine . . . "We built it for tourists! {you morons!} . . . ultimately, they accepted his. waiver.)

hawk
 
No Compline on Saturday? The retreat house I used to attend always had Compline.

Salva nos, Domine, vigilantes et custodia nos dormientes, ut vigilemus Christo, et requiescamus in pace.
 
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