Is it sinful to assume that your salvation is “guaranteed”?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Milliardo:

Read my post again, sandusky. John supports OSAS? Funny you can come up with that. Like I said, OSAS becomes problematic once you come go to the loopy logic that accompanies it. We take what you said now and thus come up with this problem (again, it helps to reread): if you say that you will commit sin still, then what does that make of OSAS, sandusky? Is that still OSAS? How can you say you’re saved if you will still commit sin? See, that’s where the whole problem comes in. Now you’ll say that for as long as we hold fast to Christ, we won’t sin. That’s not OSAS anymore, since there’s a condition that comes in (as long as one holds on to Christ).

Indeed it isn’t; for in OSAS, we do not hold on to Christ; He holds on to us.​

But OSAS doesn’t say that now, does it sandusky? It follows the loopy logic that Luther invented, and that as long as one proclaims Christ, then even if one sins over and over, he is still saved.

Since Calvin often protests against the perversion that Christ has redeemed us from sin in order to give us freedom & opportunity to re-crucify Him by further sins, there is really nothing more to be said. This misrepresentation (which St. Paul also protested against) is no different from the untruth that we worship the Pope.​

Luther’s saying was an instance of hyperbole - like this:

13 If we wish to proceed securely in all things, we must hold fast to the following principles: What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines. For I must be convinced that in Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and in His spouse the Church, only one Spirit holds sway, which governs and rules for the salvation of souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord who gave the Ten Commandments that our holy Mother Church is ruled and governed.

St. Ignatius Loyola was not have been advocating falsehood - & if he can be defended, why not Luther ? For far too long, admirers of either have lambasted the other. ##

Sandusky, can you explain to us where in the Bible can be found a verse that equates sin to holding fast to Christ?

From the Shorter Catechism, which forms part of the Westminster Confession of Faith:​

bpc.org/resources/wsc/wsc_035.html

Q: What is sanctification?
A: Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace,1 whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God,2 and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.3

See the link for more ##

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

But that’s the point. No one is “worthy” of heaven, IMHO. Jesus makes us worthy, because His righteousness
is our righteousness.

We agree that no one is worthy of Heaven. But with all that God has done for us and all that we’ve done against God, we will never be worthy of Heaven. Jesus gave us the option of Heaven, but in no way does that make us worthy. It’s only God’s immense love for us that He will allow us anywhere near His kingdom. I don’t think that we should take advanatge of God’s generosity by treating it like it’s a freebee. You wouldn’t trash a friend’s house just because he invited you over and said “Make yourself comfortable. My house is your house.” You would respect the kindness he’d shown you in opening his house to you. If you don’t, your friend won’t have you over anymore.

This may be dangerous, because we could probably throw Bible verses back and forth for years , but I’m willing to take that chance:

*James 2:24 *“You must perceive that a person is justified by his works and not by faith alone.”

James 2:26 “Be assuerd, then, that faith without works is as dead as a body without breath”

Matt 7:21 “None of those who cry out ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in Heaven.”

All three of those make it pretty clear that the way we live our life counts and we can’t say our faith assures us a place in Heaven. Faith is only a start. Saying that you accept Jesus is good, but actions do speak louder than words. You wouldn’t believe somebody who said they were Christian and yet sinned in every way possible with no regret. How could God let that person into Heaven when they lived contrary to the way He had told us to? Yet if Heaven is assured for those who accept Christ’s salvation, the unrepentant sinner gets a free pass.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Milliardo:

Read my post again, sandusky. John supports OSAS? Funny you can come up with that. Like I said, OSAS becomes problematic once you come go to the loopy logic that accompanies it. We take what you said now and thus come up with this problem (again, it helps to reread): if you say that you will commit sin still, then what does that make of OSAS, sandusky? Is that still OSAS? How can you say you’re saved if you will still commit sin? See, that’s where the whole problem comes in. Now you’ll say that for as long as we hold fast to Christ, we won’t sin. That’s not OSAS anymore, since there’s a condition that comes in (as long as one holds on to Christ).

Indeed it isn’t; for in OSAS, we do not hold on to Christ; He holds on to us.​

But OSAS doesn’t say that now, does it sandusky? It follows the loopy logic that Luther invented, and that as long as one proclaims Christ, then even if one sins over and over, he is still saved.

As Calvin often protests against the perversion that Christ has redeemed us from sin in order to give us freedom & opportunity to re-crucify Him by further sins, there is really nothing more to be said. This misrepresentation (which St. Paul also protested against) is no different from the untruth that we worship the Pope.​

[continued…]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

[continued]

---

Rest of post in attachment - have spent over an hour trying to send one pesky e-mail :banghead: :crying: ​

 

[system]

Yes, it is. There is even a name for it. It is called the sin of presumption.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…continued & ended]

Luther’s saying was an hyperbole - like this:

13 If we wish to proceed securely in all things, we must hold fast to the following principles: What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines. For I must be convinced that in Christ our Lord, the Bridegroom, and in His spouse the Church, only one Spirit holds sway, which governs and rules for the salvation of souls. For it is by the same Spirit and Lord who gave the Ten Commandments that our holy Mother Church is ruled and governed.

pcentral-online.net/theo/rules.html

St. Ignatius Loyola was not advocating falsehood - & if he can be defended, why not Luther ? For too long, admirers of either have lambasted the other. ##

Sandusky, can you explain to us where in the Bible can be found a verse that equates sin to holding fast to Christ?

Some words from the Shorter Catechism, which forms part of the Westminster Confession of Faith:​

bpc.org/resources/wsc/wsc_035.html

Q: What is sanctification?

A: Sanctification is the work of God’s free grace,1 whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God,2 and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness.3

See the link for more ##

 

[reen12]

Dear MariaGorettiGrl,

quote: MariaGorettiGrl
We agree that no one is worthy of Heaven. But with all that God has done for us and all that we’ve done against God, we will never be worthy of Heaven. Jesus gave us the option of Heaven, but in no way does that make us worthy.

…but in no way does that make us worthy.

Oh, but it does. His righteousness is our righteousness.

quote: MariaGorettiGrl
I don’t think that we should take advanatge of God’s generosity by treating it like it’s a freebee. You wouldn’t trash a friend’s house just because he invited you over and said “Make yourself comfortable. My house is your house.” You would respect the kindness he’d shown you in opening his house to you. If you don’t, your friend won’t have you over anymore.

Who’s “…treating it like it’s a freebee.”?

quote: reen12

Our “work” is to follow His commands, out of love and gratitude, as well as obedience, and* trust* Him for our salvation.

Those who have blessed assurance are too busy trying
to carry out the commands of Christ, to have the spare
time to “trash” anyone’s house.

If we could get out of the “event” imagery:

Yet if Heaven is assured for those who accept Christ’s salvation, the unrepentant sinner gets a free pass.

and into the imagery of the Good Shepherd, we could
then say:

Those with blessed assurance keep close to the
Shepherd and hear His voice, trying their best,
with His help, to follow His commands. They
trust Him to keep them safe, and lead them back
Home, bleating all the way.

And* none* of those sheep are fretting over whether
they’re in a state of grace, with certainty.
It’s not even a category for consideration, for them.

In short, you can only *have *blessed assurance if you’re
huddling close to the Shepherd…and following His
commands, as best you can, through the grace of God -
[Amazing Grace.]

It’s a matter of trust, not a set of freebee season
tickets to heaven!

[BTW, there is a *big difference between blessed assurance
and OSAS.]

God be with you, MariaGorettiGrl,

reen12

 

[Philthy]

reen12:

Those who have blessed assurance are too busy trying
to carry out the commands of Christ, to have the spare
time to “trash” anyone’s house.

I can live with this- those with blessed assurance are recognized- and inseparable from - their obedience.

reen12:

Those with blessed assurance keep close to the
Shepherd and hear His voice, trying their best,
with His help, to follow His commands. They
trust Him to keep them safe, and lead them back
Home, bleating all the way.

Im OK with this too

reen12:

And* none*

of those sheep are fretting over whether
they’re in a state of grace, with certainty.
It’s not even a category for consideration, for them.

Filled with the humility of complete dependence on Him- still OK with this!

reen12:

It’s a matter of trust, not a set of freebee season
tickets to heaven!

Now you are slipping slightly in your articulations - trust and obedience- remember where you started? They can’t be separated. You can’t say you trust the Lord and then don’t live your life “in Him”

reen12:

BTW, there is a big

difference between blessed assurance
and OSAS.

reen12

Sounds like it. Sounds like blessed assurance is the peace of mind to proceed into the future based on the assurance of the present reality of your state of Grace. Im not sure how this distinguishes itself from Catholicism though…

Phil

 

[reen12]

Hi, Philthy,

quote: Philthy

Now you are slipping slightly in your articulations - trust and obedience-

remember where you started? They can’t be separated. You can’t say you trust the Lord and then don’t live your life “in Him”

quote: reen12 post #59 in this thread:

Jesus has already* done* the work. Our “work” is to
follow His commands, out of love and gratitude, as
well as obedience, and* trust* Him for our salvation.

I take “follow His commands” and “obedience”
to be interchangable terms.

Unless I’ve missed your point?

quote: Philthy

Sounds like it. Sounds like blessed assurance is the peace of mind to proceed into the future based on the assurance of the present reality of your state of Grace. Im not sure how this distinguishes itself from Catholicism though…

Im not sure how this distinguishes itself from Catholicism though…

Your own choice of terms, expressses the difference, I think, Philthy.

…based on the assurance of the present reality of your state of Grace.

In terms of blessed assurance, the words you chose
sound more like a stock report, than a relationship
with the Shepherd, IMHO, as in:

“What’s the current quote on ‘state of grace.’”

The sheep hear the Shepherd’s voice.
“I know my sheep, and My sheep know Me.”

It’s not that a given sheep, after being so close to
the Shepherd, can never go astray [sin, seriously].
But even in this instance, the Shepherd will leave
the flock, and go after the one who went astray.

“I am the Good Shepherd. The good shepherd is
willing to lay down His life for His sheep.”

Does this Shepherd think in terms of “state of grace?”
I doubt it. He knows that this sheep is possibly
frightened, perhaps even close to despair…tangeled,
as it is, in some bushes…tangeled in sin.

What the heart of this Shepherd wants is to save
this injured sheep and carry it back to the flock,
to be near Him…He doesn’t want…or need…a
status report on its “state of grace.”

It’s the best I can do, to convey the difference
between blessed assurance and all talk of
“state of grace.”

Best,

reen12

 

[GerardPaul]

Yes it is! I am in an e-mail relationship with a Calvary Chapel(free church bible only)member and I told him what you all have said with a few scriptures and he got angry and gave me some scriptures to support his view. He also said something about the saved are like the ones who get to the Olympics they are the chosen few a special group not judged by works they have allready been through qualifing events. Sounds funny to me from a bible only group because I don’t remember that in the bible. What do you think?

Jeffrey

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Reen,

I trust that if I have tried my hardest to live in a state of sinlessness, God won’t cast me into hell. I trust that God is a fair judge and knows what’s in my heart of hearts. But I do not trust that I can ignore God’s commandments and be saved without ever repenting. I trust in God, not in myself.

I have seen people who claim to be “Catholic” and yet all they do is come to part of mass on Sunday and then go out and sleep around and drink and use God’s name in vain and steal and basically do everything opposite of what they’re supposed to do. Yet they think they have a free ride because they came for part of mass.

It is too much to believe that sinful sheep such as ourselves will not wander out into the outer pasture. If we truly feel secure, we won’t fear wolves hidding and waiting to pounce us, so why should we not see what the grass over there tastes like?

Everywhere in the Bible it talks about “Fearing the Lord”. This doesn’t mean be afraid that He might smite you at any moment. It means to have enough respect for Him and acknowledgement that He has absolutely NO obligation to you to save your sinful behind. Yes, He died to save us, but He is GOD!!! He does not answer to us. He offered us salvation, but it’s not His fault nor His punishment if we refused to take it by following His commandments.

Your assurance seems a false sense of security to me.

 

[reen12]

Hi, MariaGorettiGrl,

In as brief a way as I can put it:

-blessed assurance does *not *mean once saved, always
saved [OSAS]
-it means following the commands of Christ, as much
as you are able to, with God’s grace, through the
redemption wrought by Christ…and by doing this,
achieving the peace of heart and soul Christ emphasized
that He’d brought to us.

The difference between this, and RC theology, is that
the emphasis is on total trust in Christ and His
righteousness, for salvation…
no anxiety over my “state of grace”

This fear can remain, in the sense that there is a
sense of awe and “trembling” in terms of what
Christ has wrought for us *

But this is light years away from fretting over
my “state of grace”…which, to me, is one of the
most odious terms in the religious lexicon.

“State of grace” fosters an attitude of looking inward,
taking my eyes off Jesus, as Peter did, out
on the lake, IMHO.
The moment Peter took his eyes off Christ,
looking “inward”, he began to sink.

[In short, when doctrinal definitions replace
scriptural imagery, we end up with terms
like “state of grace.”]

It then becomes difficult to see Jesus,
as He presented Himself in the scriptures,
thru the thicket of definitions.

I’ve spent a lifetime, reading theology, and
I am grateful for the grace that brought me
to sing Blessed Assurance.*

 

[Philthy]

reen12:

In terms of blessed assurance, the words you chose
sound more like a stock report, than a relationship
with the Shepherd, IMHO, as in:

“What’s the current quote on ‘state of grace.’”

The sheep hear the Shepherd’s voice.
“I know my sheep, and My sheep know Me.”

It’s not that a given sheep, after being so close to
the Shepherd, can never go astray [sin, seriously].
But even in this instance, the Shepherd will leave
the flock, and go after the one who went astray.

“I am the Good Shepherd. The good shepherd is
willing to lay down His life for His sheep.”

Does this Shepherd think in terms of “state of grace?”
I doubt it. He knows that this sheep is possibly
frightened, perhaps even close to despair…tangeled,
as it is, in some bushes…tangeled in sin.

What the heart of this Shepherd wants is to save
this injured sheep and carry it back to the flock,
to be near Him…He doesn’t want…or need…a
status report on its “state of grace.”

It’s the best I can do, to convey the difference
between blessed assurance and all talk of
“state of grace.”

Best,

reen12

Hi reen -

You seem to be quibbling over semantics. The language I was using was simply an honest attempt to make sure we both know what we’re talking about. You have not clearly articulated what you mean IMHO, how blessed assurance is substantially different than the Catholic position. Instead, you seem to have noted stylistic differences in our means of written communication.

No problem, though - its irrelevent-

Phil

 

[Philthy]

reen12:

In as brief a way as I can put it:

Why not concentrate on being explicit instead of brief? You in a rush?

reen12:

-blessed assurance does *not *mean once saved, always
saved [OSAS]
-it means following the commands of Christ, as much
as you are able to, with God’s grace, through the
redemption wrought by Christ…and by doing this,
achieving the peace of heart and soul Christ emphasized
that He’d brought to us.

Beautiful. Tell me how this differs from JP2’s:
“Peace of mind is knowing that you are loved by God and that you are doing his will”. Sounds very similar to me.

reen12:

The difference between this, and RC theology, is that
the emphasis is on total trust in Christ and His
righteousness, for salvation…

That may simply be your take on it. To me, RC theology acknowledges and reaffirms our total trust in Christ. But it is only natural to ask,“Now what? What do I do on a day to day basis?”
Much of that theology is an attempt to apply that complete trust on a daily basis and over the course of a lifetime.

no anxiety over my “state of grace”
This fear can remain, in the sense that there is a
sense of awe and “trembling” in terms of what
Christ has wrought for us *
*
Sorry, you lost me here. What, exactly, is the reason for fear remaining? “In terms of what Christ wrought for us” brings pure joy, not fear.

reen12:

But this is light years away from fretting over
my “state of grace”…which, to me, is one of the
most odious terms in the religious lexicon.

Fretting over ones state of Grace? Why would one be fretting? It is simply a reflection of where our walk is with Him.

reen12:

“State of grace” fosters an attitude of looking inward,
taking my eyes off Jesus, as Peter did, out
on the lake, IMHO.
The moment Peter took his eyes off Christ,
looking “inward”, he began to sink.

“State of Grace” is an attempt at articulating a reality for discussion - it does not foster an attitude per se, does it?

reen12:

[In short, when doctrinal definitions replace
scriptural imagery, we end up with terms
like “state of grace.”]

No disagreement there. Its a theological term, not a parable, to help understanding where confusion exists.

reen12:
It then becomes difficult to see Jesus,
as He presented Himself in the scriptures,
thru the thicket of definitions.

That can happen for sure - I agree

reen12:

I’ve spent a lifetime, reading theology, and
I am grateful for the grace that brought me
to sing Blessed Assurance.

Beautiful! Grace is the only way. But your personal road and understanding doesn’t mean its the only way though, does it?

Happy for you-

Phil

 

[reen12]

Dear Phil,

A really solid presention, I think.

Listen, Phil, will you do the Church a favor, and also
the readers on these forums?

Explain your understanding of the “certainty” of salvation,
in RCC theology.
Is it the same as blessed assurance, as I’ve described it?
If not, how does it differ.

Jeremiads on my part, aside , I know there is a
real interest in having this issue addressed, clearly.
There’s a thread, in progress, discussing same, but I feel
that you might be able to make a substantial contribution
to this debate.

Of course, the realtion of this topic, “certainty”, to the
thread topic, is clear.

I’d appreciate it, if you’d consider giving this a thorough go.
[BTW, I think that the objection to the RCC position, is
the sacramental system, in terms of assurance…the
mediator of the sole Mediator.]

Best,
reen12

 

[Philthy]

reen12:

Dear Phil,

A really solid presention, I think. Listen, Phil, will you do the Church a favor, and also the readers on these forums?

As I was reading this I thought you were being facetious and that your next comment was going to be something like,“Will you get lost and let the rest of us talk?” My manner of writing and insistence on clear, unambiguous language causes many to feel I am being obnoxious (particularly my wife!).

reen12:

Explain your understanding of the “certainty” of salvation,in RCC theology. Is it the same as blessed assurance, as I’ve described it? If not, how does it differ.

I don’t know how it differs, and that would require some working definitions from each of us - I hope they are basically the same, though, and my inclination is to believe that they are. I will try to explain my thoughts regarding our awareness of the certainty of our salvation and how that is, in my opinion, limited by the reality of time. It will not be deeply embedded with theological nuance, but I will strive for a very practical understanding. If I wander from orthodoxy I hope someone will correct me - I am not an expert. Here goes…

When we discuss our awareness of our salvation, I believe we are discussing our perception of the state of our relationship to God the Father, Son and Spirit. I have twice emphasized the term awareness, because I don’t wish to deal with the topic of infant Baptism and how it effects the relationship with God. In addition, I do not wish to entertain any specific, direct, individual revelation that someone may receive. Fair enough?

On this side of eternity that relationship has a beginning and an end. Between the beginning and end, the relationship will usually experience change (both good and bad) as a result of our lives, which can serve to strengthen, weaken or even eliminate that relationship. My understanding of the beginning of that relationship, or at least a precurser to it is from Proverbs1:7 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge…” Some find this difficult to reconcile with a loving God, but that stems more from a lack of appreciation of God’s unfathomable holiness and our own despicable unholiness, more than anything else. Regardless, it is the beginning of that relationship and it serves to motivate the individual. This motivation leads the individual to desire to know God so that they can live appropriately. The Old Covenant law served as the means by which an individual could live to embrace obedience to God. Christ came to fulfill that law, atone for our sins so that “we might not perish, but have everlasting life”. The process by which we achieve "everlasting life” and are “saved” is called salvation. Please note that I described this as a “process” because I believe it is just that. It is a dynamic process just like our relationship with God. And it is all by Grace, through faith. The nagging question that we are attempting to answer depends very much on what our understanding of what “through faith” means.

Con’d…

 

[Philthy]

The degree to which we lay down “our” life and embrace, instead, the life God intends for us - through faith, hope, charity, love, and obedience is, in my mind, the degree to which we can experience the awareness of our salvation. This ties in perfectly with the simple yet powerful words of Pope John Paul ll when he said: “Peace of mind comes from knowing that you are loved by God and that you are doing his will” Its just so good and so simple! He entirely bypasses the complicated descriptions of what cognitive state we are in- whether its confidence or absolute assurance or whatever - and just calls it “peace of mind”. But I believe he is addressing the very heart of the matter we are discussing. But there is an unresolved issue for this thread, and that is the question of your salvation being “guaranteed”. The reason for confusion is because for some salvation is an instantaneous, complete, and permanent past event. I won’t discuss why I disagree with this characterization, but I will say that, in explaining Catholic understanding one must understand that salvation is thought of as a process. It has a beginning - and this is typically understood as initial salvation - and it has an end - final salvation which occurs after death. These are terms created to facilitate discussion more han anything else. This accounts for the “I was saved, I am saved, and I will be saved” that all comes from the mouth of one person - Paul- at different points in scripture. I believe it is possible, from a Catholic perspective, to “know” that you were saved and are currently saved, with this latter entity often described as your current “state of Grace”. I think its possible to believe “If I died right now I would go to heaven (achieve final salvation).” That, however, is very different from saying “I am guaranteed to go to Heaven whenever I die” Why? Because it fails to acknowledge that you simply don’t know the future and what it holds in terms of the choices you will make with respect to loving God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. Its just a fact: I am a human and I don’t KNOW what the future holds. It doesn’t mean that one needs to be fearful at all. One can have “peace of mind” and the “confident expectation” of “persevering until the end” in God’s grace. It in no way diminishes the redemptive work of Christ’s crucifixion or God’s Grace. As an example, I would give the following: Is it guaranteed that tomorrow the sun will rise? If one is honest, they will answer that “no, it’s not a guarantee” There is, however, every reason to believe that it will, and you can therefore “confidently expect” that it will, and live without an overwhelming fear that it might not. I believe most of this discussion over the years was the result of refuting the OSAS belief and also the, “Lets sin all the more that Grace may abound all the more”.

Well, that’s my take on it. I have to also add that “blessed assurance” has a much nicer ring to it than “confident expectation”. But as I said before, I think that is due more to the need to clarify explicitly what is intended than anything else.

I hope this is helpful…

Phil

PS

You mentioned another thread regarding this topic, but didn’t provide a link……

 

[reen12]

Dear Phil,

I’ve just finished reading your post #74.
A model of clarity and precision, I think. :tiphat:
Thank you for that!

quote: Philthy

When we discuss our awareness

of our salvation, I believe we are discussing our perception of the state of our relationship to God the Father, Son and Spirit.

quote: Philthy

My manner of writing and insistence on clear, unambiguous language causes many to feel I am being obnoxious

Au contraire, as the French say.

*Unless *a position is defined clearly and unambiguously,
it’s difficult for any fruitful discussion to take place.
I can’t agree or disagree, with a person’s position,
until I can understand clearly, what that positon is.

quote: Philthy

Between the beginning and end, the relationship will usually experience change (both good and bad) as a result of our lives, which can serve to strengthen, weaken or even eliminate that relationship.

You never spoke a truer word!

[May I add one additional scenario?
Those times in life, when we are so* stunned, by
what life has dealt us, that God isn’t even
“on the radar”, so to speak. This is when each
of us has to rely on the prayers of our fellow
Christians to God, *for *us.] does that make sense?

quote: Philthy

…from Proverbs1:7 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge…” Some find this difficult to reconcile with a loving God, but that stems more from a lack of appreciation of God’s unfathomable holiness and our own despicable unholiness, more than anything else.

Someone, on another website, said:

When I stand before God, without a shred of
righteouness…
*that’s *when I understand Amazing Grace, and
what Christ has done for me…
His righteousness is my righteousness

quote: Philthy

The process by which we achieve "everlasting life” and are “saved” is called salvation. Please note that I described this as a “process” because I believe it is just that. It is a dynamic process just like our relationship with God. And it is all by Grace, through faith. The nagging question that we are attempting to answer depends very much on what our understanding of what “through faith” means.

One of the finest paragraphs I’ve had the pleasure to
read on CAF, Phil.

[got to go shopping…I’ll read #75 when I return]

Many thanks for addressing this topic, Phil.

Best regards,

Maureen

 

[jimmy]

JMJ

• Is it sinful to assume that your salvation is “guaranteed”?
• Does it show a lack of humility or respect for our Lord?
• **Does it amount to assuming God’s role in final judgment? **
• Isn’t it better to approach our salvation with humility, fear and trembling in the “hope” of our salvation and put our final judgment in God’s hands?

---

Yes, presumption of the mercy of God is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

 

[reen12]

Hi, jimmy,

quote: jimmy

Yes, presumption of the mercy of God is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

And, to me, Jimmy, that’s what it all comes down to.

The distintion between:

-presuming God will save me, with no solid effort on my part

and

-assurance, that Christ will keep His promise to me, if I do

This is called trust, not presumption

Best,

reen12