C
CJE
Guest
Yes. It is presumption – a sin against the Holy Spirit.
- Status
G
gryskull
Guest
I agree!!!:dancing:
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, Philthy,
Been on the road for 4 hours, shopping.
Want to be able to read post #75 in a more
rested condition.
Will get back to you, on that post, later this evening,
Thanks, :tiphat:
reen
Been on the road for 4 hours, shopping.
Want to be able to read post #75 in a more
rested condition.
Will get back to you, on that post, later this evening,
Thanks, :tiphat:
reen
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Jimmy B.
It was the worldly lust of the Pharisees to be exalted in the world as God’s chosen few to recieve eternal life. When Jesus pointed out to the masses that this was not the case, they killed Him.
NAB JOH 5:39
**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”
NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet
Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son…
**…**But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.
NAB REV 19:6
Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,**
NAB MAT 3:8They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”**NAB LUK 16:16 The Law. **
"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in**. NAB MAT 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." NAB MAT 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."
NAB MAT 12:14
When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.
It was the worldly lust of the Pharisees to be exalted in the world as God’s chosen few to recieve eternal life. When Jesus pointed out to the masses that this was not the case, they killed Him.
NAB JOH 5:39
**“Search the Scriptures in which you think you have eternal life–**they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life. It is not that I accept human praise-- it is simply that I know you, and you do not have the love of God in your hearts.”
NAB MAT 22 The Wedding Banquet
Jesus again in reply spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son…
**…**But when the king came in to meet the guests he saw a man there not dressed in a wedding garment. He said to him, ‘My friend, how is it that you came in here without a wedding garment?’ But he was reduced to silence. Then the king said to his attendants, ‘Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.’ Many are invited, but few are chosen." Then the Pharisees went off and plotted how they might entrap him in speech.
NAB REV 19:6
For the wedding day of the Lamb has come, his bride has made herself ready. She was allowed to wear a bright, clean linen garment." (The linen represents the righteous deeds of the holy ones.)
**NAB MAT 21:43 **Therefore, I say to you,** the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.** ( The one who falls on this stone will be dashed to pieces; and it will crush anyone on whom it falls.)" When the chief priests and** the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them. And although they were attempting to arrest him,**
NAB MAT 3:8They were being baptized by him in the Jordan River as they confessed their sins. When he saw that many of the Pharisees and Sadducees were stepping forward for this bath, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who told you to flee from the wrath to come? Give some evidence that you mean to reform. Do not pride yourselves on the claim, ‘Abraham is our father.’ I tell you, God can raise up children to Abraham from these very stones.”**NAB LUK 16:16 The Law. **
"The law and the prophets were in force** until John. From his time on, the good news of God’s kingdom has been proclaimed, and people of every sort are forcing their way in**. NAB MAT 11:11
"I solemnly assure you, history has not known a man born of woman greater than John the Baptizer. Yet the least born into the Kingdom of God is greater than he. From John the Baptizer’s time until now the kingdom of God has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force." NAB MAT 21:37
"Finally he sent his son to them, thinking, “They will respect my son.’ When they saw the son, the tenants said to one another, 'Here is the one who will inherit everything. Let us kill him and then we shall have his inheritance!” With that they seized him, dragged him outside the vineyard, and killed him."
NAB MAT 12:14
When the Pharisees were outside they began to plot against him to find a way to destroy him.
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, Phil,
quote: Philthy
A good point.
quote: Philthy
quote: Philthy
BTW, here’s the thread that contains the discussion of
the “certainty” of salvation: *
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=67141&highlight=reen12
Many thanks, Phil, for taking the time to present,
clearly, how RCC expression may coincide with
my own understanding of blessed assurance.
Every best wish,
reen12*
quote: Philthy
.
A good point.
quote: Philthy
Yes! That is my defintion of “blessed assurance.”
quote: Philthy
Thanks, Phil, you’ve said it more clearly than I, I think.
BTW, here’s the thread that contains the discussion of
the “certainty” of salvation: *
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=67141&highlight=reen12
Many thanks, Phil, for taking the time to present,
clearly, how RCC expression may coincide with
my own understanding of blessed assurance.
Every best wish,
reen12*
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, Phil,
I went and found the Council of Trent documents,
online, at:
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
Please take a look at Canon XXIV.
[a little past mid-way down that webpage.]
Also, Canon XXXII, which speaks of an “increase of glory.”
I was startled by Canon XXIV.
There is *no such reality *as an increase in the “justice
received.”
We are justified by Christ. Nothing that we do, good
work, piled on good work, keeping Christ’s commands,
“increases” “justice.” i.e. our justification.]
If the Church wishes to speak of an “increase of glory”,
as in Paul’s speaking of “the weight of glory” to come,
that’s speculation, but I don’t necessarily have an
agrument with that* possibility*, but to speak of the
possiblity of the increase in the “justice received”
flies in the face of what St. Paul wrote, IMHO.
In terms of an awareness of our own salvation, you wrote:
quote: Philthy
Gawd, I really am an Evangelical. And nobody is more
surprised by that than me.
The RCC has kept the Mass, as sacrifice. That is her
glory.
Outside of that Reality of realities, I’m with the Evangelicals,
Monday thru Saturday.
I’m going back over to the thread I referrenced above,
tomorrow, and will site the two Canons, from Trent.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthre…ighlight=reen12
Best,
reen12
I went and found the Council of Trent documents,
online, at:
history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
Please take a look at Canon XXIV.
[a little past mid-way down that webpage.]
Also, Canon XXXII, which speaks of an “increase of glory.”
I was startled by Canon XXIV.
There is *no such reality *as an increase in the “justice
received.”
We are justified by Christ. Nothing that we do, good
work, piled on good work, keeping Christ’s commands,
“increases” “justice.” i.e. our justification.]
If the Church wishes to speak of an “increase of glory”,
as in Paul’s speaking of “the weight of glory” to come,
that’s speculation, but I don’t necessarily have an
agrument with that* possibility*, but to speak of the
possiblity of the increase in the “justice received”
flies in the face of what St. Paul wrote, IMHO.
In terms of an awareness of our own salvation, you wrote:
quote: Philthy
I think the same can be said [in terms of your quote above] with reference to the “weight of glory” that will be ours, in line with Trent’s reference to same, [which [/color]I see as speculation, but which could conceivably be based on St. Paul].
Gawd, I really am an Evangelical. And nobody is more
surprised by that than me.
The RCC has kept the Mass, as sacrifice. That is her
glory.
Outside of that Reality of realities, I’m with the Evangelicals,
Monday thru Saturday.
I’m going back over to the thread I referrenced above,
tomorrow, and will site the two Canons, from Trent.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthre…ighlight=reen12
Best,
reen12
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Steven Merten:
Thank you for your reply. Because Jesus lived, suffered and died for our sins, we all have the hope of salvation, God willing.
Steven,
Thank you for your reply. Because Jesus lived, suffered and died for our sins, we all have the hope of salvation, God willing.
Thank You Jesus!*
A
Assurance
Guest
The answer is “No!” - if we are talking about confidence in one’s current state of grace - but Rome does not permit such confidence in their official teaching:
Read more here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096
Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong?
Read more here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=73096
Love in Christ,
isfatherwrong?
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello, Assurance and thank you for your post. I think we agree with the exception the I believe that “Rome” does allow for such “confidence” in our “hope” of Salvation. That may be, just a semantical difference; and then there is the issue of “Justification” and its many different “definitions.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the Catholic doctrine is; the “assurance” of our “hope” of Salvation (justification), this belief still allows for Gods’ will.
Where on the other hand, many Protestants believe in a “guaranteed “salvation (especially, those religions that follow Calvin and predestination).
There is a difference for example, between; “I hope I get this job”; and “I know the I will get this job”.
The first belief assumes the employer has control over the final hiring decision and the second assumes that, the applicant has control over the final decision.
The second belief (that the employee has the power or control) in the above scenario makes about as much sense as the belief in a “guaranteed salvation.” We all know that the “Boss” or the employer has control over the final decision. "God is the “Boss”.
The difference is that, we as Catholic believe that everything is “God’s Will”, including “our” Salvation and to believe otherwise, would be presumptuous and go against the Holy Spirit, which guides God’s Church, the Roman Catholic Church.
It this not the “Un-Forgivable Sin”. Wouldn’t preaching this false doctrine of “Guaranteed Salvation” be "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Hasn’t this issue been addressed and similarly applied in previous cases, involving heretic’s; to those who have previously preach a false doctrine(s) against the Church, in which the guilty party was condemned “Excommunicated”, or “Cut off”?
If I am wrong, where does the belief in, “there exist no Salvation outside the Church” come from?
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
**
**26 **While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
John
Chapter 6
**51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." **
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
**
Chapter 26
**26 **While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
John
Chapter 6
**51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." **
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
**
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
that your salvation is “guaranteed”?
- Does it show a lack of humility or respect for our Lord?
- **Does it amount to assuming God’s role in final judgment? **
- Isn’t it better to approach our salvation with humility, fear and trembling in the “hope” of our salvation and put our final judgment in God’s hands?
Quote:
Chapter 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you,
28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.
John
Chapter 6
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
**
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
Matthew
Chapter 24
13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
Matthew
Chapter 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
1 Timothy
Chapter 4
10 For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe
**
Chapter 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.
21 But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God.
Matthew
Chapter 24
13 But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
Matthew
Chapter 25
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
1 Timothy
Chapter 4
10 For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe
**
G
GraceDK
Guest
If you believe in Jesus and call Him your Saviour because of what He has already accomplished upon the Cross, and you do the best you can to live a charitable life, loving the commands of God and having peace with the Lord and your neighbour then I think it would be odd not to believe you are saved and will be with the Lord forever.
The way I see it Christianity defines itself apart from Judaism and Islam by the fact that the entrance ticket to Heaven is a Person, namely Christ, not a set of laws that we can fulfill…
Having no TRUST in the Lord and continuously calling Him Father at the same time… I see no sense in that. In fact I would call it false humility that one should beware off.
How odd this might seem I see belief as the most humble act of all. That includes belief that you are loved, saved and wanted in the House where the Lord has prepared a room for you in Eternity.
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. The Son does not wait to set us free till after we are dead. He sets us free this hour so we can go and win souls to fill up His celestial halls.
Love has no room for fear.
The way I see it Christianity defines itself apart from Judaism and Islam by the fact that the entrance ticket to Heaven is a Person, namely Christ, not a set of laws that we can fulfill…
Having no TRUST in the Lord and continuously calling Him Father at the same time… I see no sense in that. In fact I would call it false humility that one should beware off.
How odd this might seem I see belief as the most humble act of all. That includes belief that you are loved, saved and wanted in the House where the Lord has prepared a room for you in Eternity.
Whom the Son sets free is free indeed. The Son does not wait to set us free till after we are dead. He sets us free this hour so we can go and win souls to fill up His celestial halls.
Love has no room for fear.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
G
GraceDK
Guest
Dear Jimmy.
glad to hear that brother
this thing is quite essential and I found out just how much
while walking throu a very dark night of the soul some
time ago.
I had been in inner turmoil and darkness for quite a while due to
shame and depression as the effect of serious sin that had left me disillusioned… I was, spiritually speaking, lying on the ground unable to get up or be of use to anybody.
One night I was sitting among a group of friends and thinking inside: “if you could see my shame and darkness you would all be shocked.” One of my friends was quietely talking about the
sovereign salvific act on the Cross and he said this Biblical truth:
the righteousness of Christ has become my own, therefore I am free. His words
went into my soul like a sword that cut all the unessential away… I thought: where the heck have
I been?!.. I know this… I KNOW this… but I had forgotten it and in my
darkness I needed it so desperately… but it wasnt preached from
our pulpits!
It was like lightning. I then realised… I cannot rise to my feet or
have any hope in life if I don’t understand first that Jesus is compassionate… He is love and “He has my back” no less on
the bad days as on the good. He is Love unconditional… thats a
truth I can live and die on… without it I cannot even live the next
few moments…
Sound Catholicism must be defined by one word when it comes to our relationship with God: Trust.
God bless you <><
glad to hear that brother
this thing is quite essential and I found out just how much
while walking throu a very dark night of the soul some
time ago.
I had been in inner turmoil and darkness for quite a while due to
shame and depression as the effect of serious sin that had left me disillusioned… I was, spiritually speaking, lying on the ground unable to get up or be of use to anybody.
One night I was sitting among a group of friends and thinking inside: “if you could see my shame and darkness you would all be shocked.” One of my friends was quietely talking about the
sovereign salvific act on the Cross and he said this Biblical truth:
the righteousness of Christ has become my own, therefore I am free. His words
went into my soul like a sword that cut all the unessential away… I thought: where the heck have
I been?!.. I know this… I KNOW this… but I had forgotten it and in my
darkness I needed it so desperately… but it wasnt preached from
our pulpits!
It was like lightning. I then realised… I cannot rise to my feet or
have any hope in life if I don’t understand first that Jesus is compassionate… He is love and “He has my back” no less on
the bad days as on the good. He is Love unconditional… thats a
truth I can live and die on… without it I cannot even live the next
few moments…
Sound Catholicism must be defined by one word when it comes to our relationship with God: Trust.
God bless you <><
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Thank you…I agree…BTW, I love St. John of the Cross.Dear Jimmy.
glad to hear that brother
this thing is quite essential and I found out just how much
while walking throu a very dark night of the soul some
time ago.
I had been in inner turmoil and darkness for quite a while due to
shame and depression as the effect of serious sin that had left me disillusioned… I was, spiritually speaking, lying on the ground unable to get up or be of use to anybody.
One night I was sitting among a group of friends and thinking inside: “if you could see my shame and darkness you would all be shocked.” One of my friends was quietely talking about the
sovereign salvific act on the Cross and he said this Biblical truth:
the righteousness of Christ has become my own, therefore I am free. His words
went into my soul like a sword that cut all the unessential away… I thought: where the heck have
I been?!.. I know this… I KNOW this… but I had forgotten it and in my
darkness I needed it so desperately… but it wasnt preached from
our pulpits!
It was like lightning. I then realised… I cannot rise to my feet or
have any hope in life if I don’t understand first that Jesus is compassionate… He is love and “He has my back” no less on
the bad days as on the good. He is Love unconditional… thats a
truth I can live and die on… without it I cannot even live the next
few moments…
Sound Catholicism must be defined by one word when it comes to our relationship with God: Trust.
God bless you <><
Peace
G
GraceDK
Guest
Hey Jimmy…
you love St. John of the Cross?
lucky you… as for me and my friends few of us have actually read his work… many talk of him but few really found his book “light reading”…
Still glad you agree… I was somewhat afraid people might attack me for my interpretation of the love of God…
I am in no way saying that our salvation has been bought at a low price… Only I am saying that Love is not calculating… that’s how it is, and Jesus has displayed it to us in abundance. We can add nothing, nada, to the Salvation He bought for us with His Blood. We start Christian walk by resting in that fact… in wonder of His Love. And when we are in the dirt all the way to the neck we look up at Him and see Him extending His hand to us…
Be like children, says Jesus…
Joy and peace in Christ are the qualities that will make people come to us to hear the Truth. But we cannot pass on what we dont have in the first place… and we dont have peace if we believe we are hanging mid-air between nothingness, the abyss and the Hands of Mercy.
Shalom brother.
you love St. John of the Cross?
lucky you… as for me and my friends few of us have actually read his work… many talk of him but few really found his book “light reading”…
Still glad you agree… I was somewhat afraid people might attack me for my interpretation of the love of God…
I am in no way saying that our salvation has been bought at a low price… Only I am saying that Love is not calculating… that’s how it is, and Jesus has displayed it to us in abundance. We can add nothing, nada, to the Salvation He bought for us with His Blood. We start Christian walk by resting in that fact… in wonder of His Love. And when we are in the dirt all the way to the neck we look up at Him and see Him extending His hand to us…
Be like children, says Jesus…
Joy and peace in Christ are the qualities that will make people come to us to hear the Truth. But we cannot pass on what we dont have in the first place… and we dont have peace if we believe we are hanging mid-air between nothingness, the abyss and the Hands of Mercy.
Shalom brother.
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
Hi GraceDK,
I’m sorry, I thought that you were familiar with Saint John of the Cross. I would like to recommend - Dark Night of the Soul - St. John of the Cross, it is a great book.
Peace
- Status