Is it sinful to buy things through the mail in order to avoid sales tax?

[theguidedheart]

In the Apologist’s forum today, Michelle Arnold answered a question on the possible sinfulness of avoiding sales tax by saying: “Deliberately choosing to avoid paying legitimate expenses is a form of dishonesty and stealing, petty though the expense might be.” The question involved a food order placed as take-out (tax exempt) but intended to be eaten at the restaurant (which would have been taxed).

The law today exempts most interstate purchases from sales tax unless the business has a presence in the recipient’s state. So, I can go to the local Barnes & Noble and buy a book for full list price and pay a sales tax on it, or I can order it from Amazon for maybe 1/3 off, and pay no sales tax to boot. I would never have thought there was a moral problem with that, but now I wonder . . . .

Considering what alot of our sales taxes go to … I would say you may be doing a positive thing!

Peace

 

[melensdad]

I know that I can be a blunt jerk, but let me say it this way. If you buy from the internet to INTENTIONALLY avoid sales taxes then you are stealing from all your neighbors and everyone else in your state. All of us pay sales tax on items and those tax dollars are used to fund a lot of projects, some we like, some we don’t. But if you don’t pay your fair share, then I am paying a disproportionate share. So you are simply transferring your burden onto others.

Also, it should be pointed out that you are breaking the law. With the exception of New Hampshire and perhaps one other state, all states have “use” taxes. A “use” tax is equal to the sale tax rate and is legally levied on all goods purchased over the internet, through mail order, etc. By law, you are required to pay ‘use’ tax on any item you don’t pay sales tax on.

It should also be noted that the internet sellers who claim they are selling you “tax free” are, in fact, lying to you. The only thing that happens is that the legal burden of collecting the tax has shifted from them to you. But the tax is still due.

*DISCLAIMER: I am not an IRS official. I am not a certified accountant. However I have been used as an “expert witness” in federal trials involving multi-national corporations and have testified as an “expert witness” on cross-border tax issues, excise tax issues, and issues of bootlegging in multiple states and cities. I have testified at the request of Senators, Representatives and also at the request of paid lobbiests on this issue.

*​

I try to keep my personal opinions apart from the legal issues. Legally you are wrong. The laws are very clear on that. It is clearly tax evasion. Morally I would have to say you are clearly wrong. It is theft, it is also shirking your duty. Let’s not forget: *Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s . . .

*We don’t have to like giving to Caesar, but legally and morally we must do so. I cannot say that I have paid every tax dollar due for internet sales, I don’t know that my record keeping is that good. I don’t think anyone can say any different from a practical stance. But specifically to buy from the internet with the purposeful intent of avoiding taxes is clearly wrong on many levels.

 

[BobP123]

Well, one way to avoid this issue is to include the sales tax as part of the price of the item. There are countries which do this already and I don’t see why it shouldn’t happen in the states. It’s hardship enough to pay the tax but to have to do the paperwork in addition seems to really be “piling it on.”

Then one can argue that all taxation is theft and this (price includes tax) is just a form of deception.

 

[melensdad]

Well, one way to avoid this issue is to include the sales tax as part of the price of the item. There are countries which do this already and I don’t see why it shouldn’t happen in the states. It’s hardship enough to pay the tax but to have to do the paperwork in addition seems to really be “piling it on.”

Then one can argue that all taxation is theft and this (price includes tax) is just a form of deception.

Bob I think you would be turning our entire tax code on its head. Remember that we do not have a NATIONAL sales tax. We live in a Republic of States (at least those of us in the US). Each state is a soverign entity that can levy taxes, or not, as it requires. They can do so in whatever fashion they choose, and that can include sales, use, property, excise, etc taxes.

To do as you suggest would remove the authority of the individual state’s rights, add a layer of red tape, and probably result in a far less efficient use of tax dollars as the total cost of collection would likely increase under a Republic form of government like we have in the United States. Under other forms of government the burden may be easier to collect and redistribute.

I would seriously doubt if too many of the individual states would subrogate their authority on sales tax to the Federal authorities.

 

[BobP123]

We don’t have to like giving to Caesar, but legally and morally we must do so.

Hmmm, wonder what Congressman Ron Paul would say about that.

 

[melensdad]

Hmmm, wonder what Congressman Ron Paul would say about that.

Well I happen to like much of the Libertarian stance that Rep. Paul stands for and supports and I’d suggest that he would suggest that he would find SOME legitimate uses for taxation. All Libertarians believe in taxation, however they (we/I) also believe in local control, minimal government, etc. The fact of what he would argue, and I would often agree with, are the legitimate uses of taxation would be the question. Still, in principle, Representative Paul supports the concept of local, state and federal taxation.

 

[melensdad]

The law today exempts most interstate purchases from sales tax unless the business has a presence in the recipient’s state.

If the government wanted to tax online companies, it would tax them, or outlaw them. It’s fine to order things online to save money.

I’m sorry but you are simply wrong and giving illegal advice.
rlg09486:

Around here, if I get my dishwasher shipped directly from an appliance store in Oregon, they will charge me local Washington sales tax. They get around this by using a middle-man. If I (technically…the store does it for me) hire a guy to pick-up the dishwasher at the store and deliver it to me, there is no tax . . . and in a different post wrote . . . Anyway, the point of the thread is asking if it is sinful for me to do so. I would say “no.” Looking for a deal is not sinful. If you find your deal in Washington, great! We welcome your business

You are confusing FEDERAL LAWS with STATE LAWS. There is no federal sales tax. The federal government cannot legally mandate that a sale that occurs in a remote state collect the tax of the state it delivers goods to. However if there is an in-state presence of a business entity then the state laws require the collection of sales tax.

The various concepts or schemes, like hiring a middleman/delivery agent, etc do nothing but shift the tax burden from the seller to the buyer. That is when sales tax is magically transformed into use tax.

However, there is still ‘use’ tax applied to those sales. See my more detailed post above. But intentionally avoiding taxes is not the same as looking for a “deal” it is tax evasion. The law is very very clear about this. New Hampshire is the exception, it does not charge its residents sales or use taxes.

JimG:

I don’t get it. Food is taxable when you buy it in the restaurant, becomes tax free when you step over the threshhold of the front door?

Again this is a state issue. Many states tax the sales of groceries, drugs, etc. Many states do not. It simply depends on the state you live in as to what they choose to tax.

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**There is a HUGE amount of MISINFORMATION in this thread about taxes. Most of you are EVADING taxes, breaking the law. And dare I say committing a sin too.

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**

 

[BobP123]

Nope, we all pay our fair share here. I haven’t read any posts that say otherwise.

By the way, is anyone planning to move or retire to another state to avoid paying taxes?

 

[melensdad]

Nope, we all pay our fair share here. I haven’t read any posts that say otherwise.

I do realize that all advice given in this thread is THEORETICAL and HYPOTHETICAL in its nature. However the laws are very clear on what should/must be done in a REAL LIFE scenario. We must all remember that “ignorance of the law is no excuse” and while many may not know, or fully understand, the law, the law is very clear on this issue. The ‘tax’ issues are State issues, and other than New Hampshire, every state has both “sales” and “use” taxes that are levied on ALL consumer purchased of durable goods. Some states further tax non-durables, consumables, etc such as drugs and food and those states do have both “sales” and “use” taxes.

By the way, is anyone planning to move or retire to another state to avoid paying taxes?

There is a HUGE difference (from the legal perspective) to avoiding taxes and evading taxes. Again, this is a mixture of state and federal issues. But to move to a low/no tax state, and still pay that state’s required taxes is morally and fiscally sound, as well as being legal.

 

[OneAugustKnight]

In Virginia, we have a “Use Tax”. It basically asks you to send in the sales tax from purchases that you didn’t pay sales tax on.

There is a $100 exemption for mail order catalog sales ( ) but you supposedly have to pay the rest, like for online purchases.

But, some Internet retailers with a physical presence in VA already collect it, so it’s a big hassle.

The state wants it’s money any way it can get it.

My state has something like that as well. Only in this state, even if you pay sales tax in another state, you have to pay sales tax on the item again to this state. Obviously this is so far reaching and ridiculuous that you can just forget about it for the knick-knacks you buy on vacation and such.

The burden is starting to fall on the merchants to follow the sales tax requirements, anyways.

I think my state is just weird about this because they don’t want people crossing the state line to make huge purchases when the adjacent state has a no sales tax day.

That and you get to pay sales tax on your car again when you move to my state and register your vehicle! People love that
$500+ surprise!

 

[JimG]

I doubt that everyone is evading taxes and engaging in sin. In the first place, many–actually most–people simply cannot figure out tax forms. That’s why they go to a commercial tax preparer and pay exorbitant amounts to have relatively simple forms prepared for them.

My brother prepares all his own taxes, on paper, trying to follow the instructions. Nevertheless, misunderstanding one line of the instructions on his state form caused the state to bill him, years later, for back taxes and penalties. OK, now he understands that line. He wasn’t trying to evade state tax.

As to the use tax, it has only come into existence in Kansas in the past 2 years. As I said,most people can barely take care of their tax forms, yet the state expects them to track the (uncharged) state sales tax for online purchases throughout the year and tack it on to their yearly tax form? Is everyone that good at recordkeeping? As internet purchasing becomes more popular, this is going to become more and more burdensome.

 

[RobHom]

First, this is not a subject I would get very excited over…for the simple reason that the tax structures of every state are probably different…so what happens one place doesn’t happen in another.

One poster mentioned that Virginia has a use tax, and a $100 exemption. Another said that take out in one state was tax exempt.

I live in FL… All restaurant food, eat in, take out…its all taxed. FL has a use tax, period. If it crosses the state line into FL and here I’m going to quote a Department of Revenue Official in Tallahassee: “The state does not care if it comes across the line on a turtle’s back, its taxable”. No exemptions.

The only issue in FL is those people who do not legally make the effort to pay the use tax.

I don’t altogether see it as a moral issue so much as a legal or criminal issue… Christ said “Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s”…and he was talking about taxes… thus he was talking about the law of man. But I guess…it could be a moral issue.

Pay the taxes…its easier that way.

 

[Transformer]

Also, it should be pointed out that you are breaking the law. With the exception of New Hampshire and perhaps one other state, all states have “use” taxes. A “use” tax is equal to the sale tax rate and is legally levied on all goods purchased over the internet, through mail order, etc. By law, you are required to pay ‘use’ tax on any item you don’t pay sales tax on.

Assuming you’re totally correct here, melensdad, then purchasing online with the explicit intent of evading taxes would indeed be a form of theft, and sinful. Still, I dispute that such an act would be sinful if internet purchases really were tax free (I suppose, for this discussion, we can talk about such purchases made in New Hampshire).

If New Hampshire says I don’t have to pay taxes on internet purchases, then I don’t have to pay taxes on internet purchases. The amount of money I lawfully owe is $0.00; I’m not shirking any responsibility or cost onto anyone. The cost isn’t my responsibility, and never was; so, not sinful. If saving money in this way is immoral even when it isn’t unlawful, then the same standards apply to every other legal way of saving money via tax returns or even simple lower-cost purchases. Technically, in some sense, I’m costing someone else something more, but it isn’t my responsibility and I’m not guilty of any sin.

God bless.

 

[rlg94086]

I believe every state collects the Use tax.

In the last few years, I have lived in Colorado ('98-'02), Oregon ('02-'04), California ('04-'06) and Washington ('06-present); and this is the first I ever heard of a “use tax.”

I just googled to find out what I have been missing.

In Colorado, the company who sells the goods is responsible for collecting the use tax, and the buyer is not allowed to pay the municipality directly. So, no problem.

In California, I was supposed to pay a use tax…had no idea. I’m not going to go back and try to fix it.

In Washington, we also have a use tax. I didn’t pay it last year, but I will do my best to pay it this year.

I didn’t look up Oregon, because I’m assuming they don’t have a use tax, since they don’t have a sales tax.

What an absolutely stupid way to handle tax collection!

 

[BobP123]

I don’t altogether see it as a moral issue so much as a legal or criminal issue… Christ said “Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s”…and he was talking about taxes… thus he was talking about the law of man. But I guess…it could be a moral issue.

But you have to define what really belongs to Ceasar in the first place. Supposedly in capitalist countries, property belongs to the individuals and not government taxing bodies. Yet in the U.S. one is taxed on his property by the local governments and it is taken away from him if he fails to pay the taxes. Has one have the freedom NOT to pay his tax? I don’t think so. Thus it doesn’t become a moral issue as there is no free will involved, but I’m sure to get some disagreement here.

And to melensdad, I can’t say for certain whether it’s morally wrong or not to avoid paying your “fair share” (whatever that is) but I do know it’s morally wrong to pass judgement on individuals, especially on those posters who care enough to do what they believe to be fair and honest.

 

[melensdad]

"JimG:

I doubt that everyone is evading taxes and engaging in sin.

Jim, I believe that almost everyone is UNINTENTIONALLY evading taxes. I don’t believe that all are engaging in sin. For example if you are not intentionally buying to evade taxes, or if you inadvertantly don’t pay all of the ‘use’ tax then I would suggest that is not a sin.

Remember the original post asked if it was a sin to INTENTIONALLY evade taxes by buying over the internet.

Assuming you’re totally correct here, melensdad, then purchasing online with the explicit intent of evading taxes would indeed be a form of theft, and sinful. Still, I dispute that such an act would be sinful if internet purchases really were tax free (I suppose, for this discussion, we can talk about such purchases made in New Hampshire).

If New Hampshire says I don’t have to pay taxes on internet purchases, then I don’t have to pay taxes on internet purchases. The amount of money I lawfully owe is $0.00; I’m not shirking any responsibility or cost onto anyone. The cost isn’t my responsibility, and never was; so, not sinful. If saving money in this way is immoral even when it isn’t unlawful, then the same standards apply to every other legal way of saving money via tax returns or even simple lower-cost purchases. Technically, in some sense, I’m costing someone else something more, but it isn’t my responsibility and I’m not guilty of any sin.

Where you would err, in the eyes of the law, is with your mistaken assumption that New Hampshire, or any other state, has the authority over your home state, with regard to taxes.

You pay taxes (‘use’ or ‘sales’) to your home state, not to the out of state mail-order or internet company. Your home state is the one the levies the tax, it is the entity with the taxing authority on internet sales. Consequently your argument about owing $0.00 tax dollars is legally wrong. Very clearly legally wrong.

Please understand that the USA is a republic of individual states in the eyes of the federal law. Each state has the authority and the right to levy its own taxes and set its own requirements. Similarly, no state has the authority to levy taxes against citizens of a different state when the sales transactions are occurring out of state (internet sales). So N.H. tax laws only affect N.H. residents.

Your argument is simply trying to justify a wrongful action. You are using illogical statements and you are misinterpreting existing LEGAL tax laws.

But you have to define what really belongs to Ceasar in the first place. . .

The state you live in defines what belongs to Caesar.

And to melensdad, I can’t say for certain whether it’s morally wrong or not to avoid paying your “fair share” (whatever that is) but I do know it’s morally wrong to pass judgement on individuals, especially on those posters who care enough to do what they believe to be fair and honest.

Please carefully reread what I have written. I have consistently stated that those who INTENTIONALLY try to evade taxes are the issue. Not the ones who inadvertently evade them. There is a huge amount of ignorance on tax laws. If you don’t know you are breaking the law, and if you mistakenly thought that you were legal then you could not be sinning, but you still are clearly breaking the law. Just because you believe it to be “fair and honest” does not make it legal or fair or honest in the eyes of the law.

But I would still say that if someone INTENTIONALLY evades a legal tax for the purpose of evading that tax, then that person, in fact stealing from Caesar and shifting the tax burden to others. This would be sinful.

 

[otjm]

I believe every state collects the Use tax.

Nope. some do, some don’t.

Taxation cost someone some tea, once upon a time. Trying to figure your way through the tax codes is not impossible, but fast approaching the impossible. It is a full employment contract for both the people in the tax department, and the accounting field.

Maybe some of you folks out there need to think about a tea party?

There are three general areas of tasxation: taxes on wages/income, taxes on real property, and taxes on sales/purchases.

But the real issue may not be the taxes, so much, as a true accountability for how the tax money is spent…

 

[ChinaDad]

The law today exempts most interstate purchases from sales tax unless the business has a presence in the recipient’s state. So, I can go to the local Barnes & Noble and buy a book for full list price and pay a sales tax on it, or I can order it from Amazon for maybe 1/3 off, and pay no sales tax to boot. I would never have thought there was a moral problem with that, but now I wonder . . . .

The law does exempt these purchases from “sales” tax, but they are taxable under “use” tax laws. Basically, if you purchase something exempt from sales tax, and you are not tax exempt, then you are supposed to report that you purchased it to the State you live and pay them because you “used” whatever it was you purchased. (As far as I know, Use tax rates are always the same as sales tax rates).

I have a real problem answering the original question though. The premise is that these and all other taxes are for the benefit of society. The bible says we are to tithe 10%. I pay a lot more than 10% in taxes. Our politians waste most everything I pay in taxes and they always want more. So why should I give them amounts I believe they are going to waste, and not going to use properly for the benefit of those that the “premise” of taxes say it was meant for?

Consequently, my conscience is clear by not paying sales tax or use tax for items I’ve purchased over the internet or by mail order.

 

[JimG]

Similarly, no state has the authority to levy taxes against citizens of a different state when the sales transactions are occurring out of state (internet sales). So N.H. tax laws only affect N.H. residents.

OK, so no state has the authority to levy taxes against the citizens of a different state for out of state transactions.

I’m a citizen of Kansas, and they want me to pay a use tax on something I buy from Land’s End or Amazon located out of my state–an internet sale. Would the same thing apply if I travel to New Jersey or Michigan or California and buy things in those states and bring them back? Why would the KS use tax apply only to items I buy on-line or by catalog, but not to things I buy in person? Each of those transactions could be occurring in the exact same state.

If I’m there in person, no use tax, if I’m there by computer, there’s a use tax.

 

[Melissa]

I don’t know where you live, but I live in Mich. When we file our state tax returns there is a question which requires a specific answer as to whether you purchased anything online during the year for which you didn’t pay sales tax. You are required to declare these items. If you fail to do so, I’d say that you are indeed sinning in the lie told and in the taxes stolen. Do other states have similar declarations on their tax returns?

Yes, NYS has that also (what ticks me is that they say that if you answer no in consecutive years, you up your chances of an audit … gee, sorry–I really DON’T shop on-line … now how am I supposed to prove a negative?)