Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?

[chessmane4e5]

Re: St. Leonard’s sermon - it’s things like that which strengthen my resolve to leave the Catholic Church. Such a sad, degraded view of God’s creation. Such a sad, joyless faith.

Why? Jesus said, the path is wide but the gate is narrow.

And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:23-24)

It is sad. It is sad that there are so many that do not want to embrace the Catholic Faith and therefore be saved.

 

[TedDC]

Why? Jesus said, the path is wide but the gate is narrow.

And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luke 13:23-24)

It is sad. It is sad that there are so many that do not want to embrace the Catholic Faith and therefore be saved.

What’s sad is the sanctimonious, condescending, harshly judgmental, you’re-going-to-hell-and-I’m-not attitude exuded by so many postings in this forum. Is that an inherent feature of Catholicism?

 

[prettylarge]

What’s sad is the sanctimonious, condescending, harshly judgmental, you’re-going-to-hell-and-I’m-not attitude exuded by so many postings in this forum. Is that an inherent feature of Catholicism?

I think that is actually most Christian sects. The Buddha said to never trust someone that says that their religion is the only way to salvation or enlightenment. After reading the posts on this forum, I have to agree with him.

EDIT: Honestly though, the priests that I have met and the people that I would call good Catholics are not like they are on this board. I told one priest (a jesuit, who was great friends my Grandfather who was one of the greatest people I have ever known, and one of the greatest Catholics I have ever known) that I didn’t agree with some of the rituals of the Catholic church. I told him that I was exploring other religions as well. He told me straight up “Keep exploring other religions, the Catholic Church doesn’t have all the answers.” He also said that if Jesus saw the teachings on going to mass every week he might say “uhh, I think you guys are missing the point.” This is the type of priest that I want to talk to and get my morality and theology from. This is the type of priest that I would trust with questions of ethics. Yet some people on this board have told me he should be excommunicated because he does not believe in every detail of the Catholic Church. Then again some people think watching TV is a sin, and if you use a condom with your wife and don’t repent you are going to go to hell.

Either I am completely missing the point, or the great majority of the people on this board are completely missing the point. I can’t tell you which, but I think there is a lot more to worry about in this world than a piece of latex that stops someone from getting pregnant. I like to look at other religions and find the common teachings in all the religions I look at. I have yet to find a religion that does not say you should treat others with love and respect. So, to me, that is the truth in all religion. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Everything else is just details.

 

[nsper7]

Someone who follows the rules, tries to avoid getting arrested and does nothing more will never win any “Citizen of the Year” awards. The same applies to our spiritual life. Also if your goal is to do just enough to avoid Hell, won’t you constantly worry that you are not doing enough? What if God grades on a curve, and expects more from those who have more?

How much are we supposed to do? And the idea of God grading a curve would go against Church teaching on the nature of sin, would it not? In truth, I feel little desire to please Him. Since coming to faith (first as an Engangelical Fundamentalist Protestant and eventually coming to the True Church, Catholicism), it has been one psychological mess after another. Who wants to please the cause of their torments?

It is interesting to note that, although I dealt with OCD as a child (hand-washing and that sort of stuff), it ameliorated when I hit a certain age. It came back in full and destructive force after coming to faith.

As I mentioned before, if I ever came to the full belief that either:

A) The universalist heretics have it right and Hell does not exist
B) Hell is not so bad (compare it to Dante’s views of the Limbo of the Infants, a place of natural, but not supernatural, good)

then I would cease to care so much I think. It would be like a great and unending pressure relieved. Of course, both those ideas are heretical/heterodox according to the Church and since I believe the Church is in the possession of the fullness of Truth, I would not think of adopting such views since heresy puts you on the fast track to Hell.

In the end, you just proved my point. Even if He does grade on a curve, which I suppose He could since He is God, it still comes down to avoiding Hell.

Rather than approaching it in the negative way of “getting a passing grade” and following just the minimum requirements, take the positive approach. Ask yourself: “What do I need to do to live my life according to the Gospel of Jesus? Is my life directed toward Him, or toward avoiding punishment?”

Again, why should I direct my life towards Him who points the gun of caliber “eternal damnation” at my head? A terrorist may hold you hostage and you will do what they say, but you will not direct your life towards pleasing them anymore than is necessary to avoid a bullet to the brain–if one does go beyond that, it is usually considered a psychological problem (Stockholm syndrome).

See, Hell and God’s love is a real paradox I think. After all, if you want people to truly love you, then it must be without coercion. Think on human terms: a bad way to way to find a good and loving wife (I speak from a male’s point-of-view here since I am male) would be to go up to some woman you like, put a gun to her head and say, “Marry me or I blow your brains out.”

So it seems to me to speak of Hell and love for God creates a problematic situation. It would seem the truly honest response after on believes in the Catholic faith is one of fatalistic resignation, not love.

 

[nsper7]

There had been very little positives I can discuss when discussing my faith and any positives that might exist (i.e. improved social circle of friends) could be found in other areas. I truly wish the Church were wrong on Hell, but I do not believe it is–I am not a heretic.

It is almost like I want to tell God, “I believe in You and Your Church and I fear Hell, but if I for a moment though Hell did not exist or was not as horrible as You and Your Church have taught, I would want nothing to do with You.”

Don’t confuse my words with apostasy or heresy, because I do sincerely believe in God and His Church and in Hell.

 

[prettylarge]

How much are we supposed to do? And the idea of God grading a curve would go against Church teaching on the nature of sin, would it not? In truth, I feel little desire to please Him. Since coming to faith (first as an Engangelical Fundamentalist Protestant and eventually coming to the True Church, Catholicism), it has been one psychological mess after another. Who wants to please the cause of their torments?

It is interesting to note that, although I dealt with OCD as a child (hand-washing and that sort of stuff), it ameliorated when I hit a certain age. It came back in full and destructive force after coming to faith.

As I mentioned before, if I ever came to the full belief that either:

A) The universalist heretics have it right and Hell does not exist
B) Hell is not so bad (compare it to Dante’s views of the Limbo of the Infants, a place of natural, but not supernatural, good)

then I would cease to care so much I think. It would be like a great and unending pressure relieved. Of course, both those ideas are heretical/heterodox according to the Church and since I believe the Church is in the possession of the fullness of Truth, I would not think of adopting such views since heresy puts you on the fast track to Hell.

In the end, you just proved my point. Even if He does grade on a curve, which I suppose He could since He is God, it still comes down to avoiding Hell.

Again, why should I direct my life towards Him who points the gun of caliber “eternal damnation” at my head? A terrorist may hold you hostage and you will do what they say, but you will not direct your life towards pleasing them anymore than is necessary to avoid a bullet to the brain–if one does go beyond that, it is usually considered a psychological problem (Stockholm syndrome).

See, Hell and God’s love is a real paradox I think. After all, if you want people to truly love you, then it must be without coercion. Think on human terms: a bad way to way to find a good and loving wife (I speak from a male’s point-of-view here since I am male) would be to go up to some woman you like, put a gun to her head and say, “Marry me or I blow your brains out.”

So it seems to me to speak of Hell and love for God creates a problematic situation. It would seem the truly honest response after on believes in the Catholic faith is one of fatalistic resignation, not love.

These are the reasons I don’t believe in hell. Basically a loving God could not send people to eternal suffering IMO. I do think you should probably change your outlook on life though if fear of hell is what is actually judging your actions. Are you legitimately saying that you would be a meaner person or be less helpful if you somehow knew that hell was not real?

 

[prettylarge]

There had been very little positives I can discuss when discussing my faith and any positives that might exist (i.e. improved social circle of friends) could be found in other areas. I truly wish the Church were wrong on Hell, but I do not believe it is–I am not a heretic.

It is almost like I want to tell God, “I believe in You and Your Church and I fear Hell, but if I for a moment though Hell did not exist or was not as horrible as You and Your Church have taught, I would want nothing to do with You.”

Don’t confuse my words with apostasy or heresy, because I do sincerely believe in God and His Church and in Hell.

The indoctrination of the church has clouded your mind in my opinion. If you do not see anything positive about your faith, there is something wrong. I don’t believe in hell, and I don’t consider myself a heretic. Why should you? Then again, if it ends up making you a worse person not to believe in hell, maybe you should keep in your stubborn ways.

 

[chessmane4e5]

What’s sad is the sanctimonious, condescending, harshly judgmental, you’re-going-to-hell-and-I’m-not attitude exuded by so many postings in this forum. Is that an inherent feature of Catholicism?

If any Catholics says “You are going to hell” they hopefully mean, “If you continue your actions you are running the risk of going to hell.”

The Catholic church teaches that only God knows who is going to heaven or hell. If someone tells someone they are going to hell for sure, no way around it, or that someone in the past who is dead went to hell, that is Judging that persons soul, and is a sin.

Judging someones action in context and saying that action will lead to hell is different and often misinterpreted.

 

[chessmane4e5]

There had been very little positives I can discuss when discussing my faith and any positives that might exist (i.e. improved social circle of friends) could be found in other areas. I truly wish the Church were wrong on Hell, but I do not believe it is–I am not a heretic.

It is almost like I want to tell God, “I believe in You and Your Church and I fear Hell, but if I for a moment though Hell did not exist or was not as horrible as You and Your Church have taught, I would want nothing to do with You.”

Don’t confuse my words with apostasy or heresy, because I do sincerely believe in God and His Church and in Hell.

It is not wrong to wish that hell does not exist, but that is what heaven is, that is paradise. We wish for that because we know in our hearts that is what God wants for us in the end.

There are different ways to live.

Love God and follow His commands out of love.
Fear God and follow His command so you do not go to hell.

I think (correct me if I am wrong) that each way is okay, but the first seems much more pleasant while the second is probably actually easier to follow because of our fallen nature.

I would just suggest praying and never lose faith in God or His Church.

 

[prettylarge]

It is not wrong to wish that hell does not exist, but that is what heaven is, that is paradise. We wish for that because we know in our hearts that is what God wants for us in the end.

There are different ways to live.

Love God and follow His commands out of love.
Fear God and follow His command so you do not go to hell.

I think (correct me if I am wrong) that each way is okay, but the first seems much more pleasant while the second is probably actually easier to follow because of our fallen nature.

I would just suggest praying and never lose faith in God or His Church.

I personally think the second is completely useless and misses the point of Jesus’ teachings. Motivations behind actions are VERY important. If you help someone move out of love and just wanting to help your neighbor, it is a good deed. If you help someone move because at a later date you think that maybe you will have sex with them as a result, then its not the same. You are doing the same exact actions, but on different terms. And helping someone move only because you think it might help you have sex with them later is like only following Jesus’ message because you want to go to heaven and not go to hell. I personally think that when you die, you get to the gates of heaven and Jesus doesn’t say “well, you did this bad thing, but then you did this good thing, so you were more good than bad, so you go to heaven.” I think it is more of a question of your intentions and if you actually “get it.” If you truly want to help your fellow man for the sake of doing it, not just because you don’t want to go to hell. In my opinion, if your actions are ONLY to avoid heaven, and you really don’t care about others, you are not actually a good person. In this respect, sometimes I think that atheists have an advantage, because if they are good people as atheists, there is no doubt it is because of love for their fellow man, not being scared of eternal damnation.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Dear Nsper7,

We can never know how many people go to heaven, nor should we. We do know from Church teaching that hell is a real and present danger. We also know that Jesus spoke of a highway to hell and a narrow path to eternal life. However, have the numbers saved increased since the advent of the Christian era? Almost certainly. By how much? Impossible to say.

The problem with your question remains one of attitude of heart. If an man and a woman marry, and the next morning the man sits down with his wife and asks her for the bare minimum she requires of him, if she is to stay with him, then she could very fairly assume that he never loved her at all. Similarly with God.

God asks that we love him totally; but we fail to again and again and again. But as long as we have obeyed the commandments and not fallen into original sin (that is sin amounting to a willful rejection of God’s love), then we will be saved and that which causes us to fail will be purified in purgatory. We try, we fail, and we try again - but our heart’s desire is still to love and to serve God.

The problem you are experiencing is that you don’t wish to try anymore. You wish to get by loving God as little as possible. This is the epitomy of being lukewarm.

“I know all about you: how you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were one or the other, but since you are neither, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth. You say to yourself ‘I am rich’, ‘I have made my fortune, and have everything I want’, never realising that you are wretchedly and pitiably poor, and blind and naked too. I warn you, buy from me the gold that has been tested in fire to make you really rich, and white robes to clothe you and cover your shameful nakedness, and eye ointment to put on your eyes so that you are able to see, I am the one who reproves and disciplines all those he loves: so repent in real earnest. Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. If one of you hears me calling and opens the door, I will come in and share his meal, side by side with him. Those who prove victorious I allow to share my throne, just as I was victorious myself and took my place with my Father on his throne. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.” Revelation 3.14-22

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Dear Nsper7,

We can never know how many people go to heaven, nor should we. We do know from Church teaching that hell is a real and present danger. We also know that Jesus spoke of a highway to hell and a narrow path to eternal life. However, have the numbers saved increased since the advent of the Christian era? Almost certainly. By how much? Impossible to say.

The problem with your question remains one of attitude of heart. If an man and a woman marry, and the next morning the man sits down with his wife and asks her for the bare minimum she requires of him, if she is to stay with him, then she could very fairly assume that he never loved her at all. Similarly with God.

God asks that we love him totally; but we fail to again and again and again. But as long as we have obeyed the commandments and not fallen into original sin (that is sin amounting to a willful rejection of God’s love), then we will be saved and that which causes us to fail will be purified in purgatory. We try, we fail, and we try again - but our heart’s desire is still to love and to serve God.

The problem you are experiencing is that you don’t wish to try anymore. You wish to get by loving God as little as possible. This is the epitomy of being lukewarm.

“I know all about you: how you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were one or the other, but since you are neither, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth. You say to yourself ‘I am rich’, ‘I have made my fortune, and have everything I want’, never realising that you are wretchedly and pitiably poor, and blind and naked too. I warn you, buy from me the gold that has been tested in fire to make you really rich, and white robes to clothe you and cover your shameful nakedness, and eye ointment to put on your eyes so that you are able to see, I am the one who reproves and disciplines all those he loves: so repent in real earnest. Look, I am standing at the door, knocking. If one of you hears me calling and opens the door, I will come in and share his meal, side by side with him. Those who prove victorious I allow to share my throne, just as I was victorious myself and took my place with my Father on his throne. If anyone has ears to hear, let him listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches.” Revelation 3.14-22

 

[nsper7]

These are the reasons I don’t believe in hell. Basically a loving God could not send people to eternal suffering IMO. I do think you should probably change your outlook on life though if fear of hell is what is actually judging your actions. Are you legitimately saying that you would be a meaner person or be less helpful if you somehow knew that hell was not real?

No, I’d be a less obsessive-compulsive person and I would care less about my faith and “pleasing God”, but I think I would still be a basically nice person and such–I mean, I like people and I like people to like me (I am not a hermit or a curmudgeon).

The indoctrination of the church has clouded your mind in my opinion. If you do not see anything positive about your faith, there is something wrong. I don’t believe in hell, and I don’t consider myself a heretic. Why should you? Then again, if it ends up making you a worse person not to believe in hell, maybe you should keep in your stubborn ways.

What you have advocated, that Hell does not exist, is heresy.

I personally think the second is completely useless and misses the point of Jesus’ teachings. Motivations behind actions are VERY important. If you help someone move out of love and just wanting to help your neighbor, it is a good deed. If you help someone move because at a later date you think that maybe you will have sex with them as a result, then its not the same. You are doing the same exact actions, but on different terms. And helping someone move only because you think it might help you have sex with them later is like only following Jesus’ message because you want to go to heaven and not go to hell. I personally think that when you die, you get to the gates of heaven and Jesus doesn’t say “well, you did this bad thing, but then you did this good thing, so you were more good than bad, so you go to heaven.” I think it is more of a question of your intentions and if you actually “get it.” If you truly want to help your fellow man for the sake of doing it, not just because you don’t want to go to hell. In my opinion, if your actions are ONLY to avoid heaven, and you really don’t care about others, you are not actually a good person. In this respect, sometimes I think that atheists have an advantage, because if they are good people as atheists, there is no doubt it is because of love for their fellow man, not being scared of eternal damnation.

I think you make an unfair comparison. Being motivated to do a good deed because you want sex is sinful because desiring sex with anyone other than your spouse is a sinful desire. Being motivated due to fear of Hell would not be sinful because desiring to avoid Hell is not a sinful desire. See the difference?

The problem with your question remains one of attitude of heart. If an man and a woman marry, and the next morning the man sits down with his wife and asks her for the bare minimum she requires of him, if she is to stay with him, then she could very fairly assume that he never loved her at all. Similarly with God.

Again, your comparison fails. We can assume this husband and wife are married because they truly love and desire each other, not because one is threatening the other with horrendous torture and suffering if they refuse to marry them.

The only comparison would be the husband who married is wife because she threatened to send him to a concentration camp (maybe she is related to Hitler or Pol Pot or something) if he didn’t marry her. But God is worse because whereas even the extreme horrors of Auschwitz or the gulags or Pol Pot’s killing fields eventually ended (the prisoner died, they escaped, they were liberated, etc.), but Hell is endless with no hope of escape or liberation.

The problem you are experiencing is that you don’t wish to try anymore. You wish to get by loving God as little as possible. This is the epitomy of being lukewarm.

Remember my situation though: my faith has always been based on fear. When does fear ever motivate one to do anything more than the least amount possible to avoid what they fear?

The problem you are experiencing is that you don’t wish to try anymore. You wish to get by loving God as little as possible. This is the epitomy of being lukewarm.

At what point does lukewarmness become a mortal sin?

 

[nsper7]

See, you’re proving my point more and more: the motivation to go past lukewarm faith is fear of Hell, right?

Why should I care about God besides fear of Hell? If you answer that to only care because of fear of Hell will cause you go to Hell sort of proves my point, doesn’t it?

EDIT: Also, you could argue I fall into the ‘cold’ realm Jesus talked about. After all, I believe and do care, but there is a certain anger attached because of the fear of Hell motivate.

 

[nsper7]

I am sorry for getting almost melodramatic in my diatribes. It is like I work myself up and then get angry and frustrated.

I realize, there have been many good things about my faith, especially since becoming Catholic, because I do love the Church and I love that we can talk to Our Mother and the Saints. I do love the Sacraments, even though I have trouble with Confession (Scrupulosity-related). I love the Mass and enjoy the hymns that are often sung.

It’s like I waver between anger towards God, but also love/good feelings towards God. It confuses and frustrates me.

 

[Kathrin]

A few thoughts on this thread.

One thing that came to my mind is this thing about keeping the commandments not for the commandments’ sake, but because they are GOOD. That is: We don’t love God because it is a commandment, but: We follow the commandments BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD.

When I went through RCIA the priest there talked about faith being like a growing up thing. First, like kids, we follow the rules because they are given to us.
Then we kind of grow up, and understand the rules, we live them because they are GOOD. We are good because we feel it is the right thing to do.

Then the question of whether something is the minimum or not becomes unimportant, because we do it out of LOVE.
Not because we have to, but because we want to.

The second thing I wanted to say something to is this Bible passage about doing the commandments and lacking one thing. I have thought of this before too! : When Jesus said “You lack one thing”, doesn’t that then also mean the man lacks it in order to go to Heaven?

Then the third thing. Very important. I know about OCD. I am a very very scrupulous person myself, and people who are scrupulous tend to do TOO MUCH rather than too little. So other rules count for them. We have to be careful we don’t overdo it. So if somebody who has OCD/scrupulosity does the mimimum because otherwise he knows he will totally overdo it, that is something else than when somebody does the mimimum out of… laziness, or whatever.

Finally, just thinking: I don’t think you do the mimimum. Coming here and asking this question, thinking about things like this… is already something too.

Kathrin

 

[nsper7]

The second thing I wanted to say something to is this Bible passage about doing the commandments and lacking one thing. I have thought of this before too! : When Jesus said “You lack one thing”, doesn’t that then also mean the man lacks it in order to go to Heaven?

It depends on which Gospel you get the dialogue out of (read Matthew 19:16-22, Mark 10:17-22, Luke 18:18-23). In the Matthew passage, Jesus makes a distinction between what is required to ‘inherit eternal life’ (to be Saved) versus what is needed to be ‘perfect’. In the Mark and Luke passages, no distinction is made.

If you read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the EVANGELICAL COUNSELS, Church teaching seems to side with the Matthew dialogue (if keeping the Commandments/precepts is required in order to be Saved, keeping the evangelical counsels is necessary to reach a higher state of perfection in this life, but are not strictly necessary for Salvation).

 

[nsper7]

Finally, just thinking: I don’t think you do the mimimum. Coming here and asking this question, thinking about things like this… is already something too.

Well, perhaps the way I phrased the question was incorrect. Perhaps it was more how I phrased prior questions such: Do we need to discern God’s particular will for our lives? That sort of thing.

 

[chessmane4e5]

See, you’re proving my point more and more: the motivation to go past lukewarm faith is fear of Hell, right?

Why should I care about God besides fear of Hell? If you answer that to only care because of fear of Hell will cause you go to Hell sort of proves my point, doesn’t it?

EDIT: Also, you could argue I fall into the ‘cold’ realm Jesus talked about. After all, I believe and do care, but there is a certain anger attached because of the fear of Hell motivate.

You should care about God because He loved you enough to create you in His image. If you chose to disobey Him, then the consequence is eternal hell.

It is only by following God that man can truly be happy. All the things of this world will never fulfill the desires of man heart. We were created to be with God, because of Original Sin, we are forced to live in a world “distant” from God (God is present here, but not in the same sense as when we get to heaven). If your only goal in this life is to avoid hell, then you will probably fail. If your goal is to know God, to follow God, to love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your might, then you will be rewarded with heaven. There is nothing we can do to “earn” our way into heaven, but we are called to follow God’s commands.

 

[nsper7]

Anyway, no one ever answered:

How does one mesh the sermon of St. Leonard of Port-Maurice with the words of St. Maria Faustina? After all, reading St. Maria Faustina’s words help me to see the great love Christ has for us, but a St. Leonard’s Sermon on the Few Number of those Saved is just terrifying (5 out of 30,000 make it to Heaven either directly or through Purgatory).