Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?

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A few thoughts on this thread.

One thing that came to my mind is this thing about keeping the commandments not for the commandments’ sake, but because they are GOOD. That is: We don’t love God because it is a commandment, but: We follow the commandments BECAUSE WE LOVE GOD.

When I went through RCIA the priest there talked about faith being like a growing up thing. First, like kids, we follow the rules because they are given to us.
Then we kind of grow up, and understand the rules, we live them because they are GOOD. We are good because we feel it is the right thing to do.

Then the question of whether something is the minimum or not becomes unimportant, because we do it out of LOVE.
Not because we have to, but because we want to.

Kathrin

I completely agree with this. If you are just following the rules because you are scared of hell you are completely missing the point of Jesus’ teachings.

 

[nsper7]

I completely agree with this. If you are just following the rules because you are scared of hell you are completely missing the point of Jesus’ teachings.

But He mentions Hell a lot more than Heaven. He gives numerous warnings about Hell and the sufferings therein. He does seem to use Hell as a motivator and threat against many people He meets.

 

[nsper7]

Should I maybe spend more time reading the works of St. Faustina instead of say St. Leonard?

 

[Cosmian]

What’s sad is the sanctimonious, condescending, harshly judgmental, you’re-going-to-hell-and-I’m-not attitude exuded by so many postings in this forum. Is that an inherent feature of Catholicism?

I’m glad it’s not just me who thinks so. I’m trying not to be disheartened by these attitudes. It really is a turn off.

I must be a bad Catholic because I think that it’s not so important that you believe the right things. I’d rather treat people the right way and kindly tolerate what I may view as their imperfections. Not in a patronizing way but with charity. We all need love.

 

[baltobetsy]

Should I maybe spend more time reading the works of St. Faustina instead of say St. Leonard?

Good idea. There’s a time and place for everything, and this is probably your time for Faustina. Go for it.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Remember my situation though: my faith has always been based on fear. When does fear ever motivate one to do anything more than the least amount possible to avoid what they fear?

QUOTE]

But I think that you are choosing fear…

Your whole explanation of your situation is based on the idea that Jesus is here placing a gun to everyone’s head saying ‘love me, or else…’. But this image of Jesus has no basis in the teaching of the Church or the writings of the saints. It is though, an image which Satan LOVES to propagate. And it seems to me that if you are determined to cling this image, then you will end up being manipulated by Satan all your life; and the inherent danger of this situation is obvious.

The only way to free yourself is to get-to-know the REAL Jesus and this begins in prayer, especially Eucharistic Adoration, and the sacraments. The choice is yours - you can live your life in the chains of fear, or open yourself up to the freedom which Christ offers.

The latter choice requires courage, but I promise you He will not let you down. If you would choose this path then I would STRONGLY urge you to seek out an experienced spiritual director.

 

[TedDC]

nsper7;6072444:

Remember my situation though: my faith has always been based on fear. When does fear ever motivate one to do anything more than the least amount possible to avoid what they fear?

QUOTE]

But I think that you are choosing fear…

Your whole explanation of your situation is based on the idea that Jesus is here placing a gun to everyone’s head saying ‘love me, or else…’. But this image of Jesus has no basis in the teaching of the Church or the writings of the saints. It is though, an image which Satan LOVES to propagate. And it seems to me that if you are determined to cling this image, then you will end up being manipulated by Satan all your life; and the inherent danger of this situation is obvious.

The only way to free yourself is to get-to-know the REAL Jesus and this begins in prayer, especially Eucharistic Adoration, and the sacraments. The choice is yours - you can live your life in the chains of fear, or open yourself up to the freedom which Christ offers.

The latter choice requires courage, but I promise you He will not let you down. If you would choose this path then I would STRONGLY urge you to seek out an experienced spiritual director.

But in fact fear IS propagated extensively by the Church, and it has a powerful hold on the faithful. Look at how many postings on this forum begin with things like “Is it a mortal sin to…?”, “Will l go to hell if…?”, etc. And see how many members take a barely-disguised glee in informing those poor folks that they are indeed damned. Strictly out of concern for their immortal souls, of course

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

I concede to you that fear has often been abused by some in positions of authority in the Church; but where there is power, there has always been abuse of power. If you look for the negative you will have no problem finding it.

But how many of the saints talk about their faith in the way you do? How many of the saints wax lyrical about loving God because of the threat of hell? How many saints wrote about praying or doing penance because of a gun to their heads?

The examples you are pointing to are from the dwarves of the faith; look instead at the giants. The people who live in fear and are always asking ‘will I go to hell if…?’ are those who are earlier in the journey of the spiritual life, often trying to get things in order in their lives. This is an important stage - but it is not the end of the journey. In some ways they are in the same place as you; but you are asking whether it is virtuous to stand still at the point where you are on the journey. To use St. Teresa’s ‘Interior Castle’ analogy - you are in the courtyard of the castle, but this is a very vulnerable place and you need to move further into the middle of the castle, where our Lord has his throne room.

I have never met a daily mass-goer who spoke of God in these terms. Among the people I know who go to Adoration regularly, I hear only of the love they have of God, and the faith they have in his love to save them from any situation. Sure the saints knew in graphic detail all about Hell - because they lived so close to the truth. But the reality is they loved and trusted God so much more. I think it was St. Teresa of Avila who said she would gladly go to Hell, if that were where Jesus were.

I put it to you that the image you have of God is of a monster. Yet does the Jesus of the gospel sound like a monster?

I tell you my friend; this narrative of God you have can only come from Satan, because it makes God look like a monster and Satan look like a freedom fighter. I urge you to renounce this lie and get to know the God who IS Love incarnate.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Hmm, interesting thread. Can anyone tell me if this too is a minimalist view? It’s true that I accept the Church’s teaching on what are mortal sins and make it a priority to go to Confession (eventually >_>;; ) should I ever fall. However, other than that (and going to Mass on Sundays and Days of Obligation) I don’t really bother doing religious stuff. I don’t do novenas. I’ve only been in an Adoration chapel when someone brings me (usually my mom or one of my aunts) My prayers are most often simple, crude, and short. I don’t pray the Rosary unless I’ve been explicitly obliged. I haven’t watched religious shows since I was thirteen (except for apologetics and stuff regarding social issues/politics as well as exorcism). Heck I don’t even like religious songs much (except for stuff like Gregorian Chant and even my reasons for listening to those aren’t really spiritual).

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Dear Lost Wanderer,

Everybody is at a different stage of the spiritual journey. I didn’t see how old you are, but from your comment about your Mum & Aunt, I am assuming you are still quite young.

Basically, what the Church teaches is that to be in a state of grace - the state one should be in to be surest (we can never be 100% sure, ie. overconfident) of eventual salvation - it is necessary to do all the things you are doing: going to church on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, confessing all mortal sins, receiving communion at least once a year etc.

However, this is just the beginning of the spiritual life and there are a number of reasons for going deeper into the spiritual life. I’ll give you some ones which come to mind.

1. This is the most vulnerable state. St Teresa of Avila describes the interior spiritual life as a crystal glass castle - the aim of the spirtual life is the reach the centre, where God sits enthroned. People at the beginning of the spiritual life are in the outer courtyard, where they are most vulnerable to being tricked and deceived by Satan into falling. To be safe they must flee further into the castle.
2. Even if we go to heaven, if we have not reached a state of perfect holiness in this life, then we will have to suffer purgatory, which is a process of purification which we go through in order to enter heaven.
3. We are not equal in heaven. The amount of love to which we have attained to in this life is fixed in the next life. We will all be fully happy, but some will be more deeply happy than others. St. Therese of Liseaux likened it to a thimble of water and a large jug. Both may be filled, but one contains more than the other. The level of holiness we attain to in this life matters.
4. Jesus promised life to the full in this life. The greatest happiness in this life is found by those who follow Him most closely. The more you follow God’s plan for your life, the more graces he will be able to bestow on you.

Be assured, God is pleased with your faith and worship of him, but be aware that the gift of faith he has given is a gift to unwrap. It is good to be where you are, but be aware that you are on a journey, and for the reasons mentioned, I would encourage you not be simply be content for your spiritual life to stay as it is indefinitely.

If feel called to go deeper in your life of faith then I would heartily recommend searching out a good priest as a spirtual director. It helped me in my walk of faith tremendously.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

1. This is the most vulnerable state. St Teresa of Avila describes the interior spiritual life as a crystal glass castle - the aim of the spirtual life is the reach the centre, where God sits enthroned. People at the beginning of the spiritual life are in the outer courtyard, where they are most vulnerable to being tricked and deceived by Satan into falling. To be safe they must flee further into the castle.
2. Even if we go to heaven, if we have not reached a state of perfect holiness in this life, then we will have to suffer purgatory, which is a process of purification which we go through in order to enter heaven.
3. We are not equal in heaven. The amount of love to which we have attained to in this life is fixed in the next life. We will all be fully happy, but some will be more deeply happy than others. St. Therese of Liseaux likened it to a thimble of water and a large jug. Both may be filled, but one contains more than the other. The level of holiness we attain to in this life matters.
4. Jesus promised life to the full in this life. The greatest happiness in this life is found by those who follow Him most closely. The more you follow God’s plan for your life, the more graces he will be able to bestow on you.

Okay, here’s just my opinion and I hope you won’t find it blunt.

1. Can you give me an analogy that doesn’t sound like running away and living in a bubble?
2. What if that doesn’t bother me?
3. Okay? So?
4. Well how sure are you that God’s plan for me involves using a great deal of my time reciting prayers, lighting candles, and Adoration?

 

[Kathrin]

How much faith and love for God we have is not only shown by how many hours we spend at church and how many candles we light.
It’s also how we live our lives as Christians.
Passing God’s love on to others, doing everything in His love, is a big part of what we should try to do.

Kathrin

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Okay, here’s just my opinion and I hope you won’t find it blunt.

1. Can you give me an analogy that doesn’t sound like running away and living in a bubble?
2. What if that doesn’t bother me?
3. Okay? So?
4. Well how sure are you that God’s plan for me involves using a great deal of my time reciting prayers, lighting candles, and Adoration?

1. The point put simply, is that the nearer one is to God, the less likely he will ever fall away.
2. & 3. It isn’t a huge surprise that those wouldn’t make a huge impact on you at the start of the spiritual life. However, as one becomes holier, the awareness of the realities of heaven, hell and purgatory become greater. The nearer one is to the light, the more clearly one sees. Many of the saints had very vivid visions of heaven, hell and purgatory. Until you reach that point yourself, you are asked only to take what the Church and the mystics say on trust.
3. Can you tell me for certain that it doesn’t? The truth is, I can’t tell you specifically, what God is calling you to. Only He can do that. What I can say for certain is that he desires greater & greater intimacy with you - and as you grow in that relationship, you will discover what his plan for you does entail.

He who searches finds. He who doesn’t doesn’t.

Therefore, in order to help people reach this deeper intimacy, the Church offers a range of help and assistance.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

How much faith and love for God we have is not only shown by how many hours we spend at church and how many candles we light.
It’s also how we live our lives as Christians.
Passing God’s love on to others, doing everything in His love, is a big part of what we should try to do.

Kathrin

Well then that just makes it pretty subjective don’t you think? Still, some people would insist on the candles and prayers part are a strong sign of spirituality part compared to everything else (even in this day and age).

1. The point put simply, is that the nearer one is to God, the less likely he will ever fall away.

Some people like to live their life taking risks. To them, living in constant security can only mean boredom and restlessness.

1. & 3. It isn’t a huge surprise that those wouldn’t make a huge impact on you at the start of the spiritual life. However, as one becomes holier, the awareness of the realities of heaven, hell and purgatory become greater. The nearer one is to the light, the more clearly one sees. Many of the saints had very vivid visions of heaven, hell and purgatory. Until you reach that point yourself, you are asked only to take what the Church and the mystics say on trust.

Yet as one gets in touch with the spiritual it just seems (to me) they lose touch with reality and forget that they’re not dead yet. They’re still alive, they might forget that they still need to get a job, pay the bills, or they might realize that such piety alienates people who are not spiritually in tune. They may even act a little foolish. I mean can you compare how many saints there have been past the later half of the twentieth century compared to the medieval times?

1. Can you tell me for certain that it doesn’t? The truth is, I can’t tell you specifically, what God is calling you to. Only He can do that. What I can say for certain is that he desires greater & greater intimacy with you - and as you grow in that relationship, you will discover what his plan for you does entail.

Read my first post on this thread again. Being religious is the last thing I can see myself as and with good reason. I’ll only be a hypocritical embarrassment. However, that doesn’t mean I can’t be morally upright by the Church’s general stances. I am heavily against abortion, repulsed by the gay agenda, disapprove of premarital sex and among other things. I just happen to be quite secular in terms of entertainment preferences, writing style, and verbally dealing with other people.

 

[nsper7]

So, is this a wrong view to take then: do whatever you want as long as you don’t commit mortal sin.

 

[Kathrin]

How about:
Do everything you do in God’s love?

 

[nsper7]

How about:
Do everything you do in God’s love?

Which, realistically, translates as…?

In terms of making concrete decisions on concrete issues, what does that mean? It makes more sense to know what is forbidden and required (the lines you must stay within as it were) and every other facet of decision-making based on one’s own desires (provided they fall within the lines).

 

[Kathrin]

But doesn’t it matter whether for example I do a good deed out of love, or out of a feeling of obligation?

 

[baltobetsy]

So, is this a wrong view to take then: do whatever you want as long as you don’t commit mortal sin.

Imagine yourself married. Is it an acceptable marriage as long as you don’t rape, beat, psychologically abuse or cheat on your wife?

 

[nsper7]

Imagine yourself married. Is it an acceptable marriage as long as you don’t rape, beat, psychologically abuse or cheat on your wife?

How would you feel if your spouse-to-be proposed by telling you, “Marry me or burn in Hell for all eternity?”