Is It Sinful to Take a Minimalist View of Faith?

[baltobetsy]

How would you feel if your spouse-to-be proposed by telling you, “Marry me or burn in Hell for all eternity?”

But that’s not the entirety of the marriage proposal. It’s more like, “Marry me and be loved and cared for forever beyond your wildest dreams or refuse my offer and burn in hell for all eternity,” to use your terminology.

 

[TedDC]

But that’s not the entirety of the marriage proposal. It’s more like, “Marry me and be loved and cared for forever beyond your wildest dreams or refuse my offer and burn in hell for all eternity,” to use your terminology.

Now that is a pick-up line

 

[baltobetsy]

Now that is a pick-up line

Worked for me!

 

[nsper7]

Now that is a pick-up line

LOL. If anyone, except for maybe a Sorority woman, used that sort of line on me, they would get a hasty trip outside my house (most likely through the door, but maybe a window if the door was too far away).

 

[Kathrin]

Why would we choose to not love God Who is ALL GOOD and ALL LOVE, every good thing there is is from Him?

 

[TedDC]

I put it to you that the image you have of God is of a monster. Yet does the Jesus of the gospel sound like a monster?

It’s not my image of God at all - it’s the image the Catholic Church embraces. I don’t know why - maybe to perpetuate its power over the “sheep”.

I don’t believe God would send a person to hell forever for such a harmless “offense” as masturbation.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

So, is this a wrong view to take then: do whatever you want as long as you don’t commit mortal sin.

Yes, this is completely wrong.
For a Catholic, a necessary prerequisite for salvation is to die in a state of grace, ie. not having mortal sin on your conscience. However, this is no guarantee of salvation. But that is the negative element. But there is a positive element too. We have to DO something in our lives.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’… "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Matthew 25.34-36,41-43

See that you have discussed above the question given by the rich man, and you noted that he was first asked to keep the commandments. The discussion that followed assumed the commandments to be “Thou shalt not this”, “Thou shalt not that”. But remember, Jesus formulated the greatest commandment positively.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Luke 10.25-27

As Catholics we recognise the need of the sacraments for salvation. It is by the sacraments we are purified of the sins which separate us from God. But if salvation were only a matter of avoiding sin, then the best thing I could do would be to buy a small house on a remote island and never see anyone or receive communication from the outside world; thus removing myself from the temptation to judge, criticise, think ill of, act selfishly towards another etc. etc. etc. However, that isn’t what Jesus tells anyone to do. The parable of the Talents (Matthew 25.14-30) tells us that the amazing grace of faith we have been given, is to be used and invested. My invitation to heaven reads Peter Littleton & Guest(s). It is not an individualistic thing, at all; its certainly not all about MY salvation.

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

It’s not my image of God at all - it’s the image the Catholic Church embraces. I don’t know why - maybe to perpetuate its power over the “sheep”.

I don’t believe God would send a person to hell forever for such a harmless “offense” as masturbation.

Firstly, the Catholic Church does not perpetuate the image of God as a Monster. Certain preachers have misrepresented Church teaching to give this impression.

Secondly, God doesn’t send anyone to hell because of a particular sin. No offence is too great to receive forgiveness, if only we repent.

Thirdly, masturbation. I will not rehearse the reasons why masturbation has always (even St. Augustine addressed this) been regarded as sinful. Suffice to say that the Church has authority on earth to say “Thus sayeth God” on matters of faith and morals.

If you were about to masturbate, and Jesus himself appeared beside you and said ‘stop doing that!’, I don’t think you would say ‘Oh Jesus, it’s only harmless pleasure, I’m not hurting anyone’. Well Jesus gave this authority to his disciples as leaders of the Church; He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me; but he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me." Luke 10.16

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

Read my first post on this thread again. Being religious is the last thing I can see myself as and with good reason. I’ll only be a hypocritical embarrassment. However, that doesn’t mean I can’t be morally upright by the Church’s general stances. I am heavily against abortion, repulsed by the gay agenda, disapprove of premarital sex and among other things. I just happen to be quite secular in terms of entertainment preferences, writing style, and verbally dealing with other people.

But isn’t it more hypocritical to go to Church on Sunday, worship an all powerful, all knowing, personal creator, and then not try to relate to him at all during the rest of the week?

It is great that you are living within the bounds of Church teaching; particularly in those areas where many Catholics have given way to secular culture. However, God is omniscient and knows with a great deal of specificity the best course for your life. This is the path of greatest fulfillment for you personally, and it it the path along which you will bring the most people to heaven. Choosing a different path may mean that someone else spends an eternity apart from God. Salvation is not an individualistic matter, as Western society tries to make it.

Finally, much of the discussion on this thread assumes that living within the teaching of the Church and following the commandments is a matter of what do DON’T DO. God is much for interested in what we DO DO! Jesus formulated the greatest command positively.

He answered, " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’ Luke 10.27

 

[TedDC]

Firstly, the Catholic Church does not perpetuate the image of God as a Monster. Certain preachers have misrepresented Church teaching to give this impression.

Secondly, God doesn’t send anyone to hell because of a particular sin. No offence is too great to receive forgiveness, if only we repent.

Thirdly, masturbation. I will not rehearse the reasons why masturbation has always (even St. Augustine addressed this) been regarded as sinful. Suffice to say that the Church has authority on earth to say “Thus sayeth God” on matters of faith and morals.

If you were about to masturbate, and Jesus himself appeared beside you and said ‘stop doing that!’, I don’t think you would say ‘Oh Jesus, it’s only harmless pleasure, I’m not hurting anyone’. Well Jesus gave this authority to his disciples as leaders of the Church; He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me; but he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me." Luke 10.16

I long ago lost the belief that any man on earth speaks for God - most especially those who claim the Bible gives them that authority. A man is just a man; I put my faith in God.

 

[nsper7]

Yes, this is completely wrong.
For a Catholic, a necessary prerequisite for salvation is to die in a state of grace, ie. not having mortal sin on your conscience. However, this is no guarantee of salvation. But that is the negative element. But there is a positive element too. We have to DO something in our lives.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’… "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Matthew 25.34-36,41-43

See that you have discussed above the question given by the rich man, and you noted that he was first asked to keep the commandments. The discussion that followed assumed the commandments to be “Thou shalt not this”, “Thou shalt not that”. But remember, Jesus formulated the greatest commandment positively.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
He answered: " ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’"
“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
Luke 10.25-27

As Catholics we recognise the need of the sacraments for salvation. It is by the sacraments we are purified of the sins which separate us from God. But if salvation were only a matter of avoiding sin, then the best thing I could do would be to buy a small house on a remote island and never see anyone or receive communication from the outside world; thus removing myself from the temptation to judge, criticise, think ill of, act selfishly towards another etc. etc. etc. However, that isn’t what Jesus tells anyone to do. The parable of the Talents (Matthew 25.14-30) tells us that the amazing grace of faith we have been given, is to be used and invested. My invitation to heaven reads Peter Littleton & Guest(s). It is not an individualistic thing, at all; its certainly not all about MY salvation.

My understanding is that the Church guarantees that if a person dies in a state of grace (no stain of mortal sin on their soul), then they will enter Heaven, although they may take a detour through Purgatory.

Be careful of not falling into one of the chief dangers of Protestantism: self-interpretation of Scripture. Find me one authoritative Church document or intepretation of such that claims a person can die in a state of grace (no mortal sin on their soul) yet still end up in Hell.

Remember that reception of the Sacraments is part of the requirements of the Church. One is required to be Baptized and to be Confirmed, also to receive the Sacraments of Communion and Penance at least once per year, although to attain Heaven, one should receive the Sacrament of Penance as often as necessary (anytime they feel they have mortal sin on their conscience or went to remain pure).

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

I long ago lost the belief that any man on earth speaks for God - most especially those who claim the Bible gives them that authority. A man is just a man; I put my faith in God.

Spoken by a true protestant!

Merry Christmas

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

My understanding is that the Church guarantees that if a person dies in a state of grace (no stain of mortal sin on their soul), then they will enter Heaven, although they may take a detour through Purgatory.QUOTE]

Dear Nsper7

Yes, I concede that a person who dies in a state of grace goes to heaven.
However, I would suggest that if they are in a state of grace( and their life isn’t cut short) and produce no works, then there will be no maintenance of the state of grace. Cf. James 1.

I will work on finding the necessary documents to show this. But until then I will think about it some more.

I wish you a very happy Christmas, and you will be very much in my prayers during this Christmas season.

God bless,

Peter

 

[Crown_of_Thorns]

nsper7;6090966:

My understanding is that the Church guarantees that if a person dies in a state of grace (no stain of mortal sin on their soul), then they will enter Heaven, although they may take a detour through Purgatory.QUOTE]

Dear Nsper7

Yes, I concede that a person who dies in a state of grace goes to heaven.
However, I would suggest that if they are in a state of grace( and their life isn’t cut short) and produce no works, then there will be no maintenance of the state of grace. Cf. James 1.

I will work on finding the necessary documents to show this. But until then I will think about it some more.

I wish you a very happy Christmas, and you will be very much in my prayers during this Christmas season.

God bless,

Peter

Actually, on reflection, I think I will leave it there.
I went to the Christmas Vigil tonight, having just left my last post, and it was as if I carried you with me there this evening, Nsper7. I was quite wound up that I hadn’t been able to say or write the right thing to help you to see Jesus as he really is. For much of the early part of the service all I could think about was asking Father, or asking some of the educated theologians I knew in the parish, what I should write.

Until, that is, when Jesus somehow took over, and all I could see was him, there on the altar. And at the end during the post-communion reflection a consecrated host was left on the altar. And as I sat there, looking at Almighty God, so humble and small on the altar in front of me, I realised, if someone can look at the humble presence of God in the Eucharist; or the helpless babe in the crib; and see a monster, a bully, a god of fire and brimstone, then there is no document I can quote, no argument I can put no clever representation that will be peace to that heart. Only God can do that.

I am genuinely sorry, that in my pride I believed and thought that I would by power of argument or logic do, what only the presence of the Holy Spirit can do. Archbishop Fulton Sheen once wrote that the soul that hated truth would suffer more in heaven than in hell; analogically speaking, the want of the Spirit of Christ makes us shrink from His companionship[The Priest is not His Own, Fulton Sheen, chapt. 5]. I really do hope that nothing I have written in my error, would have hindered your journey to the love of Truth and of God.

I won’t visit this thread anymore, but I will keep you firmly in my prayers, and will pray that the peace of Christ transcending all understanding will lead you one day to fall in love with the sacred heart of Jesus.

God Bless you this Christmas,
Peter

 

[bryan123459]

For me, I wonder these things because the centerpiece of my faith has always been: how do I avoid Hell?

Suggested resolution for the year ahead: Spend some time each day meditating and praying with Scripture verses that talk about God’s love. You might want to start with this one, “God is love.” Scripture is “sharper than a two-edged sword;” these verses can come to life within you through the power of the Holy Spirit. God bless you as you continue on your spiritual journey.