Is it St. Jonas, or Just Jonas?

[Matariel]

Dear fellow people, Jonas’ (or Jonah’s) story ended on a dour note in the Bible. Firstly, I was wondering if there is any extra-biblical legends of what became of Jonas. And secondly, is Jonas really St. Jonas? I’ve seen him depicted in cathedral statuary alongside other Old Testament Saints, so… does anyone know?

And is Mariam a Saint? David? Solomon? They all had some problems…

 

[bpbasilphx]

All the righteous of the OT are considered saints in the Eastern Churches (including Eastern Catholic Churches).

Many of them are commemorated in the Roman Martyrology on the same day as on the Byzantine Calendar, such as Elijah (20 July) and Moses (4 September).

 

[Matariel]

All the righteous of the OT are considered saints in the Eastern Churches (including Eastern Catholic Churches).

Many of them are commemorated in the Roman Martyrology on the same day as on the Byzantine Calendar, such as Elijah (20 July) and Moses (4 September).

Yeah; in the West Adam and Eve are commemorated on Dec. 1st, I think? Sometime in December… and there are others like Elijah, Enoch, Moses, etc., but what about Jonas? He has a book in the Bible, but it ends on a dour note, with him complaining and God scolding him. Is he a Saint?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Yeah; in the West Adam and Eve are commemorated on Dec. 1st, I think? Sometime in December… and there are others like Elijah, Enoch, Moses, etc., but what about Jonas? He has a book in the Bible, but it ends on a dour note, with him complaining and God scolding him. Is he a Saint?

Yes. He’s commemorated on the Byzantine calendar on 22 Sept.

 

[Matariel]

Yes. He’s commemorated on the Byzantine calendar on 22 Sept.

Oh, cool. Yeah, I’ve seen him in the facade of a Western cathedral. He was shown holding a book (Book of Jonas, I guess) and popping out of a fish’s mouth. Of course, I can see why he’d be a Saint, as he is a type of Christ’s entombment.

Do you know of any extra-biblical tradition of what happened to St. Jonas after the whole Nineveh ordeal? I’ve long wondered what became of him.

Thanks for the info, Bpbasilphx.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

It’s definitely St. Jonas; he is listed in the Roman Martyrology (1962 and 2004) on September 21st. BTW, Adam and Eve are not included in the Roman Martyrology. Naturally, this is not a statement against their existence, but it may be against their heroic virtue.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

 

[FrRJBoyd]

Dear fellow people, Jonas’ (or Jonah’s) story ended on a dour note in the Bible. Firstly, I was wondering if there is any extra-biblical legends of what became of Jonas. And secondly, is Jonas really St. Jonas? I’ve seen him depicted in cathedral statuary alongside other Old Testament Saints, so… does anyone know?

And is Mariam a Saint? David? Solomon? They all had some problems…

Miriam: not sure; Moses is (feast: Sept. 4)
David: yes (feast: Dec. 29)
Solomon: no; his sin was committed in his old age, and there is no record of his repentance. A tragedy.

There is a fascinating Carmelite legend of Jonas. In the Book of the First Monks, he is identified as the son of the widow from the Book of Kings, whom Elias raised from the dead. He then lived as one of the sons of the prophets, which eventually became the Order of Carmel.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

 

[Matariel]

It’s definitely St. Jonas; he is listed in the Roman Martyrology (1962 and 2004) on September 21st. BTW, Adam and Eve are not included in the Roman Martyrology. Naturally, this is not a statement against their existence, but it may be against their heroic virtue.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

That’s astonishing (the Adam and Eve part)! I’ve seen medals embossed with “St. Adam” on them, and I’ve seen their images in the churches. And, I recalled a December celebration of them…?

Or did I imagine it all? I think Adam and Eve are saints, even though they messed up big time, they’re definitely in Heaven and they were the generator and generatrix of the entire human race.

 

[Matariel]

Miriam: not sure; Moses is (feast: Sept. 4)
David: yes (feast: Dec. 29)
Solomon: no; his sin was committed in his old age, and there is no record of his repentance. A tragedy.

There is a fascinating Carmelite legend of Jonas. In the Book of the First Monks, he is identified as the son of the widow from the Book of Kings, whom Elias raised from the dead. He then lived as one of the sons of the prophets, which eventually became the Order of Carmel.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

Oh, wow, cool. That makes a lot of sense. The Carmel Legend seems reliable, then, doesn’t it?

Too bad Solomon messed up big time. Didn’t he have 300 wives and 500 concubines? How sad. And he was the wisest person in the world…

 

[Ghoti]

That’s astonishing (the Adam and Eve part)! I’ve seen medals embossed with “St. Adam” on them…

I can’t see ol’ Adam being portrayed without Eve – they’re sort of a “matched set”. There is indeed a St Adam…perhaps that’s to whom you’re referring?

Whether or not any of the old patriarchs/prophets are in heaven…I have never encountered the title “Saint” in conjunction with any OT figures (except in the Eastern churches, like on icons); my personal experience seems to be that that particular title (St) is limited to Mary (in certain circumstances; in Catholicism she is more likely to be referred to by one of her other titles, such as Blessed Virgin Mary or Mother Mary etc), Joseph, John the Baptist, Elizabeth and Zachariah, the Apostles & other followers (Mary Magdalen, Joseph of Arimathea), etc, and thereafter the martyrs and saints of the post-Ascension Church. For example, if (in a religious context) one were to mention “David” (sans title) I would immediately think of King David; if they said “St David”, I start thinking Wales instead of Israel.

I think that may be a limitation of English more than anything else. The Greek word for “holy” is the same as the one we translate for “saint”, yes? The same occurs (I think) in Polish and perhaps Russian, as well as other languages? It just seems to me that we reserve the title “Saint” for Jesus’ contemporaries onward (exception: Ss Joachim and Anne, whom Tradition holds are saints).

 

[Matariel]

I can’t see ol’ Adam being portrayed without Eve – they’re sort of a “matched set”. There is indeed a St Adam…perhaps that’s to whom you’re referring?
…
I think that may be a limitation of English more than anything else. The Greek word for “holy” is the same as the one we translate for “saint”, yes? The same occurs (I think) in Polish and perhaps Russian, as well as other languages? It just seems to me that we reserve the title “Saint” for Jesus’ contemporaries onward (exception: Ss Joachim and Anne, whom Tradition holds are saints).

Yeah, I think it’s an English thing; we’re the only ones with a separate word for “saint” instead of just “holy” (which is why we have an extra step to explain to Protestants about how saint is used in a different sense than in the Bible, since their are various degrees of holiness. )

 

[bpbasilphx]

Solomon: no; his sin was committed in his old age, and there is no record of his repentance. A tragedy.

He’s considered a saint in Byzantine Churches and is frequently depected as a young man in iconography, especiallly in such groups as All Saints or such.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It’s definitely St. Jonas; he is listed in the Roman Martyrology (1962 and 2004) on September 21st. BTW, Adam and Eve are not included in the Roman Martyrology. Naturally, this is not a statement against their existence, but it may be against their heroic virtue.

God bless,

Fr. Boyd

Hi Father,

Does this mean that its infallibly defined that Jonas was a real person, not just a character in a religious work of fiction?

Does the same apply to Judith? Often she is considered fictional as well. Is she a saint?

 

[Matariel]

Hi Father,

Does this mean that its infallibly defined that Jonas was a real person, not just a character in a religious work of fiction?

Does the same apply to Judith? Often she is considered fictional as well. Is she a saint?

I think it’s not a good way to interpret Scripture. Of course Jonas and Judith were real flesh-and-bone people, just like Adam and Eve.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think it’s not a good way to interpret Scripture. Of course Jonas and Judith were real flesh-and-bone people, just like Adam and Eve.

Well I certainly wouldnt want to start a debate on that particular subject in the *traditional catholic* section of all places. But Im hoping to find an authoritive answer on whether the title St. Jonas is, on its own, a rock-solid infallible argument in favor of the historicity of the book of Jonah.

 

[Matariel]

Well I certainly wouldnt want to start a debate on that particular subject in the *traditional catholic* section of all places. But Im hoping to find an authoritive answer on whether the title St. Jonas is, on its own, a rock-solid infallible argument in favor of the historicity of the book of Jonah.

Sorry I snapped at you. I just think it’s an unhealthy reaction to automatically reject something as historical in the Bible just because at first it may seem outlandish.

I would say that, since he is a saint, he must be a real person, since sainthood means that that person is in Heaven and worthy of veneration.

Maybe St. Jonas was a historical figure that this fictional narrative was built around? I don’t think so, but I guess it’s an acceptable view.

 

[FrRJBoyd]

Well I certainly wouldnt want to start a debate on that particular subject in the *traditional catholic* section of all places. But Im hoping to find an authoritive answer on whether the title St. Jonas is, on its own, a rock-solid infallible argument in favor of the historicity of the book of Jonah.

I don’t think you are going to find anything as rock-sold as you desire. There is, as yet, no solemnly defined, de fide teaching on these matters. However, I think you can infer certain things from (1) the words of our Lord, (2) the witness of the Fathers, and (3) the liturgy of the Church (which includes the martyrology).

(1) Our Lord seems to refer to Jonas as a real person:

“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt. 12:40)

“An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” (Mt. 16:4)

“Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels…, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught…” (Dei Verbim, #19).

(2) The opinion that Jonas is anything other than a real person is unknown among the Fathers; Sts. Irenaeus, Cyril of Jerusalem, Augustine and Gregory comment on Jonas as if his existence should be taken for granted, and St. Jerome warns, “I am aware that some will be incredulous that a man should be preserved three days and three nights in the belly of a whale, to which the shipwreck had led him; these people are either believers or non-believers: if they are believers, they are obliged to believe much greater things.”

(3) While the canonization process that is usually regarded as infallible was not used in declaring Jonas or any other Biblical figure a saint, the liturgy is considered a component of the living Tradition (CCC 1124). When Holy Mother Church celebrates the feast of particular saints, She is affirming their existence and holiness. By including Jonas in the Roman Martyology, Holy Mother Church is saying that you can safely pray to him to intercede for you to God.

Hence, you are clearly on solid ground if you choose to believe in Jonas. Perhaps the burden of proof should then be upon those who wish to deny his existence and the historicity of the book which bears his name. Remember, Bultmann doesn’t have the title “Doctor of the Church.” He’s not canonized. He wasn’t even Catholic.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Remember, Bultmann doesn’t have the title “Doctor of the Church.” He’s not canonized. He wasn’t even Catholic.

**Did you hear the joke about archaeologists in Israel finding an ossuary with the rude inscription “Yesua bar Mariam”?

In surfprise, they brought their find to Billy Graham, who said, “Oh, my! This is important! Take it to the Pope!”

The Pope said, “Take it to Bultmann.”

Bultmann looked at it in deep silence and said, “Mein Gott! He did live after all.”**

 

[Neil_Anthony]

(3) While the canonization process that is usually regarded as infallible was not used in declaring Jonas or any other Biblical figure a saint, the liturgy is considered a component of the living Tradition (CCC 1124). When Holy Mother Church celebrates the feast of particular saints, She is affirming their existence and holiness. By including Jonas in the Roman Martyology, Holy Mother Church is saying that you can safely pray to him to intercede for you to God.

Thanks Father, this is really helpful.
Sincerely,
Neil