Is it the Liturgy, or the people?

[pnewton]

But that is the question!

If this Sunday every Mass said in the states was a Trinedtine Mass, would there be a sudden rise in perceived reverence?

Of course not. Our character dictates our behavior. Those who talk this week before Mass, would do so next week. Priests that ignored the rubrics last week would do so next week. I would bet a dollar to a donut some would even refuse the TLM and continue in some vernacular Mass. Disobedience is disobedience in any language.

 

[PatrickJT914]

So let me get this straight. A house of worship is only a church that only fits a peculiar style of architecture. Anything else would be profane. I guess that include Masses done on the battlefield, in the catacombs, on broad warships and ocean liners, in homes of early Christians, and anywhere esle where a church building was not feasible. Okay then when a new parish is established it usually doesn’t have a ready made building for Mass. So in the meantime Mass has to be said for the people. Also if a church building that has already been built should suffer significant damage in a man made or natural disaster. It would then have to be repaired or rebuilt from the ground up. Where would the people worship? Probably in a temporary tent or rent a hall or an auditoruim from somewhere. Would make it or the people attending profane even if for a little while?

In my parish history we were established in 1948, but the new church building wasn’t ready for Mass until 1949. In the meantime Mass was held in Eagle’s Hall. Confessions were held on Saturday afternoons in a tavern. I guess that makes it profane. For sixty years since the parish was established it has been the dream to build a new church. To replace the current one. The current church would then become the hall/auditorium. That is why it is shaped like this.

 

[Shin]

So let me get this straight. A house of worship is only a church that only fits a peculiar style of architecture. Anything else would be profane. I guess that include Masses done on the battlefield, in the catacombs, on broad warships and ocean liners, in homes of early Christians, and anywhere esle where a church building was not feasible…

This is a false contrast. We are talking about a norm, not an emergency or exceptional situation. I think many people -understand- that is the case then use -false contrasts- to try to make something be a way they prefer, but this is wrong. Of course it also is sometimes a more innocent mistake.

 

[maurin]

Our Chapel–Queen of the Most Holy Rosary–and we parishioners are poor. We assist at Mass in a converted 1 storey structure that used to be divided into 2 apartments. The Altar is a stone slab, beautifully covered with linens hand sewn by the women of the Chapel. Everything is pieced together, and hand made, except for the Statues (which are old, and maybe even tacky cheap) and the pews, which were salvaged from a Parish about to be destroyed out of state, and transported in the back of the pickups of the men of the Parish. The Communion Rails are made by hand and upholstered by hand with faux leather.

But the love of the people and of the Priest has made it the most beautiful Parish Church I have ever had the privilege to be a part of. Instaurare Omnia in Christo!

It’s the best of what we had to offer.

 

[DavidPalm]

There have been many excellent answers given already. Here’s my $0.02 U.S.

1. On the premise that you quite literally get what you pray for, the priest and congregation at a TLM are going to get very different and greater spiritual benefits because they pray for different and greater spiritual benefits by virtue of the rite of Mass which they pray. (Read 'em and see for yourself!)
2. Grace builds upon nature. So greater reverence in word and action disposes the congregation to receive more graces. I’m fully convinced that the Novus Ordo is valid, but I’m equally convinced that, just like a body that cannot absorb vitamins even though they are available, the combination of habitual sin and an endemic lackadaisical attitude toward the Mass leaves the people unable to receive the graces that are available.
3. Alas, one must agree with Msgr. Klaus Gamber that, although the Novus Ordo is certain valid in se, there can hardly be any doubt that there has been a grave increase of invalid Masses said since the liturgical revolution broke upon the Church. So in those cases, there isn’t anything there to receive.

 

[Frosty]

There have been many excellent answers given already. Here’s my $0.02 U.S.

1. On the premise that you quite literally get what you pray for, the priest and congregation at a TLM are going to get very different and greater spiritual benefits because they pray for different and greater spiritual benefits by virtue of the rite of Mass which they pray. (Read 'em and see for yourself!)

2) Grace builds upon nature. So greater reverence in word and action disposes the congregation to receive more graces. I’m fully convinced that the Novus Ordo is valid, but I’m equally convinced that, just like a body that cannot absorb vitamins even though they are available, the combination of habitual sin and an endemic lackadaisical attitude toward the Mass leaves the people unable to receive the graces that are available.

1. Alas, one must agree with Msgr. Klaus Gamber that, although the Novus Ordo is certain valid in se, there can hardly be any doubt that there has been a grave increase of invalid Masses said since the liturgical revolution broke upon the Church. So in those cases, there isn’t anything there to receive.

Wow! I’ve read a lot of ignorant hot air and biased nonsense on this forum but the bolded paragraph takes the cake. Are you really saying that the OF is so lacking in itself of spiritual graces and benefits that people who attend it automatically become irreverent and lazy? And that those same people are habitual sinners because they attend a Mass that cannot give them the necessary graces that God wishes to bestow upon them? How pitiful then are those poor ignorant people who do attend the OF Mass, believing that they are participating in the Sacrifice of the Mass with full understanding and piety, blind to the notion of some that they are attending an inferior rite of worship and therefore unable to recieve the true graces and benefits of God. So unlike those elect who attend the EF and are sure that they are less sinful and more pleasing in the eyes of God!
I truly hope that I have misread your statement. I really do.

 

[maurin]

Wow! I’ve read a lot of ignorant hot air and biased nonsense on this forum but the bolded paragraph takes the cake.

quite true, Frosty. One only need to read on to see your point proven:

Are you really saying that the OF is so lacking in itself of spiritual graces and benefits that people who attend it automatically become irreverent and lazy? And that those same people are habitual sinners because they attend a Mass that cannot give them the necessary graces that God wishes to bestow upon them?

No, he didn’t say that at all. What I got from David’s post is that when sin, Confession, Penance, Mercy, Grace, etc. is not preached on a regular basis, which it is NOT in the greater part of my experience in the NO, then one finds it much harder to receive and respond to the Graces imparted by the NO, which of course is a valid, although deficient (in my opinion, of course) rite.

I truly hope that I have misread your statement. I really do.

you have.

 

[DavidPalm]

quite true, Frosty. One only need to read on to see your point proven: No, he didn’t say that at all. What I got from David’s post is that when sin, Confession, Penance, Mercy, Grace, etc. is not preached on a regular basis, which it is NOT in the greater part of my experience in the NO, then one finds it much harder to receive and respond to the Graces imparted by the NO, which of course is a valid, although deficient (in my opinion, of course) rite. you have.

Thank you, maurin. In my opinion, beyond just the preaching, liturgies which are less reverent and whose distinctive Catholic content diminishes (as options in the NO provide for) leave the congregation less receptive to the graces that are available. There is, after all, a personal element to receiving grace at Mass. It can be available in abundance, but the individual has to be disposed to receive that grace. It would seem logical to me that the external form of the liturgy itself can indeed dispose or indispose one to receive those graces.

 

[maurin]

and just to take it just a little farther, I believe it is the deficiencies inherent in the NO–the overemphasis of the communal meal aspect, rather than the emphasis on the Sacrificial Nature of the Mass which has lead to the blurring of the roles of the Priest and the Faithful–which leads to the irreverence which is in reality the rule of the NO, rather than the exception.

 

[PaulinVA]

I read all of your replies with interest.

As I previously stated, my parish can’t be used as an indication of the state of reverence in the NO Church, since we have a “Worship Center” that in itself fosters a lack of reverence.

I think it’s also true that since the Tridentine Mass is an option that people seek out, the reverence found now can not be indicative of the level of reverence that would be achieved if it was “rolled out” to the whole US Church.

Yes, I remember the Church in the sixties. I actually attended church as a child in a building built as a gymnasium, so it was a long cinder block building with an altar in the front and the confessionals in the back. People were quiet and reverent, I guess, and I do remember the altar rail and communion kneeling. But, I have a child’s memory, so who knows whether I have selective memory.

I think there needs to be more of everything in the US Catholic Church - more vocations, more obedience to Church teaching, more reverence during and after Mass, more people feeling they need to go to confession.

I just don’t know that the Tridentine Mass, and all that would come with it, would solve the problems.

 

[Ockham]

The Tridentine Mass is much more of a prayer in itself whereas the NO Mass has prayers in it. The fact that you kneel thoughout most of the Tridentine promotes reverence.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I think it bears repeating that the more traditional and strict orders are teeming with vocations. The heterodox ones are graying and dying out.

 

[pnewton]

PaulinVA

Your choice of forum will greatly influence the responce you get, as opposed to if this had been posted in the Liturgy Forum.

 

[PaulinVA]

PaulinVA

Your choice of forum will greatly influence the responce you get, as opposed to if this had been posted in the Liturgy Forum.

Good point!

 

[elts1956]

Yes. The reverence, mystery, and doctrinal depth of the liturgy itself would be cause for greater reverence from the congregation. If the Mass is treated casually by those celebrating it (which is made easier by the loose rubrics of the Pauline Mass), and lacks a sense of encounter with the mystery of God, then others will treat it casually as well.

I believe if the NO suddenly disappeared and was replaced by TLM, there would be mass confusion and exodus of the “faithful”. Some of the people I have talked to in my Parish about TLM replacing the NO look at me in shock and disbelief. Most of them say “No, way.” or “Latin yuck.” And this includes folks my age who experienced the TLM before Vatican II. Now those people I do not understand. The others who have never experienced TLM, I do have empathy for. They have known the NO for over forty five years. This is what they were raised with and I don’t think they will suddenly accept TLM. If the priests would only gradually bring back some of the traditional liturgy, some Latin, more of the traditional music, psalms etc. I don’t think the NO attenders would feel that the Mass was reverting to the “old times” and was no longer appropriate for the “progress” some of the more liberal minded prefer. If change there is to be, it should be done gradually. I was raised in the era of only TLM and would love to see it brought back. I am all for ecumenism, but not at the expense of our Catholic identity and culture. That is what has been weakened by trying to please everyone and ending by pleasing no one.

 

[Ockham]

I I am all for ecumenism, but not at the expense of our Catholic identity and culture. That is what has been weakened by trying to please everyone and ending by pleasing no one.

Alas, that is exactly what happened. The Holy Father is slowly trying to restore Catholicism, but he’s facing resistence from the modernist faction. They will cry bloody murder, make threats, appeal to the media and in the end if some leave - good riddance. They weren’t Catholics anyway.

Personally, I’d like to see the NO offered at the Saturday evening Mass only with a low and then high Mass on Sunday, but we’re not there yet. The NO and ‘spirit of Vatican II’ is basically dumbed down Catholicism so now we have a generation that doesn’t know any better with the one that prefers it that way. Intermingled are those who thirst for a greater liturgical and catechismal substance.

We have also devolved into a society of instant gratification, mega-choice, sound bites, fast pace and low attention span. These are not qualities naturally condusive to the Tridentine Mass. Faith has to compete against the sports & entertainment industry, video games, internet, busy dual income family life. secularism, materialism, and the false promises of non-Catholic denominations. Bringing the Tridentine Mass back in its existing form won’t be an easy task.

This economic crisis isn’t a blip on the screen soon to be corrected. It is the inevitable consequence of the choices we’ve been making and the remedy isn’t a little pill. The “Me” generation(s) is being held accountable for their shortsightedness and falling to modern temptations. Hopefully, as a group we are coming to realize that age old wisdom does indeed hold truth and stands the test of time. This will make the church Christ founded relevant again to the masses.

The NO was a Mass for the time, but the Tridentine is the Mass for all ages. The parallel between the NO and our modern Western society is remarkable (by their fruits you shall know them). With the age of aquarius fading to dusk a reform of the reform is needed. As Father Z points out, “Save the liturgy. Save the world”.

 

[maurin]

I believe if the NO suddenly disappeared and was replaced by TLM, there would be mass confusion and exodus of the “faithful”. Some of the people I have talked to in my Parish about TLM replacing the NO look at me in shock and disbelief. Most of them say “No, way.” or “Latin yuck.” And this includes folks my age who experienced the TLM before Vatican II. Now those people I do not understand. The others who have never experienced TLM, I do have empathy for. They have known the NO for over forty five years. This is what they were raised with and I don’t think they will suddenly accept TLM. If the priests would only gradually bring back some of the traditional liturgy, some Latin, more of the traditional music, psalms etc. I don’t think the NO attenders would feel that the Mass was reverting to the “old times” and was no longer appropriate for the “progress” some of the more liberal minded prefer. If change there is to be, it should be done gradually. I was raised in the era of only TLM and would love to see it brought back. I am all for ecumenism, but not at the expense of our Catholic identity and culture. That is what has been weakened by trying to please everyone and ending by pleasing no one.

y’know, it’s funny. it took satan exactly, what, almost overnight to destroy the Mass by getting it into Bugnini’s hands. A mass exodus from the Priesthood, Religious Orders and the Mass itself.

And we’re worried about cooperating with God to restore His Church? Who’re we afraid of losing? Cafeteria Catholics?

I long to hear the Pope say, as he did many years ago, ‘a smaller, more Faithful Church.’ I suppose on that day, we would see who really is in Communion with him.

 

[PaulinVA]

Alas, that is exactly what happened. The Holy Father is slowly trying to restore Catholicism, but he’s facing resistence from the modernist faction. They will cry bloody murder, make threats, appeal to the media and in the end if some leave - good riddance. They weren’t Catholics anyway.

Uhm, by virtue of their baptism, they ARE Catholic. Don’t write them off because they irritate you. Pledge to pull them along with you.

Personally, I’d like to see the NO offered at the Saturday evening Mass only with a low and then high Mass on Sunday, but we’re not there yet. The NO and ‘spirit of Vatican II’ is basically dumbed down Catholicism so now we have a generation that doesn’t know any better with the one that prefers it that way. Intermingled are those who thirst for a greater liturgical and catechismal substance.

I’d like to see the Saturday Masses done away with. How can a parish have vigil Mass at 5Pm on Saturday and a “youth” Mass at 5PM on Sunday? Isn’t a liturgical day only 24 hours?

The NO was a Mass for the time, but the Tridentine is the Mass for all ages. The parallel between the NO and our modern Western society is remarkable (by their fruits you shall know them). With the age of aquarius fading to dusk a reform of the reform is needed. As Father Z points out, “Save the liturgy. Save the world”.

Ewww, Father Z is a “Heros” fan? I got lost a long time ago.

I want to believe you about the Tridentine Mass, but I am not totally there yet.

 

[diggerdomer]

I’d like to see the Saturday Masses done away with. How can a parish have vigil Mass at 5Pm on Saturday and a “youth” Mass at 5PM on Sunday? Isn’t a liturgical day only 24 hours?

Yes, in general the liturgical day is 24 hours long. However, for Sundays and Solemnities, because of the dignity and importance of their celebrations, the liturgical day begins the evening before. So, for instance, that’s why in the Liturgy of the Hours there are Evening Prayer I and Evening Prayer II for Sundays and Solemnities (I being prayed the “night before” and II being prayer the “evening of”).

Regarding whoever posted

The NO was a Mass for the time, but the Tridentine is the Mass for all ages

Well…umm…no…the so-called Tridentine Mass was promulgated during the Council of Trent in the 16th century so it’s hardly a Mass for all ages. You can’t ignore 1500 years of Tradition in favor of that particular Rite.

Cheers

 

[Ockham]

*The rite of Mass as we all knew it up to the beginning of the Council was the culmination of a gradual and natural development under the Holy Ghost which had lasted for fifteen hundred and seventy years. By the year of Our Lord 1570, at the end of the Council of Trent, it had reached as near perfection as anything on earth could ever be.

“It is,” wrote Father Frederick Faber, “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven. It came forth out of the grand mind of the Church and lifted us out of earth and out of self, and wrapped us round in a cloud of mystical sweetness and the sublimities of a more than angelic liturgy, and purified us almost without ourselves, and charmed us with celestial charming so that our very senses seemed to find vision, hearing, fragrance, taste and touch more than ear can give.”
What a wonderful, wonderful, description that is of the old Mass.
4. Pope St. Pius V in 1570, after the Council of Trent, did not devise a new rite of Mass, as is often claimed by those who devised the new Mass in the 1960s. He was content to codify the Roman Missal which existed at that time (the so-called Tridentine Mass) and extend its use throughout the whole Church as a bulwark against the attacks on the Church from the Reformation which was taking place throughout Europe at that time in the sixteenth century. Its prayers and its ceremonies made the Catholic doctrines of Sacrifice and the Real Presence absolutely explicit in accordance with the principle - lex orandi, lex credendi, - the law of prayer is the law of faith, or, what you pray is what you believe. The term Tridentine Mass is a little misleading. Father Adrian Fortescue, England’s greatest liturgical historian, wrote:

“Our Mass goes back without essential change to the age when Caesar ruled the world and thought he could stamp out the faith of Christ, when our fathers met together before dawn and sang a hymn to Christ as God… there is not in Christendom a rite so venerable as ours.” *
latin-mass-society.org/leomass.htm

The ancient rite of Mass embodies a spirituality and spiritual lessons that can appeal to every generation and time. By ancient ritual is meant that rite which was codified by St. Gregory the Great and which underwent a very slow organic development over the course of centuries. The last missal promulgated that enjoys that organic growth is that of 1962.

latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SU_Ripperger.html

*St. Pius V had the Roman Missal drawn up (as the present Apostolic Constitution itself recalls) so that it might be an instrument of unity among Catholics. In conformity with the injunctions of the Council of Trent it was to exclude all danger, in liturgical worship, of errors against the Faith, then threatened by the Protestant Reformation. The gravity of the situation fully justified, and even rendered prophetic, the saintly Pontiff’s solemn warning given at the end of the Bull promulgating his Missal "should anyone presume to tamper with this, let him know that he shall incur the wrath of God Almighty and his blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul. (Quo Primum, July 13, 1570)

…]

To abandon a liturgical tradition which for four centuries was both the sign and pledge of unity of worship (and to replace it with another which cannot but be a sign of division by virtue of the countless liberties implicitly authorised, and which teems with insinuations or manifest errors against the integrity of the Catholic religion) is, we feel in conscience bound to proclaim, an incalculable error. *
fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html

The Tridentine Mass was codified at Trent (thus the name) in order to protect it from Protestant tampering. The Mass had evolved organically since the Last Supper. It’s strength lies in the absence of the word “or”, such as Eucharistic Prayer 8 or 9 or whatever you think best. It bears the four marks of the Church (one, holy, catholic, apostolic) thus can be presented the same way was St. Thomas Aquanus, Mother Theresa, and in the future. It is therefore a Mass of all ages, unlike the NO Mass.