Is it theologically possible to intercede for a condemnable soul post-death?

[CentralFLJames]

Hopefully this is the right forum to post this.

I have been looking into some ideas about intercessory powers of The Church that I have been studying and wanted to get opinions:

**Questions:
Anyone think that it’s possible to intercede for a soul worthy of hell to go to heaven by praying for them after their deaths?

If not, given that God is the God of history (both past and to come)
why does the Church sometimes pray for things at a different time; and why need it always be for a future time rather than also a past time when eternity is always “now”?
**

I note that The Church has always held the tradition and teaching that we have a charitable obligation to pray for the departed so that those souls in purgatory may be assisted and benefited through our prayers and sacrifices. We know from our theology that at the instant of death a soul is judged. But we also know through the same theology and through the common sense of logic that souls released from their corporeal bodies at death are no longer subject to any temporal constraints. Such souls are released into state of timeless existence. There becomes a timeless singularity of “now” that is simultaneously a past-present-future and timeless eternal reality.

So I am speculating and starting to believe that a person who died an instant ago or even a century ago or a millennium ago etc. is to us or any future church member in the same identical spiritual “instant” that they are in and were in at the instant of their corporeal death. If we assume a benevolent God who is omnipotent and Who’s Will is that a greater good over a fallen humanity will extend from His saving grace might it be possible He might apply mercy and judgment of a soul at the instant when that final determination most benefits the soul? Might The Church be able to reach back far in time and appeal on behalf of all departed souls to plead for mercy?

Thoughts?

[more of my thoughts follow in the next post]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

[continued from above]

If my assumptions are valid I have an idea that is may be possible to pray for people long since dead as if they still exist spiritually in that same instant of passing from this life to the next; even as if in the same instant just before God’s judgment on that soul. If this is theologically valid it may be possible then for The Church through it’s special intercessory role to “save” souls posthumously. That is, through petitions acting through the merits of Jesus to access God’s grace and the treasuries of the merits of The Church et-al it appears that it may be possible to intercede for souls at all points in time through intercessional prayer, penance and sacrifice! It’s a pretty exciting idea and I don’t think it is technically in violation with any teaching. We already pray for the dead on the assumption that they may need our prayers in purgatory. We are instructed not to assume that God condemns any particular soul to hell but to trust that He is Just and Merciful and does “the right thing”.

So, might it be possible for The Church at anytime to interceded to rescue souls who are in a suspended instant of being judged and condemned to Hell? I even researched the possibility that God might make exceptions and liberate a soul from hell or at least suspend final judgment for one who was “in the instant” of being condemned to hell. That investigation led me to the New Advent source on Hell. From here I learned that: ‘In itself, it is no rejection of Catholic dogma to suppose that God might at times, by way of exception, liberate a soul from hell. But it is contrary to what all theologians unanimously now teach.’ Yet as an apparent contradiction that is not itself inconsistent with official church dogma it is noted that The Church does make an offertory in the Mass of The Dead with the prayer :

DOMINE JESU CHRISTE
O Lord Jesus Christ, King of Glory,
deliver the souls of all the faithful departed
from the pains of Hell, from the deep lake.
But let the standard bearer Michael bring them
into holy light.

Some or many would of course reflexively and brusquely push this notion aside without much thought and take “hell” here in this prayer as meaning “purgatory”. Yet a deeper 2nd look at the order of the liturgy for the dead reveals that sometimes the church does in fact actually project it’s spiritual intentions and intercessions backwards in time (e.g. during funeral rites for example). That is we do pray “now” as if the deceased was still alive and almost as was dieing before us at the moment we perform the rites. So there appears in practice to be a tacit acceptance that was can pray for people at a different point in time.

We know that no prayer is wasted in heaven in any respect. We just don’t know definitively if the prayers benefit the specific departed soul (but clearly the assumption is we think and hope they do or we would have no rites). Thus in saying the prayer mentioned above we trust that it is accepted by God post-death (in “our” time) to refer to the moment in time when the soul is about to leave the body (as if it has not yet). Although the prayer is actually said some time after that moment; and as if he were actually at the death-beds of the faithful, the priest implores God to preserve their souls from hell. Clearly, though the Church would not ask for something it thought not possible since that would be vanity, presumptuous and sinful. So I deduce that this prayer must be a conditional prayer on the assumption that the infinite and timeless almighty God can see and hear through His omniscience these prayers and petitions as if they were spoken on behalf of the deceased to benefit its soul as if just before or in the “instant” of death.

So I think it is certainly within God’s ability and all seeing nature to see and act on these intercessory prayers at any time spoken either pre or post-death to take them into consideration through His Mercy to act on them before He passes judgment on a soul. Of course God would not delay a soul entry to heaven pending prayers if God sees it worthy to enter. But I also think God’s omnipotent mercy might suspend judgment for a condemnable soul pending prayers, intentions and merits yet to be “in coming” so to speak. So I further speculate that prayer by virtue of its eternal and timeless nature, when projected through the mystical body of Christ (The Church) reaches God’s ears in a most efficacious way irrespective of when it was prayed. It thus seems plausible that it’s quite possible to appeal to God’s Mercy on an individual soul by petitioning posthumously through God’s timeless saving grace to rescue souls otherwise condemnable.

Thoughts?

James

 

[Ghoti]

I’m not a theologian. A lot of theology makes my head hurt.

But if there’s a time limit on the efficacy of praying for the dead, what is it? I can only see two options: immediate and eternal (eternal as in to the end of the world). If it’s immediate, then it’s too late to do any praying once you’ve heard someone’s dead. If it’s eternal, then why not? Wasn’t Jesus’ sacrifice “for all time”? Then why can’t our prayers for God’s mercy be “for all time”?

I have one problem with your premise, the person “worthy of Hell.” We don’t get to make that decision; we cannot say that about anyone. Not even the Church can say that: they can say who’s in heaven (the saints) but they can’t say who’s in hell (besides Satan, I assume).

So, go ahead. Pray. Might not help, but definitely wouldn’t hurt.

 

[jmcrae]

It is true that God is outside of time, and can do anything. I once prayed for an interview that had gone badly, after the fact, and I ended up getting the job. (All of the other applicants received better offers.)

So, all I can say is, God’s ways are mysterious, indeed.

I have sometimes idly wondered if I could pray to myself in Heaven, although obviously the degree of presumption required would probably land me in Hell, thus causing the effort to be completely wasted …

 

[puzzleannie]

I can only add what I heard in a parish mission given by Fr. Richard Hunt. He took his teaching from Thomas Aquinas, and I am summarizing my understanding of what he said, which was itself simplified greatly, but basically:
at the moment of death, the soul confronts Christ in the particular judgement, and from that point on is outside time, in eternity, so that the judgement, confrontation of seeing Christ as he truly is and of seeing God, being convicted honestly and completely of one’s sins, purification from the effects of sin and meeting happen in eternity, and to speak of “days in purgatory” is a convention merely. So that also all the graces of all the prayers and Masses offered on behalf of the departed soul are also in eternity, not time, and are present for the benefit of the soul at that moment of judgement, self-knowledge and choice of heaven vs hell. so in short, yes prayers offered for the deceased long after death are efficacious.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

James none of us deserves to go to heaven. Only if one is “in christ” will they at the judgemen go to heaven. Hebrews 9:27 rules out second chances after death.

 

[Lazerlike42]

God is outside of time, and so He can answer prayers made after a person’s death. That doesn’t mean a damned person can become undamned, but it means that the prayers may have been able to bring the person to, at the moment of death and past such time as it would be recognizable, repent and accept God’s forgiveness.

For example, I pray daily for Adolf Hitler and several other ne’er-do-wells. I can’t change the choices he made in his life, but its possible my prayers might have benefited him at the moment of death.

Peace and God bless

 

[Joe_Kelley]

God is outside of time, and so He can answer prayers made after a person’s death. That doesn’t mean a damned person can become undamned, but it means that the prayers may have been able to bring the person to, at the moment of death and past such time as it would be recognizable, repent and accept God’s forgiveness.

For example, I pray daily for Adolf Hitler and several other ne’er-do-wells. I can’t change the choices he made in his life, but its possible my prayers might have benefited him at the moment of death.

Peace and God bless

That sounds right to me. Well stated.

 

[CentralFLJames]

God is outside of time, and so He can answer prayers made after a person’s death. That doesn’t mean a damned person can become undamned, but it means that the prayers may have been able to bring the person to, at the moment of death and past such time as it would be recognizable, repent and accept God’s forgiveness.

For example, I pray daily for Adolf Hitler and several other ne’er-do-wells. I can’t change the choices he made in his life, but its possible my prayers might have benefited him at the moment of death.

Peace and God bless

Thanks Lazerlike - this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.

I have prayed to God for Judas conditional on it not being a blasphemy to ask for his forgiveness and to grant him the grace to repent just before the instant he died.

James

 

[coda]

Thanks Lazerlike - this is EXACTLY what I had in mind.

I have prayed to God for Judas conditional on it not being a blasphemy to ask for his forgiveness and to grant him the grace to repent just before the instant he died.

James

Our “finite” human minds have not been elevated by God to understand TIME in an " infinite’ manner. It is certainly possible that God can apply the merits of prayers that have been said, and that WILL BE said for an individual. Time isnt in chrono"logical" order for God. We do know that Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better{for Judas} if he {Judas} had not even been born. Only God knows, but our prayers are constantly full of merit to be applied as God sees fit.

 

[Ron_Conte]

"On the Beatific Vision of God
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336

"By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following…

“Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell.”

Anyone who has died, in the past, in a state of actual mortal sin, certainly goes to Hell forever. Prayers for such persons cannot change their eternal final destination.

If you pray for someone in the past, asking God to give them grace prior to their death, then perhaps they received that grace, since God is beyond time. But their eternal destination cannot change; either they died in a state of actual mortal sin and went to Hell, or they died in a state of grace and went to Heaven (perhaps by way of Purgatory).

There is no opportunity for the grace of conversion from actual mortal sin after the last moment of life.

 

[TheDoctor]

Hi James. Very deep question and wonderful responses. As for me, since we are all sinners and hence “worthy of Hell” but saved by Christ, I just keep it simple and pray. If the person is in Heaven (does not need my prayers) or Hell (cannot use my prayers) I trust God will apply any graces my prayers merit to those in purgatory.

I know that it may seem like the Church never prays “for a past time”, but I was thinking that during the greatest prayer of the Church, the Mass, we are transported out of time and are present at Calvary at the foot of the Cross during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. So in effect, everything is in the “future”.

PS to my brothers and sisters who pray for Hitler and Judas - God Bless You!. Praying for an enemy is still tough for me, so thanks for the great example.

 

[CentralFLJames]

"On the Beatific Vision of God
Constitution issued by Pope Benedict XII in 1336

"By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following…

“Moreover we define that according to the general disposition of God, the souls of those who die in actual mortal sin go down into hell immediately (mox) after death and there suffer the pain of hell.”

Anyone who has died, in the past, in a state of actual mortal sin, certainly goes to Hell forever. Prayers for such persons cannot change their eternal final destination.

If you pray for someone in the past, asking God to give them grace prior to their death, then perhaps they received that grace, since God is beyond time. But their eternal destination cannot change; either they died in a state of actual mortal sin and went to Hell, or they died in a state of grace and went to Heaven (perhaps by way of Purgatory).

There is no opportunity for the grace of conversion from actual mortal sin after the last moment of life.

Agree Ron.

It seems to be the consensus here that God being timeless, and prayer also being timeless by association (and never wasted and never subject to decay in heaven), that The Church through the authorities of the keys implied in loosing and binding (e.g. in Matthew 16:19-20) grants us an ability to petition God to open a channel of salvific grace from one time to another to benefit, God willing, anyone, up to the moment of their actual death. At least no one in The Church episcopate seems to be saying we can’t try. I know however that its improper to speculate deeper that The Church could actually use the sacrament of repentance for distant posthumous forgiveness since the rites require a personal act of contrition by verbal or physically present assent; and such a thing would violate the defines of Papal declaration mentioned. But then again we do have the anointing of the sick and the rite of Extreme Unction for those too sick to speak. Hmmmm, interesting…

But this notion of retroactive prayer appears to be as valid as forward looking prayer since it does not appear to be inconsistent at all with any current dogma nor does it effect physical phenomena to alter the past (since the final state of one’s soul is observable only to God) in a way that would cause side effects and anomalies to physical history. So I can’t even imagine Science objecting.

Of course we can’t know the actual mechanism God might use. But I imagine the petition is no different than how we currently pray for the living or for a future outcome. That is all we would do is petition God to extend His Mercy and grace on a deceased person in a manner consistent with His Justice to inspire the person to make an act of contrition and repentance by desire (in extremis) before they died. Of course God might not consent if he knows in His omnipotence that the person will remain unreceptive in his past life to that grace or if the the request is inconsistent with His Justice or Divine Will. In either event God does what He wills and we assume our prayers still deposit to the benefit of the spiritual treasury of The Church.

This is starting to get intriguing. I have since discovered that there’s a general category of theory in this area called “Retroactive Prayer”. I just discovered some actual medical/scientific studies conducted to ascertain if retroactive prayer produced a measurable scientific beneficial outcome. From what I have read it sounds like medical science is well on its way to proving within a certain probability that Retroactive Prayer works (though I can’t find the published confidence intervals). This to me also has intriguing possibilities through inference science may be able to someday prove God exists (albeit perhaps only within a certain small probability of certainty). Now I am beginning to wonder if we should worry that if science does proves God exists beyond a reasonable doubt we may not get the greater blessing implied in Jesus’ message to Thomas in John 20:29: *“Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.” *

Original Info Here: Retroactive prayer: a preposterous hypothesis?
Leibovici published an intriguing study questioning conventional notions of time, space, prayer, consciousness, and causality.8 The randomised, controlled, double blind, parallel group study (prayer versus no prayer) included 3393 septic patients and considered the hypothesis that “retroactive” prayer, offered 4-10 years later, affects outcomes. **Of the preselected outcomes, mortality was similar in both groups, yet length of stay in hospital and duration of fever were shorter with prayer **(P = 0.01 and P = 0.04). Leibovici, with humour befitting his style, concluded that remote, retroactive intercessory prayer should be considered for clinical practice.

James

 

[BlaineTog]

We don’t know who’s damned, so pray that they were saved.

 

[fbl9]

this is kinda off the OP but may i ask since when one dies their soul is now in eternity,how can there be a “time” period in purgatory? i am in no way denying the doctrine of purgatory.just trying to wrap my tiny mind around enternity and time. BTW blaine tog i really like that sign. of yours.LOL.

 

[CentralFLJames]

this is kinda off the OP but may i ask since when one dies their soul is now in eternity,how can there be a “time” period in purgatory? i am in no way denying the doctrine of purgatory.just trying to wrap my tiny mind around enternity and time. BTW blaine tog i really like that sign. of yours.LOL.

It is now conceptualized in the modern church more as a “spiritual state” than it is a place with time. But our saints have many visions and actual visitations that express the spiritual state as a combination of very intense suffering combined with a comforting joy of the knowledge of certain salvation. Essentially their suffering is said to be a severe supernatural pining to be with God since they can hear Him but are not yet pure enough to approach His magnificence without trembling in fear of unworthiness (think of the soul as aware of its nakedness before God after sinning in the Garden of Eden).

The old associated indulgence days/times were often mistakenly thought by contemporary laity to refer to the time in purgatory rather than the time on earth necessary for repentance as in the days of the early church. That has all now been simplified. Now we just have the notion of full plenary indulgences and partial indulgences (with God “doing the right thing” on the degree of partiality).

Curiously though, some of the visions and accounts of the Church Saints suggest that there is a relative correlation of earth time to “the state” of progression of a soul in purgatory. This is useful for those of us here on earth in the Church Militant to relate relative progress in relationship to our concept of mortal life and earth life-time. Not to shock at the severity implied by one account I read - but a Carmelita nun indicates that on average departed sisters from her order (known to be very pious) required 40 years of equivalent earth time purgation to transition to heaven without aid of intercession!! But this was expressed only to give a relative gauge of the merits of mass to aid the progress of the soul. The same account indicates that offertory mass and prayerful indulgences progresses the same soul orders of magnitude faster than with no help whatsoever from the laity. Also, some indications are that quite a few souls are sentenced to purgatory till the end of time at the 2nd coming to drive home the need to pray for these.

Bottom Line - Pray for the souls of purgatory daily and especially do the mass intentions and the many different indulgences - especially those that have a full plenary grace like the next big one on Divine Mercy Sunday (first week after Easter).

James

 

[Joe_Kelley]

this is kinda off the OP but may i ask since when one dies their soul is now in eternity,how can there be a “time” period in purgatory? . . …

Time seems to depend on, and be basic to, change and sequence. Rate of change gives us a quantitative time while sequence of events gives only a qualitive measure. [If one gets into the Theory of Relativity, quatitative time gets rather slippery, but sequences remain in order - effects never preceed the event that caused them whatever frame you view them in.]

When we die we leave both time and space behind. the non-physical soul requires neither. However, the soul is purified in purgatory, thus must change. The rate of that change would seem to require/provide something akin to time.

Likewise in Heaven experiences must occur in some sequence; one is not frozen in a tableau. This sequence provides a qualitative time. Especially our risen bodies, as physical entities will require something akin to space and time to function as bodies.

I suspect the new space and time may be quite different from what we experience now [though I can’t completely get my mind around time now.] These will be the New Heavens and New Earth promised someplace in the Bible.

Just my speculations.

 

[fbl9]

thanks Joe Kelley and CentralIFJames for your replies,they helped my understanding in this a lot.