Is it :thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not murder?

  • Thread starter Thread starter maria_rose
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

maria_rose

Guest
The fifth commandment says translated in the NAB as “you shall not kill.”
I’ve read in Dr. Laura Schlessinger’s " the ten commandments"
That in the torah it is called :“thou shalt not murder!”
That makes for an interesting question:
According to Church teaching Is all killing breaking the fith commandment or only deliberate murder?
Your thoughts and comments please!
 
I think the better translation for 2007 is: “You will not murder.”
 
maria_rose said:
The fifth commandment says translated in the NAB as “you shall not kill.”
I’ve read in Dr. Laura Schlessinger’s " the ten commandments"
That in the torah it is called :“thou shalt not murder!”
That makes for an interesting question:
According to Church teaching Is all killing breaking the fith commandment or only deliberate murder?
Your thoughts and comments please!
Click to expand...
According to Church teaching, only deliberate murder is prohibited. Catholic moral teaching does not consider capital punishment or just war immoral in and of themselves (i.e. intrinsically).
 
porthos11 said:
According to Church teaching, only deliberate murder is prohibited. Catholic moral teaching does not consider capital punishment or just war immoral in and of themselves (i.e. intrinsically).
Click to expand...
How does the church determine whether a war is just or not? Just honest curiosity here, no negetive tone intented.
 
nichjake said:
How does the church determine whether a war is just or not? Just honest curiosity here, no negetive tone intented.
Click to expand...
Catechism 2309
Code: 
                            The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration.                                 The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy.                                 At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
    These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine. The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
Click to expand...
 
It’s thou shall not murder. The killing of someone who is innocent is forbidded.
 
nichjake said:
How does the church determine whether a war is just or not? Just honest curiosity here, no negetive tone intented.
Click to expand...
Short answer: The Church doesn’t determine if a war is just or not.
2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
Click to expand...
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
Click to expand...
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
Click to expand...
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
Click to expand...
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
Click to expand...
These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
Click to expand...
**The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. **
Click to expand...
(My emphasis)

The government officials who make the decision must apply this doctrine – neither the Church nor the ordinary citizen has access to the information the government has.
 
Okay, it’s: you shall not murder.
That would make capital punishment acceptable.
But isn’t the death penalty legalized murder of a human being?
Even murderers Are human beings in the image of Christ, although they comitted evil.
This is where I struggle. I personally am in favor of the death penalty for violent crimes, but kee p thinking wether I am right on this.
What about the person hired by the state to administer the death penalty. Does he commit murder as a job?
How can anyone justify to themselves working a job like that?:confused:
Please help me out here!
Thanks and God love you!
 
maria_rose said:
Okay, it’s: you shall not murder.
That would make capital punishment acceptable.
But isn’t the death penalty legalized murder of a human being?
Click to expand...
No. The death penalty is the legal execution of a duly-convicted heinous criminal – in this country, certainly. Elaborate safeguards are employed to ensure no innocent person is convicted – to the point that many people sentneced to death grow old on death row.

Remember, the right to life includes the right to self-defense. The Church recognizes that the execution of a duly-convicted may be necessary to protect the rest of us – a form of collective self defense.
 
If one wants to stop all forms of capital punishment, one needs to remove guns from the hands of the police. Furthermore, one would need to stop even SWAT teams and other such agents of the governments.

It seems to me that one would even have to stop our army and navy and the rest of our armed forces.

I know that our faith says capital punishment is good.

I know it is useful.

Pope John Paul the second spoke against it.

I think the reason he wanted to stop capital punishment was to yell: “If criminals cannot be executed, then don’t execute babies.”

After all, babies come from the heart of God.

After all, what is the most loving thing one can do for one’s unborn baby?

You “love” about it!!!
 
ratsach

This is the one Hebrew word that is translated: Thou shalt not murder.

Personally, I believe in 2007 the proper English is: “You will not murder.”

It is a promise: one day you will be filled with new hearts and new love. Then you will be enveloped in My love. Were there was hate, God will place love. Were there was lust, God will place and make chastity grow. Just read the saints.

In the Old Testament faith meant: fidelity to a promise. This is for both sides. Now with our new hearts and His love poured into our new hearts, we can love. After all we are His kids. He makes that love grow. The farmer that plants the field, the crop grows and the farmer does not know how. We grow in love and we do not know how. The mystery of love.

I think one might feel confused because in the New Testament murder is explained like adultery, that is, in one’s heart.

Thus anger is considered murder and lust is considered adultery.

Also, I believe that the Ten Words reveal God’s heart.

God is life: You will not murder, either Old Testament or New Testament definitions. The commandments are promises.

God is fidelity: You will not do adultery.

God is love: You will not hate.

God’s love is poured into our hearts.

God’s love is poured into our new hearts.

We are now children of God.

With our new hearts and His love, we can be lilke the great saints.

God does the work, the mystery of love.
❤️ ☘️
 
Seamus_Sully said:
If one wants to stop all forms of capital punishment, one needs to remove guns from the hands of the police. Furthermore, one would need to stop even SWAT teams and other such agents of the governments.

It seems to me that one would even have to stop our army and navy and the rest of our armed forces.

I know that our faith says capital punishment is good.

I know it is useful.

Pope John Paul the second spoke against it.

I think the reason he wanted to stop capital punishment was to yell: “If criminals cannot be executed, then don’t execute babies.”

After all, babies come from the heart of God.

After all, what is the most loving thing one can do for one’s unborn baby?

You “love” about it!!!
Click to expand...
I personally think he spoke out against it because the fact is we don’t have the right to kill someone unless they are DIRECTLY endangering the lives of others and/or ourselves at the time we kill them. That is why it is fine for the Police/Army/Navy to step in and shoot someone if they think that person has a gun and is going to use it, because self defense is not Capital Punishement for a crime, it IS saving others or yourself directly, not punishing someone as an afterthought(which is Capital Punishment).

Also how do we know Capital Punishment has punished the right person? How many countless cases have there been where we killed a man we later found out was innocent? That is why capital punishement is morally wrong and the Pope spoke out against it. We can’t kill the innocent, we therefore can’t kill the unborn, and we can’t kill people because we think they wronged. Like all other doctrines, our understanding of the same laws set by god has significantly evolved especially since Jesus came along and reinterpreted it for us… He told us not to kill those we hate, even sinners who have committed murder.
 
The commandment is ‘You shall not murder’,
but the ideal that we strive for is ‘You shall not kill.’

We ought to have a society where there are no serious crimes and
therefore no need for killing in self-defense, or capital punishment.
We ought to have a society where war is unnecessary.

Concerning the text of the Bible. In the Hebrew, the word used
means ‘murder’. In the Latin, the word used in Exodus means ‘kill’ (occides)
But in the Latin New Testament, Jesus cites this commandment
by using the word for murder (homicidium) in Mt 19:18.

Ron Conte
 
maria_rose said:
Okay, it’s: you shall not murder.
That would make capital punishment acceptable.
But isn’t the death penalty legalized murder of a human being?
Even murderers Are human beings in the image of Christ, although they comitted evil.
!
Click to expand...
what Dr Laura actually said is that the Torah says
Thou shalt not murder an innocent person.

Whether or not this is what the Torah says should be the topic of this thread, and the answer should come from someone familiar with the words in the original Hebrew.

If, in fact, that is the wording, and I have no idea, a convicted felon is not an innocent person, nor is a person in the act of committing a violent crime.

Please reference the Catechism of The Catholic Church, searchable online at usccb.org or catholicity.com for both Catholic interpretation of the 5th commandment and teaching based on that commandment, as well as just war doctrine.
 
I seem to recall hearing an Orthodox Jewish scholar some time ago explaining that the word in Hebrew meant something to the effect of “kill in a predatory manner.”
 
porthos11 said:
Catechism 2309
Click to expand...
Does the church make a war by war determination? Or does it simply set forth the criteria and leave it at that?

Has it issued a ruling on the war in Iraq? Or the Sudan?

A follow up question. If a war is found not to be just, does that necessarily mean that all the killing done in the war is murder?

thanks.
 
Valke2 said:
Does the church make a war by war determination?
Click to expand...
The Church does not make war, period.
Valke2 said:
Or does it simply set forth the criteria and leave it at that?
Click to expand...
The Church’s moral teaching sets the criteria for Just War, but leaves the determination to the public officials charged with such matters.
Valke2 said:
Has it issued a ruling on the war in Iraq? Or the Sudan?
Click to expand...
The Church does not “issue rulings” on wars.
Valke2 said:
A follow up question. If a war is found not to be just, does that necessarily mean that all the killing done in the war is murder?

thanks.
Click to expand...
Public officials are charged to do their duty. Citizens are charged to do their duty. If both act in good faith, there is no sin. If either acts in bad faith, that person sins.
 
What is commonly called the 10 commandments are really categories of commandments/mitzvahs, rather than commandments in and of themselves. An example is that the mitzvah to not stand by while a person’s life is in danger would fall under the “don’t murder” category.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top