Is it time we welcome the gay community to ours?

[Prodigal_Son]

Everyone who is in mortal sin should be denied communion. The difference is that we should deny ourselves unless our sin is somehow “public” in nature and then a priest can deny. But every Catholic should be taught the rules for reception of our Lord or else we are inviting them to sin further. While it would not be the place of any lay Catholic to physically stop or deny someone from receiving our Lord, we can and should be vocal and educational on who may receive it and why. Which may include the phrase: Practicing homosexuals may not receive the Lord in the Eucharist. Is saying that denying someone? Not physically but we are telling someone they can’t do something. My guess is that somebody will take offence. Just as they did when Jesus said hard teachings. But that does not mean we run after them saying we didn’t mean it. But rather we can lead them where we should lead our loved ones and ourselves when we sin. To the confessional. A sacrament that is too often forgotten. I don’t hear too many homosexuals complaining that the door to the confessional was closed to them because of their lifestyle.

Well, first of all, unless you are close friends with someone, I think it is out of line for you to say anything to them that implies that they shouldn’t be receiving communion.

But secondly, I’m fine with those in mortal sin being denied communion.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well, first of all, unless you are close friends with someone, I think it is out of line for you to say anything to them that implies that they shouldn’t be receiving communion.

But secondly, I’m fine with those in mortal sin being denied communion.

Unless I am close friends with someone I would not know another’s sin. Unless they chose to broadcast it to me. But why would someone do that?

I agree personally. But when catechising people in the faith we must talk about it. Educate about it. Otherwise how would anyone be able to form a conscience at all?

Like I said, there is no public clamoring on being denied the confessional. I wonder why that is.

 

[frobert]

But when catechising people in the faith we must talk about it. Educate about it. Otherwise how would anyone be able to form a conscience at all?.

If a person has no objections to your catechizing then it is ok otherwise some might consider it rude and unchristian.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I disagree. I think you’re confusing cultural norms for universal truths. But even if you’re right, wanting sexual expression in a relationship puts you in the near occasion of mortal sin, but it does not mean you have mortally sinned.
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I want to explore this further as well. Firstly you cannot say that someone is NOT in mortal sin. You do not have that power. But second, lets look at the idea that wanting unholy sexual expression is not a mortal sin. I think we all agree that the 10 commandments are the very minimum of ascertaining mortal sin. The 9th commandment forbids coveting of a neighbor’s spouse. Not acting on it, that is the 6th. But rather desiring it. Then we have the words of Jesus that apply to heterosexual thoughts as well as homosexual. About lusting after someone with your thoughts is the same as adultery.

I would think the case could be made that desiring homosexual sex or lusting after it is indeed something that could place someone in mortal sin.
If I view pornography, and desire the woman in it, I am in mortal sin. I would go to confession before I received our Lord would I not? I mean, that is Catholic teaching right?

Look, I don’t care how the homosexual community feels about what God himself teaches. Our job is not to be a welcoming Church but rather to get to heaven and help our neighbor achieve the same. And we do no favors if we tuck under the rug, put in the back closet and just whisper about our moral laws. And that includes our Eucharist. If we sit back and allow someone to be in ignorance of the Law because we do not wish to scare them off, we take a liberty with their soul that God does not allow. I am not willing to answer to God at the end of my life why I was neglect in teaching my fellow man and allowing the Lord Himself to be abused, whipped, tortured and beaten.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I agree personally. But when catechising people in the faith we must talk about it. Educate about it. Otherwise how would anyone be able to form a conscience at all?

Oh, I’m fine with educating about it in catechizing people.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I want to explore this further as well. Firstly you cannot say that someone is NOT in mortal sin. You do not have that power. But second, lets look at the idea that wanting unholy sexual expression is not a mortal sin. I think we all agree that the 10 commandments are the very minimum of ascertaining mortal sin. The 9th commandment forbids coveting of a neighbor’s spouse. Not acting on it, that is the 6th. But rather desiring it. Then we have the words of Jesus that apply to heterosexual thoughts as well as homosexual. About lusting after someone with your thoughts is the same as adultery.

I would think the case could be made that desiring homosexual sex or lusting after it is indeed something that could place someone in mortal sin.
If I view pornography, and desire the woman in it, I am in mortal sin. I would go to confession before I received our Lord would I not? I mean, that is Catholic teaching right?

But a person can find another person attractive without lusting after them. Lust is a decision of the will, and homosexuals have as much power as heterosexuals to resist making this decision.

Look, I don’t care how the homosexual community feels about what God himself teaches. Our job is not to be a welcoming Church but rather to get to heaven and help our neighbor achieve the same.

You can take that up with Pope Francis, bro. Good luck with that.

And we do no favors if we tuck under the rug, put in the back closet and just whisper about our moral laws. And that includes our Eucharist. If we sit back and allow someone to be in ignorance of the Law because we do not wish to scare them off, we take a liberty with their soul that God does not allow. I am not willing to answer to God at the end of my life why I was neglect in teaching my fellow man and allowing the Lord Himself to be abused, whipped, tortured and beaten.

This is a false dilemma. You can be welcoming **and **intolerant of sin. It’s being presumptuous that is the problem.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If a person has no objections to your catechizing then it is ok otherwise some might consider it rude and unchristian.

Which brings up another topic. What responsibility does the Church and the members have to catechize. We are talking about some generic homosexual sitting in Mass and being made to feel welcome. At some point it is our responsibility and the Church’s responsibility to educate them in the faith. So much so that we require classes for this to even recieve Communion. So, a practising homosexual who does not know or is not educated in the faith needs to become educated in the faith to be welcome in the sacraments. And that education needs to address and minister that person’s sin.

So if I am an RCIA instructor, or a confirmation teacher, or even just helping a poorly catechized returning Catholic we must minister where it is needed. It is so easy to go up to someone and say, hey, “if you just murdered someone, you need to go to confession and stop” It is harder to say, hey, “if you just engaged in homosexual sex, you need to go to confession and stop doing it.” But a soul is endangered in either case.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But a person can find another person attractive without lusting after them. Lust is a decision of the will, and homosexuals have as much power as heterosexuals to resist making this decision.

You can take that up with Pope Francis, bro. Good luck with that.

This is a false dilemma. You can be welcoming **and **intolerant of sin. It’s being presumptuous that is the problem.

1. That is not what you said. You said:

But even if you’re right, **wanting sexual expression in a relationship **puts you in the near occasion of mortal sin, but it does not mean you have mortally sinned.

That is a great definition of lust.

1. I am not at odds iwth the Pope. Not only that but insinuating that I am is not very welcoming. I think you are misunderstand what I am and Pope Francis is saying. The Pope himself is not very welcoming to many people. Women ordination supporters, ultratraditionalists, marxists, and people who voted for Regan on economic policies, and Including those who want homosexual marriage. people seem to forget that. But I guess this is the Pope of whatever each person wants him to be:shrug:
2. I am not talking about being presumptuous. Who is talking of that?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

So if I am an RCIA instructor, or a confirmation teacher, or even just helping a poorly catechized returning Catholic we must minister where it is needed. It is so easy to go up to someone and say, hey, “if you just murdered someone, you need to go to confession and stop” It is harder to say, hey, “if you just engaged in homosexual sex, you need to go to confession and stop doing it.” But a soul is endangered in either case.

Do you really think such an encounter would ever cause anyone to change?

That’s not catechesis. That’s insulting another person’s intelligence. The likelihood that someone in the modern world does not know that Catholics officially teach gay sex is immoral is infinitesimal.

I agree that we need a better way to catechize Catholics in the pews, but approaching them and accusing them is not the way!

 

[Brendan]

But my entire point is that we don’t know that these people are committing mortal sin. Presumptuously accusing someone does not tend to bring them to Christ.

One thing to keep in mind is that mortal sin is only one reason that a person should be denied Holy Communion.

The other one actually has nothing to do with the state of one’s soul, but rather the public appearance of sin

That is reflected in Canon 915

Can. 915 Those upon whom the penalty of excommunication or interdict has been imposed or declared, and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin, are not to be admitted to holy communion

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For sin that is manifestly known and grave, there has to be a separation of the person from the circumstances of their sin.

For example, imagine there was a man who was unfaithful to his wife and left her for another woman. The became publically known. If the man repented, received absolution but still showed up for Mass with his mistress, he would properly be denied Communion. Even thought his soul was cleansed from the sin, he had not separated himself from the public circumstances of his sin.

It is the right and obligation of the Church to protect the Sacrament from scandal (the theological scandal, not the common usage)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

1. That is not what you said. You said:

But even if you’re right, wanting sexual expression in a relationship puts you in the near occasion of mortal sin, but it does not mean you have mortally sinned.

That is a great definition of lust.

No, it’s not. Lust is the indulgence of desire, in terms of mental activity. Merely wanting is not coveting, nor lusting. Otherwise, it would be incoherent to say that a person experiences temptation without sinning.

1. I am not at odds iwth the Pope. Not only that but insinuating that I am is not very welcoming. I think you are misunderstand what I am and Pope Francis is saying. The Pope himself is not very welcoming to many people. Women ordination supporters, ultratraditionalists, marxists, and people who voted for Regan on economic policies, and Including those who want homosexual marriage.

False. He is welcoming to all of those people. He wants them in the Church. He wants to talk with them and understand them. He doesn’t want their views to prevail, of course. You can disagree with a person’s views without being unwelcoming.

1. I am not talking about being presumptuous. Who is talking of that?

To assume a gay person is fornicating is being presumptuous.

 

[frobert]

Do you really think such an encounter would ever cause anyone to change?

That’s not catechesis. That’s insulting another person’s intelligence. The likelihood that someone in the modern world does not know that Catholics officially teach gay sex is immoral is infinitesimal.

I agree that we need a better way to catechize Catholics in the pews, but approaching them and accusing them is not the way!

You are right, confrontation does not work but does have unintended consequences.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

One thing to keep in mind is that mortal sin is only one reason that a person should be denied Holy Communion.

The other one actually has nothing to do with the state of one’s soul, but rather the public appearance of sin

That is reflected in Canon 915

.

For sin that is manifestly known and grave, there has to be a separation of the person from the circumstances of their sin.

For example, imagine there was a man who was unfaithful to his wife and left her for another woman. The became publically known. If the man repented, received absolution but still showed up for Mass with his mistress, he would properly be denied Communion. Even thought his soul was cleansed from the sin, he had not separated himself from the public circumstances of his sin.

It is the right and obligation of the Church to protect the Sacrament from scandal (the theological scandal, not the common usage)

I’m fine with all of this, and I don’t think it changes what I’ve been saying much at all. Thanks for the clarification, though!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No, it’s not. Lust is the indulgence of desire, in terms of mental activity. Merely wanting is not coveting, nor lusting. Otherwise, it would be incoherent to say that a person experiences temptation without sinning.

False. He is welcoming to all of those people. He wants them in the Church. He wants to talk with them and understand them. He doesn’t want their views to prevail, of course. You can disagree with a person’s views without being unwelcoming.

To assume a gay person is fornicating is being presumptuous.

1. Says you. But you are not a confessor are you? It is quite presumptuous of you to say what does NOT constitute lust in this situation. You have not even attempted to address not only the 9th commandment but the 6th and what Jesus says about the 6th. If I desire a sexual relationship with my neighbors wife, even if she is my friend, I am sinning.
2. Not true again. Pope Francis has excommunicated someone. ANd called people silly who have those ideas. That may not be welcoming. I’m sure you, I and The Pope wants every single person alive in the Church. But that does not mean we all fit your narrow view of what is “welcoming”
3. Where did I assume that?

 

[Captain_America]

But my entire point is that we don’t know that these people are committing mortal sin. Presumptuously accusing someone does not tend to bring them to Christ.

I agree. I thought you were referring to the situation a while back in which a woman who told a priest she was an active lesbian was denied communion. Priest made the right call there.

I think, in parsing through all these comments, there is a ton of fury from homosexuals, self-righteous indignation. . . which is hard for heterosexuals to “validate” since it all sounds so much like “leave me, and my cherished sin, alone.”

I wonder where these values----the treasuring of this perversity—comes from, if not the media. What portion of the public just mirrors the TV blast?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You are right, confrontation does not work but does have unintended consequences.

So what does work?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I agree. I thought you were referring to the situation a while back in which a woman who told a priest she was an active lesbian was denied communion. Priest made the right call there.

I have no dispute.

 

[frobert]

So what does work?

I have an appointment in a few mins so I will give you the short answer.

What does work? Good Example

 

[Prodigal_Son]

1. Says you. But you are not a confessor are you? It is quite presumptuous of you to say what does NOT constitute lust in this situation. You have not even attempted to address not only the 9th commandment but the 6th and what Jesus says about the 6th. If I desire a sexual relationship with my neighbors wife, even if she is my friend, I am sinning.

Whatever. All I meant was that people can be tempted to sexual actions with one another without being in mortal sin. If you disagree, you have an issue with the Church, not me.

1. Not true again. Pope Francis has excommunicated someone. ANd called people silly who have those ideas. That may not be welcoming. I’m sure you, I and The Pope wants every single person alive in the Church. But that does not mean we all fit your narrow view of what is “welcoming”

And what is my narrow view of what is welcoming, pray tell?

1. Where did I assume that?

You were arguing, if I recall, that gay couples should be denied communion, even if we do not know that they are fornicating. Forgive me if I’m recalling incorrectly.

 

[YosefYosep]

The Church isn’t about being hip. The Church isn’t just going to change its intrinsic values in an attempt to be more popular.