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Fr_of_Jazz
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Even if that is true, again, the problem is that a romantic attraction to a member of the same sex and the pursuit of a relationship based on it as a couple are both still contrary to nature. If such a couple shows up in church as a couple based on this romantic attraction, that then becomes a public statement affirming such a romance. Since it is in fact against nature, how can the church affirm it?
On the other hand, if you are talking about two men or women who have a homosexual orientation and who are friends like any other heterosexual men or women and that is the relationship they telegraph, who could have a problem with that.
I’m not sure I get this brinksmanship–or so it seems to me. If one with SSAs is seeking to live chastely and not based on the SSA, why push for legitimizing homosexual romance at all? why not just chaste friendships?
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Scoochy
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You may wish to have a conversation with God for being insane, primitive, uneducated, & superstitious.
“Leviticus 20:13
If any one lie with a man as with a woman, both have committed an abomination, let them be put to death: their blood be upon them.
Leviticus 20:12-14 (in Context) Leviticus 20 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations”
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=abomination&qs_version=DRA
"Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor as the son of man, that he should be changed. Hath he said then, and will he not do? hath he spoken, and will he not fulfill?
Numbers 23:18-20 (in Context) Numbers 23 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations"
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=i+do+not+change&qs_version=DRA
(Both verses are from the primitive Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)
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on_the_hill
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Prodigal_Son
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Little detail about myself: I’m married, with kids. I assure you I’m not posturing for a homosexual romance.
I’m here because I care about evangelizing gay people. I said that before, but you don’t seem to believe me.
Moreover, I’m not pushing for homosexual romances. I think they’re unhelpful, and in most cases sinful. I would never recommend a friend to enter into one; rather, I would encourage them to be in chaste friendships, as you say.
I’m really just concerned with not alienating people who are interested in the Catholic church.
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Prodigal_Son
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They sell clothing? Their advertisements certainly don’t suggest that.What about Dolce & Gabbana?!
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on_the_hill
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Well…o.k…I’ll give you that one…but practically everything else…They sell clothing? Their advertisements certainly don’t suggest that.
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Fr_of_Jazz
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OK, fair enough.Little detail about myself: I’m married, with kids. I assure you I’m not posturing for a homosexual romance.
I’m here because I care about evangelizing gay people. I said that before, but you don’t seem to believe me.
Moreover, I’m not pushing for homosexual romances. I think they’re unhelpful, and in most cases sinful. I would never recommend a friend to enter into one; rather, I would encourage them to be in chaste friendships, as you say.
I’m really just concerned with not alienating people who are interested in the Catholic church.
So you’re talking about people who are not Catholic, but interested in the CC. Communion, then, wouldn’t be an issue as much as how they are treated. Are the given the respect and dignity that all people should be accorded?
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JB_Dugan
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This is really noble, Prod. I admire you. I think that evangelizing gay people is probably the most difficult form of evangelizing.Little detail about myself: I’m married, with kids. I assure you I’m not posturing for a homosexual romance.
I’m here because I care about evangelizing gay people. I said that before, but you don’t seem to believe me.
Moreover, I’m not pushing for homosexual romances. I think they’re unhelpful, and in most cases sinful. I would never recommend a friend to enter into one; rather, I would encourage them to be in chaste friendships, as you say.
I’m really just concerned with not alienating people who are interested in the Catholic church.
I would hope your evangelizing includes factual references to the teachings of the Church about homosexuality.
I knew an RCIA director who told a gay couple that their relationship was “OK” in the eyes of the Church as long as they were committed to each other and remained true. She encouraged them to finish the RCIA process and become Catholic because, according to her, with more and more gays joining the Church…it would soon have to change its stand on same sex marriage.
Needless to say the couple were shocked when they learned truth. They were confused and disgusted with the Catholic Church. They understandably felt as if they had been had.
I don’t know if that couple would have joined the Church if they knew the truth or not. It was apparent that they were both searching for some form of religion. They were both baptized Christians and felt a calling to return to something.
According to the RCIA director…she was just trying to be pastoral.
Gays who become Catholic or return to the faith…fully aware of what is expected of them are remarkable Catholics and will probably earn a special place in Heaven.
Good luck with your good work…I admire you…I don’t envy you.
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Prodigal_Son
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It seems to me that at least a large number of people who join the Church grew up Catholic, so they have already received, and communion would be an issue. But yes, I’m even more concerned with the way that gay people who come to Church are treated. For example, I’d much prefer that we let them call themselves “gay”, even if we have theological views that don’t give ontological status to homosexuality. And moreover, I want us to be vocally welcoming them, not by saying “You’re not a sinner” (like some heterodox churches), but by saying, “The Church is for sinners, so come on in!”
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Fr_of_Jazz
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All good, but sooner or later we have to say the Church is for repentant sinners. And explain what true repentance is.
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ishii
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Which is?
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Prodigal_Son
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Agreed.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I’m going duck hunting.
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Fr_of_Jazz
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The council of Trent’s definition is a good place to start. “Contrition, which holds the first place among the aforesaid acts of the penitent, is a sorrow of mind and a detestation for sin committed with the purpose of not sinning in the future.” (Session 14, Penance and Anointing, Chap 4)
The CCC, 1430: “Jesus’ call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, ‘sackcloth and ashes,’ fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion. Without this, such penances remain sterile and false; however, interior conversion urges expression in visible signs, gestures and works of penance.”
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Captain_America
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I’ll just add another squib so that we can keep this interminable and pointless thread going on in perpetuity.
IF you want an impact evangelizing, go talk to young people. That’s the bulk of the fallen away. . . and you will be more successful fishing in that pond than any other.
IF you want an impact evangelizing, go talk to young people. That’s the bulk of the fallen away. . . and you will be more successful fishing in that pond than any other.
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Fr_of_Jazz
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True! My experience in education confirms that as well.
One qualification. The baby boomers who grew up on share, care, and bear instead of the doctrine and practice of the Faith are often fertile ground too, especially those who still come to Mass.
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Prodigal_Son
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Any suggestions where I can find young people to talk to? For the most part, young people with same-sex attraction hide until they’re in their 20s, and then don’t go to churches anymore. It’s not clear to me where the evangelistic opportunities are. I mean, I could go to gay bars, but somehow I’m not thinking that would be helpful for me.
I do teach ethics at a university, so I can indirectly talk about some of this stuff in my classes. But the real fertile ground for evangelism will come when the Church makes it clear that being gay (or SSA, or whatever) is nothing to be ashamed of. Then young people will feel that they can come to a church group for people with SSA, and not be ashamed.
As it is, I doubt many people under 30 join Courage.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Are you being serious? You are a university teacher and you are struggling with where to find young people to evangelize. I’m sure you probably want to keep your job so you may be limited in class but I do want to point out that people used to lose more than their jobs to spread the gospel. But you do not have to be a martyr, You could get involved with local Catholic college groups. But really what I have found working with the youth is that later in life they do not know why the Church teaches what it teaches or even what the Church teaches. And this is a simple thing that you can do. Go to your parish or a local parish and volunteer in the youth program. I can guarantee that if you are a small group leader and ask the question “what do you not understand about Catholic Teaching?” That you will get homosexual themed questions which you could use to clarify and state correct Church teaching to not only strait kids but gay ones and ones that might “come out in their 20s” And at the very least you can educate future Catholics on how to correctly state Church teaching when a relative or friend is gay later in their lives. Every single time I have asked the question in a group of more than 5 of “What do you want to understand about Catholic Teaching” Every single time. Every time. Homosexuals or homosexual marraige comes up. Kids are talking about this. And ESPECIALLY university kids are talking about this. It is one of the hottest issues of our day and it really should be like shooting fish in a barrell.Any suggestions where I can find young people to talk to? For the most part, young people with same-sex attraction hide until they’re in their 20s, and then don’t go to churches anymore. It’s not clear to me where the evangelistic opportunities are. I mean, I could go to gay bars, but somehow I’m not thinking that would be helpful for me.
I do teach ethics at a university, so I can indirectly talk about some of this stuff in my classes. But the real fertile ground for evangelism will come when the Church makes it clear that being gay (or SSA, or whatever) is nothing to be ashamed of. Then young people will feel that they can come to a church group for people with SSA, and not be ashamed.
As it is, I doubt many people under 30 join Courage.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
In light of current events perhaps the thread should be titles how can we welcome the Christian community to our gay culture.
Since when did GLAAD become a fringe group? I thought it was a pretty credible mainstream group representing a large portion of gays. But they seem pretty hostile and militant when it comes to Christian teaching on homosexuality.
Since when did GLAAD become a fringe group? I thought it was a pretty credible mainstream group representing a large portion of gays. But they seem pretty hostile and militant when it comes to Christian teaching on homosexuality.
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