Is it true that the Catholic church is the true Christian church?

[damian_clarke]

The best answer is that the Catholic Church is universal. I was in Johannesburg on business a few weeks ago and for old times sake went to Sunday mass at my old student Parish in Braamfontein. Thank goodnees I got their early otherwise there would have been no parking. I was the only white South African there. Yet the African congregation spoke every langauge under the sun. They were locals , they came from the Congo, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Ethipopia, Zambia you name it. A wonderful spread of humanity from all over this great continent. The Roman Cathoic Church is for all humanity, not for narrow nationla groups like the Protestant Churches and even some of our Eastern brothers. Christ came for us all, and I see that in Roman Catholicism.

 

[PJM]

=Charmaine8649;8684949]also, Is it wrong for me to feel that protestant churches are very conforming and do not follow their doctrines thoroughly.

I strongly believe in the Catholic faith

One should be aware that the term “Church” was first introduced by Jesus himslef in Mt. 16:15-19; where he appoints Peter to HEAD this “Church” that He jesus is founding.

One also needs to be aware that because the Bible was COMPLETELY 100% written by the End of the 1st. Century that EVERY Biblical reference to “church” speaks of and ONLY of todays CC. There were No OTHER CHURCHES IN EXISTENCE except those belonging to the CC.

Therefore it is clear and indispuitable that today’s CC is the Chrstian Church and the ONLY Church founded by Christ himself.

Not only do they "not follow there own doctines [your quote]m BUT they clearly do not FOLLOW GOD"S which is even more alarming and dangerous to thir salvation hopes.

God Bless you, Merry Christmas,
Pat

 

[CopticChristian]

I guess the answer depends on who you ask. Personally, I think it it is important to distinguish between the catholic (Universal Christian) Church from the (Roman) Catholic Church. The catholic Church includes all Christians of all stripes, including Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants.

A couple of things I learned in confirmation and later in seminary:

1. A Christian is **anyone who can affirm the three ecumenical creeds **(Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian)
2. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which **the Gospel **is rightly taught and the Sacraments are **rightly **administered. (Augsburg Confession Article VII:1)

So,

for clairty…if the Mormons and any other group affirms the 3 creeds you would say that they are christian. Who made this decision? Where would I find this teaching that was stated in time in the past and stated consistently by any group?

and

What is the gospel? State for me what you percieve the gospel to be.

What are the sacraments? How many? If they can be rightly administered tell me how that is done. If they are rightly administered tell me how they can be wrongly administered so that one can differentiate those that do not qualify according to your paradigm.

 

[CopticChristian]

One should be aware that the term “Church” was first introduced by Jesus himslef in Mt. 16:15-19; where he appoints Peter to HEAD this “Church” that He jesus is founding.

One also needs to be aware that because the Bible was COMPLETELY 100% written by the End of the 1st. Century that EVERY Biblical reference to “church” speaks of and ONLY of todays CC. There were No OTHER CHURCHES IN EXISTENCE except those belonging to the CC.

Therefore it is clear and indispuitable that today’s CC is the Chrstian Church and the ONLY Church founded by Christ himself.

Not only do they "not follow there own doctines [your quote]m BUT they clearly do not FOLLOW GOD"S which is even more alarming and dangerous to thir salvation hopes.

God Bless you, Merry Christmas,
Pat

The word Jesus introduced was Church…I will build my Church…but that literally means “house”…He will build His house for His family…and the term introduced does not equate to the notion that this is a novel idea…Paul writes, God speaks, that the Church, the house, is the mystery hidden for all ages…the Church/House…has always been there…hidden, not seen…the nascent Church/House began with Adam/Eve and became the OT Church/House that was then built into the Church/House by Jesus. The OT Church/House was one nation…and the NT Church/House is the worldwide Kingdom…the nascent Church/House like a mustard seed grew from one Nation to many Nations…thus Catholic…The Catholic Church is the completion and fruition of the OT Church/House…

 

[PJM]

=Paul theApostle;8694364]And what about the Church that God and the apostles founded

Dont you think we have to attend chuch also? and take Holy communion?

Both catholic and orthodox say they are the true church…

My dear friend in Christ,

Only One Jesus, founded ONLY One Church [the term actually was introduced for the first time in Mt. 16: where Jesus [GOD] chooses to give to Peter [Pope of the RCC] the keys to heaven and control of His One and ONLY Church. The Orthodox, God Bless them, are in Schism from the ONLY CHurch by their OWN choice; not God’s.

ON LY the Catholic Chjurch’s have the Seven Sacraments in their FULLNESS and TRUTH.

One “receives Holy Communion” because IT IS JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF: REALLY; TRULY AND SUBSTANUALLY PRESENT IN IHIS GLORFIED BODY-BLOOD -SOUL AND DIVINITY… THE COMPLETE AND REAL JEASUS.

We “receive” NOT “take” because it is From God, [the Father], of God [Jesus the Son] and By God [the Holy Spirit]. So mortal man has only a limited role [except for the Catholic priest whom God Chooses to use to make this miracle possible]. We are to Beleive, and to in humulity, accept and RECEIVE FROM God this Gift: this GRACE.

What the CC teaches, believes and practives is Biblically founded and supported.

Merry Christmas,

Pat

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by LutheranSemGuy
I guess the answer depends on who you ask. Personally, I think it it is important to distinguish between the catholic (Universal Christian) Church from the (Roman) Catholic Church. The catholic Church includes all Christians of all stripes, including Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants.

A couple of things I learned in confirmation and later in seminary:

1. A Christian is anyone who can affirm the three ecumenical creeds (Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian)

1. The Church is the congregation of saints, in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered. (Augsburg Confession Article VII:1)

***My dear brother in Christ,

I hate to disagree on the Eve of the Birth of our One God; who the Bible tells us founded ONLY his One Church and accepts ONLY HIS One set of Faith beliefs.

The Bible was 100% written by the end of the 1st. Century. At that point in time the ONLY “church” that existed on planet Earth is today’s Catholic Church. It does NOT by God’s Will; God’s desire or God’s permission include ANY other churches or faith beliefs.

Luther; a mortal man; choose to leave this One church and to found His Own because “he knew more, and knew better than our Divine and PERFECT God Himself.” Sounds kinda silly in that light does it not? And yet it is thee truth.

Show me where in the Bible that God even one-time approved of other sets of faith beliefs than His Own. Every reference to “church” speaks precisely and exclusively of the Catholic Church; NOT those in schism and not those founded by mere mortal men.:***shrug:

**Eph. 4: 1-7 “**I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, **eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit **in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, [ONLY ONE SET OF BELIEFS] one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift".

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. **So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” **

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [notably SINGULAR]built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

***I LONG for unity, but my friend it MUST come on God’s TERMS, not ours.:***thumbsup:

God Bless you, Merry Christmas,
Pat

 

[PJM]

=CopticChristian;8733290]The word Jesus introduced was Church…I will build my Church…but that literally means “house”…He will build His house for His family…and the term introduced does not equate to the notion that this is a novel idea…Paul writes, God speaks, that the Church, the house, is the mystery hidden for all ages…the Church/House…has always been there…hidden, not seen…the nascent Church/House began with Adam/Eve and became the OT Church/House that was then built into the Church/House by Jesus. The OT Church/House was one nation…and the NT Church/House is the worldwide Kingdom…the nascent Church/House like a mustard seed grew from one Nation to many Nations…thus Catholic…The Catholic Church is the completion and fruition of the OT Church/House…

**My friend I can certianly understand why you choose, as you, must to believe this. BUT the fact remains:

That the Bible was 100% written by the end of the 1st. Century. At that point in time and history he ONLY “church ” were Catholic Churches. Schism came later. So EVERY sibgle reference to “church” therefore must, and clearly does reference today’s Catholic church.The Bible was and remains a Catholic Book. Certainly it has a feference for those in Schism and those in one of the MANY mortal-men-made faiths; but that reference IF understood is to OBEY what God wants, desired, implemented and protects. Today;s Catholic Church**.

***Never -EVER has God approved of Schisms, or motal men creating easier to follow faiths built on saleability; not God’s truth.

God gives humanity ONLY two choices:

1. We are in charge
2. God is in charge.

Guess which one has a better chance to get US to heaven?***

Merry Christmas,
Pat

 

[mick321]

One should be aware that the term “Church” was first introduced by Jesus himslef in Mt. 16:15-19; where he appoints Peter to HEAD this “Church” that He jesus is founding.

Simply incorrect. One should be aware that the Douay-Rheims uses the term “church” in a generic sense, not as proper noun. The word “HEAD” does not appear within your citation.

One also needs to be aware that because the Bible was COMPLETELY 100% written by the End of the 1st. Century that EVERY Biblical reference to “church” speaks of and ONLY of todays CC. There were No OTHER CHURCHES IN EXISTENCE except those belonging to the CC.

One needs to be aware that in today’s usage, the term Catholic Church is normally applied to the Roman Catholic Church and those non-Roman churches who affirm the supremacy of the Pope of Rome. The modern Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century. If the word “catholic” or “pope” appear in the Bible, please provide the citation.

Therefore it is clear and indispuitable that today’s CC is the Chrstian Church and the ONLY Church founded by Christ himself.

In Acts of the Apostles, St. Luke clearly states that the disciples were first called “Christian” in Antioch [not Rome]. St. Peter established the Apostolic See in Antioch and served as its first bishop AD45-53.

Not only do they “not follow there own doctrines” [your quote] BUT they clearly do not FOLLOW GOD’S which is even more alarming and dangerous to their salvation hopes.

Where the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are preserved intact - without addition or deletion - is where one can find the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church today. Where they are not, everything is disputable.

God Bless you, Merry Christmas.
Pat

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Simply incorrect. One should be aware that the Douay-Rheims uses the term “church” in a generic sense, not as proper noun. The word “HEAD” does not appear within your citation.

Mick, in Matt 16 Jesus calls Simon son of Jonah Rock. And on him Jesus will bid Jesus’ church. Simon Peter will be the foundation of the church who can bind and loose.

One needs to be aware that in today’s usage, the term Catholic Church is normally applied to the Roman Catholic Church and those non-Roman churches who affirm the supremacy of the Pope of Rome. The modern Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century. If the word “catholic” or “pope” appear in the Bible, please provide the citation.

We don’t need the word “pope” to be in the Bible since the “idea” of the pope is explicit in Simon’s new name, his three-fold “feed the sheep” orders from Jesus, and elsewhere.

If we need a word or phrase to be explicit in Scripture than the doctrine of the Trinity should get thrown out. And I’m not about to do that.

Further, PJM’s point was that the only orthodox (note the lowercase “o”) Christians believed as Catholics do today. Most of the early heterodox groups believed things that no modern non-Catholic Christian would hold today, monophysitism, arianism, etc. The beliefs of the early Church are incompatible with the exclusive beliefs of modern Protestants.

In Acts of the Apostles, St. Luke clearly states that the disciples were first called “Christian” in Antioch [not Rome]. St. Peter established the Apostolic See in Antioch and served as its first bishop AD45-53.

…Aaaannnnnd then Peter went to Rome!

Where the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are preserved intact - without addition or deletion - is where one can find the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church today. Where they are not, everything is disputable.

Pretty much, . When one removes themselves from the authority that Christ gave to the Apostles orthodoxy suffers. Like denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, woman’s ordination, etc etc ad nauseum.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pMYZOc66Jmg/ToxbbnUGmnI/AAAAAAAAAB4/plIwF1tMlaI/s640/church-castle.jpg
picture courtesy of swordofpeter.blogspot.com/2011/09/dissent.html

 

[Cavaradossi]

Funny thing is that when those creeds were written, only one Church existed. Those creeds were developed by the Catholic Church, because there were no protestants or EO at that time.

Regarding #2, this would effectively eliminate any church that has no valid sacraments, no?

There were no Orthodox Christians at that time? That’s news to the Churches of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

 

[CopticChristian]

**My friend I can certianly understand why you choose, as you, must to believe this. BUT the fact remains:

That the Bible was 100% written by the end of the 1st. Century. At that point in time and history he ONLY “church ” were Catholic Churches. Schism came later. So EVERY sibgle reference to “church” therefore must, and clearly does reference today’s Catholic church.The Bible was and remains a Catholic Book**. Certainly it has a feference for those in Schism and those in one of the MANY mortal-men-made faiths; but that reference IF understood is to OBEY what God wants, desired, implemented and protects. Today;s Catholic Church.

***Never -EVER has God approved of Schisms, or motal men creating easier to follow faiths built on saleability; not God’s truth.

God gives humanity ONLY two choices:

1. We are in charge
2. God is in charge.

Guess which one has a better chance to get US to heaven?***

Merry Christmas,
Pat

How is you get this as a response to what I wrote? You write as if we disagree. Did I miss something?

 

[PJM]

=Cavaradossi;8736218]There were no Orthodox Christians at that time? That’s news to the Churches of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

They were stil aof the grou of RC hurches at ths ime, and remained such until the Schim.

God Bess,
Pat

 

[Newsy]

There were no Orthodox Christians at that time? That’s news to the Churches of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

As PJM addressed, these churches existed as catholic. Until 1054, these churches were in communion with Rome. If you have some proof of these churches calling themselves EO before 1054, I would love to hear it. If you have a quote from the ECF’s regarding this group of churches being in schism, please share it. I was referring to the fact that there were no churches flying flags of protestantism or Eastern Orthodox before the great schism. Therefore the Early Church was very much Catholic!

 

[BrianH]

To be accurate the Athanasian Creed is attributed to the sixth century and the fifth century had the schism between the Oriental Orthodox and the Catholic Church.

 

[Cavaradossi]

As PJM addressed, these churches existed as catholic. Until 1054, these churches were in communion with Rome. If you have some proof of these churches calling themselves EO before 1054, I would love to hear it. If you have a quote from the ECF’s regarding this group of churches being in schism, please share it. I was referring to the fact that there were no churches flying flags of protestantism or Eastern Orthodox before the great schism. Therefore the Early Church was very much Catholic!

That’s a rather meaningless argument. The proper name of the ‘Easern Orthodox Church’ is the ‘One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ or sometimes simply the ‘Orthodox Church’ or the ‘Catholic Church’ (when such a usage would not cause confusion between your church and mine, both of which claim to be catholic) all three of which predate the schism. The title Eastern Orthodox is only used as a disambiguation to distinguish the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (or at least the church which I believe is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) from other churches which also claim that they are the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (namely the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church which is commonly known as the Roman Catholic Church).

Just because your church is commony known as the ‘Roman Catholic Church’ (a title which some vehemently reject, precisely for the reason that it makes the Catholic Church appear not to be catholic) instead of the ‘One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church’ or the ‘Catholic Church’ does not mean that it therefore cannot claim to predate the schism; the same is true for my Church. Let’s not argue over semantics here. To claim that one church started suddenly after 1054 would be complete historical fiction and would not do justice to the circumstances behind the East-West schism.

Edit: After seeing CopticChristian’s post below mine, I figured I should add that it would be just as fictitious to say that the Oriental Orthodox Church ‘started’ after the council of Chalcedon. Surely their traditions, beliefs and christology predate Chalcedon, just as our (our meaning Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic) shared christology predates Chalcedon. Similarly, we can’t say that either the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church ‘started’ after the East-West schism. Both have their roots firmly planted before that point in history.

 

[CopticChristian]

As PJM addressed, these churches existed as catholic. Until 1054, these churches were in communion with Rome. If you have some proof of these churches calling themselves EO before 1054, I would love to hear it. If you have a quote from the ECF’s regarding this group of churches being in schism, please share it. I was referring to the fact that there were no churches flying flags of protestantism or Eastern Orthodox before the great schism. Therefore the Early Church was very much Catholic!

OHCAC East and West. Our Pope calls EO a sister Church…must have the same name, same family, sibling…the OHCAC is Roman East/West…EO and I would add Oriental…

The deposit of Faith is the same with or without a name, with or without a flag.

 

[Newsy]

OHCAC East and West. Our Pope calls EO a sister Church…must have the same name, same family, sibling…the OHCAC is Roman East/West…EO and I would add Oriental…

The deposit of Faith is the same with or without a name, with or without a flag.

I believe that the EO is part of the OHCA Church. They have valid orders and sacraments. I was simply addressing LutheranSemGuy, who stated, “A Christian is anyone who can affirm the three ecumenical creeds (Apostle’s, Nicene, Athanasian)”. I was simply addressing the fact that these Creeds were developed before there was any schism, when the Church was wholly in communion with Rome, except a few heretics. To say that a someone is a christian b/c they attest to 3 early creeds, seems to oversimplify the situation. I was merely pointing out where those creeds originated.

As for the Athanasian Creed, I saw it dated to the 5th or 6th century, but it’s language is rooted deeply in Augustine’s ‘On The Trinity’ , ca 415. I was unaware that we had an exact date for this creed.

I was not insinuating that Antioch or Jerusalem or any Eastern Orthodox Churches just popped up after the schism. I was merely pointing out that without the Early Catholic Church, we wouldn’t have the creeds that LutheranSemGuy was referring to. It seems difficult to reject the Catholic Church, yet use her early teachings. This just comes from my experience as a protestant, my church rejected the CC, but used the early creeds.

I wouldn’t say that all are “Roman East/West”, but with cooperation and prayer may we be one!

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s a beautiful thing that you believe strongly in the Catholic faith. From my experience, the more you learn the more you grow to love it.

Please do be careful not to paint our Protestant brothers with too big of strokes, though. While there are indeed Protestant denominations that may not follow their doctrine, there are also many Catholics who don’t score too well either in this column. There are certainly examples of Protestant communities that follow their doctrine quite thoroughly to.

God bless you in your walk with the Lord.

It is true.

 

[Tridentinum]

There were no Orthodox Christians at that time? That’s news to the Churches of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria.

Back then they were Catholics.