Is it vaintiy to walk out of a mass?

[promethius]

he’s mocking those who love the church and want sacred music during mass

its not new. hes done things like this before

No, I think he’s mocking the arrogance of those who think Katholikos means “agrees with my personal taste and nothing outside of that”.

 

[JoyIsLikeRain]

In africa, the music used in latin masses would be regarded as vulgar and disrespectful to God. To them, it would appear we were having a bloody funeral rather than a celebration of anything that had life in it.

Culture regarding music is VERY different. Your cultural hubris does not limit what people are allowed to offer to God based on their cultural understanding of what gives honor to God. There’s nothing “wrong” with Tagalog culture, just as there is nothing “wrong” with latin culture.

sigh I’m surprised so many people say they believe in the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church when it’s apparent that they believe in the one, holy, agrees with all their personal preferences, and apostolic church…

sigh

Nowhere did I say explicit that “Tagalog culture is wrong.” I mentioned in my first post I have been to bi-lingual Tagalog and English masses in the past, and they were very pleasant, reverent and orthodox.

What I observed yesterday was not reverent and unorthodox of any Catholic mass, geographical and cultural locations notwithstanding, and I doubt is an absolute definition of Tagalog culture.

Don’t hold your breath on this. Sure the translations will change, but the music probably won’t change as much as you think it would.

In my parish, it’s the same-old same-old all over again. Our old GIA hymnal (Gather) is being replaced by the new GIA hymnal (Gather in the new 4th? edition). From what I’ve seen, the new one takes out traditional music and replaces it with Praise And Worship Contemporary Christian music. I guess I should count my blessings – at least we aren’t an OCP parish.

I had a chance to hear some of the new Mass settings our parish is deciding upon. One is just using our previous setting, but with the updated translations. Another one has a Calypso beat (I love Calypso, but this was ridiculous as a Mass setting for a suburban parish). I heard a couple that sounded good, and I pray that our choirs will use a setting that is reverent and prayerful.

I heard some new GIA stuff to at a talk I went to recently, introducing the new changes and songs.

The text I knew about because I’m familiar with both the full-Latin and 1970 missals. The music definitely was more on the Praise and Worship side, but I’ve realized that most parishes here in the USA won’t will have a conversion to “better” music.

The music at the 6pm mass I left was bad. Not as offensive as, let’s say, a Polka Mass, but pop-music style, soulful belting by the priest backed by a synth and electric bass was less than pleasant. They tried, but could be one of the reasons why this parish had roughly 25 people in the pews, and the other was at standing capacity.

 

[zab]

he’s mocking those who love the church and want sacred music during mass

its not new. hes done things like this before

He’s a priest, FatHead, and deserving of our respect. He just can’t spell. (New England Priest)

Oh, please don’t report me anyone. I was just kidding (and so was he, by the way, and he is a priest)

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

He’s a priest, FatHead, and deserving of our respect. He just can’t spell. (New England Priest)

LOL, didn’t notice my chosen screen name didn’t fit when I signed up. After a few posts I realized it, but oh well, it’s not the worst oversight I’ll ever make.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

he’s mocking those who love the church and want sacred music during mass

Not at all. It was merely a joke.

 

[Angel_Bradford]

No, I think he’s mocking the arrogance of those who think Katholikos means “agrees with my personal taste and nothing outside of that”.

Thatt’s my thoughts exactly…
:clapping:

 

[Sarabande]

sigh

Nowhere did I say explicit that “Tagalog culture is wrong.” I mentioned in my first post I have been to bi-lingual Tagalog and English masses in the past, and they were very pleasant, reverent and orthodox.

What I observed yesterday was not reverent and unorthodox of any Catholic mass, geographical and cultural locations notwithstanding, and I doubt is an absolute definition of Tagalog culture.

Are we talking about the national dialect Tagalog from the Philippines? I’m part Filipina and I’ve never heard of the “Tagalog culture”. That said, I was raised in the States. You are right, though, I also don’t think what you experienced is part of the Filipino culture, as I’ve attended a few Filipino masses myself, including masses held in Filipino homes during house blessings and have never attended one like you described. My mother grew up in the Philippines and the masses she attended in her province were almost always with organ and their hymnody, although there is also a culture with the use of guitar, which seemed to come later on, at least from what my mother tells me. I’m sure things have changed in the Philippines since she has been there, though.

In regards to the vanity issue, I don’t think it was. It’s not like you tried your best. You also were able to attend mass somewhere else. Until a few years ago, I actually would become physically ill whenever I’d attend mass that was more like a rock band concert. As soon as I’d hear the music, I literally would feel like I had to vomit. It was horrible. So, I couldn’t attend mass like that. Now, if I had to, I’m able to get through it without having the urge to vomit, but I will always try to avoid a mass like that when possible just in case I have another episode. Part of it is probably psychological, but I know for me, when I want to pray, I don’t want super-loud, amplified instruments and belting voices always through a microphone. I sometimes feel like my body and my mind is being attacked by noise. I don’t like attending rock concerts because of it either, even though I do enjoy rock music.

 

[joshrp]

Yesterday, I missed morning mass, but two churches in my area have evening masses, one at 6 and the other at 7pm. Both were listed on the parishes’ websites as being in English.

I showed up at the 6pm mass parish; it’s about a five-mile drive from my home. It was announced that the mass would “mainly be in Tagalog.” I was initially fine with that; I had been to half-Tagalog, half-English masses before and they’re usually reverent.

This 6pm wasn’t. Mass began with a LOUD electric guitar choir. This was followed by the priest singing the Gloria like Whitney Houston in his native language. I really didn’t think it was reverent and appropriate at all to see someone belting out the Gloria like a pop singer, on top of a Mass listed as being said in one language, yet being done in another. I left, although I felt bad because there was roughly only 25 people in attendance.

I went to 7 pm at the other parish. Mass was in English, and the church was packed into the lobby, with people of many different cultures. Nice, traditional hymns, no weird singing, no odd liturgical abuses. It was a normal mass.

However, I was brought up to appreciate every mass, knowing there are people in parts of the world who cannot attend mass at all and truly desire to do so, or must travel very far, often in unsafe conditions. The mass is the mass.
Yet, I began to think that it’s vanity on my part I couldn’t stand the pop-concert like staging of the mass at the 6pm parish, coupled with the fact it wasn’t in English. I felt bad,thinking I maybe should have endured it and I’m too “picky.”

Sometimes I wonder what an all-Latin mass Church would appear like in 2011…

Honestly, I would not have stayed if they started playing electric guitars. The frequency of electrical instruments bothers my ears. It is literally torture to listen to them.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Don’t worry. It’s not gonna happen. The humidity in the rain forest wreaks havoc with the tuning of the pipes and all the hymns come out Protestant.

Besides, Hail Holy Queen sounds great rendered on the tambourine and kazoo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrF1ylQQZyc&feature=related

-Tim-

I tell you. I laughed at your joke till I realized that you could have been speaking seriously !!!
Good one!

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

What?

You have to compare many, many things in life. Reviewing anything is comparison. Using “devil” is a bit on the hyperbole side. Don’t get a little ahead of yourself, you’re only a human like myself.

Exactly…I’ve once left a mass in the morning that was just too bizarre, only to go to an evening mass ripe with abuses. It’s best to offer things up, sometimes.

Yes, it is an hyperbole, of course.
I tell you, it is the devil.
People suffer so much for comparisons that I say that you do not need the devil, you just need to compare. We are in a group of 10 people. I give you 1 million dollars and you are in Heaven and then I give 10 million to each of the others and you are in hell.
So, I shout everyday: do not compare. You compare? No problem! You suffer…

 

[JoyIsLikeRain]

[edited]

Are we talking about the national dialect Tagalog from the Philippines? I’m part Filipina and I’ve never heard of the “Tagalog culture”. That said, I was raised in the States. You are right, though, I also don’t think what you experienced is part of the Filipino culture, as I’ve attended a few Filipino masses myself, including masses held in Filipino homes during house blessings and have never attended one like you described. My mother grew up in the Philippines and the masses she attended in her province were almost always with organ and their hymnody, although there is also a culture with the use of guitar, which seemed to come later on, at least from what my mother tells me. I’m sure things have changed in the Philippines since she has been there, though.

In regards to the vanity issue, I don’t think it was. It’s not like you tried your best. You also were able to attend mass somewhere else. Until a few years ago, I actually would become physically ill whenever I’d attend mass that was more like a rock band concert. As soon as I’d hear the music, I literally would feel like I had to vomit. It was horrible. So, I couldn’t attend mass like that. Now, if I had to, I’m able to get through it without having the urge to vomit, but I will always try to avoid a mass like that when possible just in case I have another episode. Part of it is probably psychological, but I know for me, when I want to pray, I don’t want super-loud, amplified instruments and belting voices always through a microphone.

That 6pm mass sounded awful…I realized that I’m having less and less patience for such shenanigans in any sort of religious event. I used to rationalize and say “well, it’s different…” Now, I tire of sitting through another person’s interpretation of what a Catholic mass should be.

 

[I_Thirst]

Sorry, I think you should really refrain from posting until your English makes better sense.

Pfaffenhoffen’s point was clear and understandable. Perhaps you should refrain from chastising someone else’s English until your reading comprehension improves?

 

[promethius]

sigh

Nowhere did I say explicit that “Tagalog culture is wrong.” I mentioned in my first post I have been to bi-lingual Tagalog and English masses in the past, and they were very pleasant, reverent and orthodox.

I understand, they were pleasant to you. Of course, what you saw in a joint mass may have been a compromise using western styles of worship, while a Tagalog only mass might be expected to be different. As the good Fr has pointed out, the Philipinos didn’t always have pipe organs and pianos.

What I observed yesterday was not reverent and unorthodox of any Catholic mass, geographical and cultural locations notwithstanding, and I doubt is an absolute definition of Tagalog culture.

And there is the problem… not reverent TO YOU. Travel to Africa and go to mass some time. Tell them they should get rid of their drums and strings and go back to “reverent” music. Really, see what they tell you.

They would ask you why you insult God by not using their joyous music. And they would be no less wrong than your insistence on something more Western.

Again, your personal preference does not dictate what is pleasing to God. We all have different things to offer and different ways of showing respect.

 

[promethius]

Are we talking about the national dialect Tagalog from the Philippines? I’m part Filipina and I’ve never heard of the “Tagalog culture”.

The Tagalogs are an ethnic group, as well as having a form of dialogue. I do believe the kundiman style of music originated with the Tagalogs, if I’m not mistaken.

On a side note, have you ever heard Chris Rock’s explanation about why he failed black history?

You are right, though, I also don’t think what you experienced is part of the Filipino culture, as I’ve attended a few Filipino masses myself, including masses held in Filipino homes during house blessings and have never attended one like you described. My mother grew up in the Philippines and the masses she attended in her province were almost always with organ and their hymnody

That is because of Spanish colonizers brought western musical styles and instruments with them. I assure you, Philipino music did not originate with the pipe organ.

although there is also a culture with the use of guitar, which seemed to come later on, at least from what my mother tells me.

Judging by traditional philipino instruments (which did not include the pipe organ or the piano), this would probably be more accurately described as a return to more traditional philipino music roots. There are African churches which have pipe organs too, but that does not change the fact that Africans offer respect traditionally through different forms of music than western styles.

In regards to the vanity issue, I don’t think it was. It’s not like you tried your best. You also were able to attend mass somewhere else. Until a few years ago, I actually would become physically ill whenever I’d attend mass that was more like a rock band concert. As soon as I’d hear the music, I literally would feel like I had to vomit. It was horrible. So, I couldn’t attend mass like that. Now, if I had to, I’m able to get through it without having the urge to vomit, but I will always try to avoid a mass like that when possible just in case I have another episode. Part of it is probably psychological, but I know for me, when I want to pray, I don’t want super-loud, amplified instruments and belting voices always through a microphone. I sometimes feel like my body and my mind is being attacked by noise. I don’t like attending rock concerts because of it either, even though I do enjoy rock music.

This whole last paragraph is scary to me. I really think you should check out Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth” because it will open your eyes about how your “sick to your stomach” position is so grossly inappropriate an attitude to take towards the mass…

 

[dconklin]

Walking out really shows God what you think!

Please don’t stand next to me in a thunderstorm.

 

[promethius]

Walking out really shows God what you think!

I hope he at least respectfully and quietly excused himself so that others might have thought he just went to the restroom or had to leave due to personal reasons.

We had a poster one time come here bragging about storming out of a mass to show the priest and the people how their abuses had upset him. The only response I could muster was “so you took a mass that you though wasn’t as reverent as it should be, and you positively scandalized it through your own actions to draw attention to yourself.”

 

[JackQ]

I wonder: is this guy joking or speaking seriously? I read 3 times and could not figure out!

Joke. It’s American irony.

 

[JoyIsLikeRain]

I hope he at least respectfully and quietly excused himself so that others might have thought he just went to the restroom or had to leave due to personal reasons.

We had a poster one time come here bragging about storming out of a mass to show the priest and the people how their abuses had upset him. The only response I could muster was “so you took a mass that you though wasn’t as reverent as it should be, and you positively scandalized it through your own actions to draw attention to yourself.”

Yes, “he”, (I) excused himself quietly.

 

[Sarabande]

The Tagalogs are an ethnic group, as well as having a form of dialogue. I do believe the kundiman style of music originated with the Tagalogs, if I’m not mistaken.

That is interesting as I was not aware of that in particular (kundiman style of music). I did know that there are hundreds of dialects there, because of the different groups and islands, but never associated it with being “ethnic” or a “culture” per say. That’s where I was confused with the terminology.

is because of Spanish colonizers brought western musical styles and instruments with them. I assure you, Philipino music did not originate with the pipe organ…

Yes, I am very aware of that. Thank you. This is one part of history I do know about, especially the heavy influence of the Spaniards and the huge variety of backgrounds which also influenced the native people there.

Also, just as a side note, it is spelled “Filipino” when you are describing us or anything “Filipino”. Not Philipino. I used to make that mistake all the time when I was a kid until I was corrected by my Filipino family members as well as other Filipinos.

Judging by traditional philipino instruments (which did not include the pipe organ or the piano), this would probably be more accurately described as a return to more traditional philipino music roots. There are African churches which have pipe organs too, but that does not change the fact that Africans offer respect traditionally through different forms of music than western styles.

Yes, quite aware of that as well. Actually, I don’t find ethnic masses offensive at all, even with their different kinds of music, so I don’t know what you are trying to get at. For the record, I have never attended a Filipino mass or other ethnic mass in which I ever felt that way, so it has nothing to do with ethnic masses at all.

whole last paragraph is scary to me. I really think you should check out Scott Hahn’s “The Lamb’s Supper: Mass as Heaven on Earth” because it will open your eyes about how your “sick to your stomach” position is so grossly inappropriate an attitude to take towards the mass…

Actually, you should understand this doesn’t just happen at mass. It can happen anywhere for me. It is a literal visceral reaction which I didn’t and couldn’t understand for a few years when it was happening to me. I have had to actually pray very hard and focus on something else so that it wouldn’t occur. When I finally was aware of what was happening, I was able to be prepared prior to going anywhere where I knew I have to be at and have no way of leaving - concert with loud music, a young adult or children’s place that has really loud music, an office party with really loud music, a musical with lots of loud belting, a wedding reception with music in which you can’t hear yourself think or the person next to you talk, or a mass with really loud music. BTW - the music and voices at mass as I have found, if it is over-amplified and too loud, can be any kind of style of music. It has made me anxious and sick and I have understood it to be part psychological and part physical based on what I know how certain noise levels, rhythms, etc. can affect one’s body and sometimes mind - for good or ill actually. It is something I have been able to get through now, but I was also being sympathetic to the OP for what she might have been experiencing, having been there myself in the past.

I will think the best of you and first assume that you meant well by this last paragraph, but I personally don’t find it appropriate that you would venture to say something like that when you don’t even know me personally and the inner workings of me, especially since you really have no idea how I approach the sacrifice of the Mass and my level of spirituality in general. It would be very unfair and wrong of me to make a negative assumption of you and offer unsolicited reading “advice” based on the few posts I’ve read of yours, so I ask that you at least kindly refrain your comments regarding your idea of me to yourself until you actually do know me personally or when I do ask for advice, to which I would accept openly and freely. Thank you kindly.