Is it Wheat vs. Chaff or Are We All Willed to Salvation?

[Matt_Tiza]

Consider Matthew 3:8-12.

8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance. 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10 For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you in water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire. 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor and gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.

Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4

I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now what do you think?

Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation?

Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our “choices” might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation?”

Possibility 1: We are destined to be either wheat or chaff. If this is true we have no way of knowing if we will be the wheat or the chaff. One could live holy until the day of death and turn away from God at the last minute. Or one could live a sinful life and turn towards God at the hour. And, free will in this case is undermined since what we choose has already been predetermined.

Possibility 2: We are all willed to salvation. God wills us to be saved. Those who are saved accept his will. Those who aren’t resist his will. Thus, God would have to grant us free will, because if his will overpowered ours then we could not resist. In that case everyone would be saved. But, we would all be like robots. Thus, free will is necessary.

What does the bible say?

1 Tim 2:4 - “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

The passage plainly says that God’s will is for everyone to be saved. Thus, Possibility 1 is not possible. Possibility 1 says that God only wills some to be saved. Possibility 2 with free will is the only logical choice. God wills everyone to be saved but some resist God’s will to their own peril.

 

[Margie9]

Traditionally, Universal Salvation is not Church Doctrine. Salvation is through the Church alone. However, an acceptance of this concept has grown since Vatican II. Many theologians go one way or the other. It is easy to go find two priests and they will actually have two different views on Universal Salvation. Therefore, I’m not sure myself which to belief, but the proper source for the answer would not be the Bible but a Church document or the Catechism.

 

[Margie9]

Spent some time and made some phone calls to clarify this matter, which if you research on the internet is not reliable due to it being such a controversial topic and therefore many different explanations. I will just try to summarize what I’ve found (also talked to priest) and then anyone really interested can look it up (below).

The doctrine of “universal salvation” is heresy. It has never been accepted by the Church. Vatican II did not change the age-old doctrine of the church in this regard, nor did Pope John Paul II, contrary to some misstatements by certain theologians.

We must die in charity in God’s grace and friendship in order to live with Him in eternity. (Catechism)

There are many statements sprinkled throughout the Catechism that clarify this, and go into detail. To get a good understanding I read 153 to 1065. Much of this is general about faith and death and such that is the underpinning of the reasoning for more specific statements that deal directly with individual salvation and its requirements.

For example: “The Necessity of Faith”

Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One Who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. Since without faith it is impossible to please God and to attain to the fellowship of his sons; therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life but he who endures to the end.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Consider Matthew 3:8-12.

Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4

Now what do you think?

Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation?

Pick a stem of wheat from a field; on the fruiting part of the body you will find short tufts of chaff. These pieces of chaff are beaten out of the wheat before it is milled into flour. The truth is, wheat can not grow without chaff – it is part of the wheat plant. None of us is without some chaff – but the danger is that some of us have no fruit;
http://www.nature-wallpapers.net/bulkupload/wallpapers/All Nature/golden-wheat-ear.jpg

As it says in 1Cori:

1Cori 3:11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.
1Cori 3:12 Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
1Cori 3:13 Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
1Cori 3:14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cori 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Each of us will suffer loss as chaff is destroyed on the last day. It is “the day of the Lord” and not “every day” which St. Paul speaks of here. And it is from this that the doctrine of “purgatory” (burning away of chaff) comes.

Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our “choices” might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL.

But the question is, do they have fruit – not “do they make mistakes”; for St. John also says:

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death (not deadly), he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin** not **unto death.

It is these sins, “not” unto death, not “deadly” or “mortal” in their wounds which are to be burned up on the “day of the Lord”.

If a man have nothing but sins and chaff, then it is impossible that all off them are not deadly – but if one has sins and fruits, it is possible that the sins are not deadly.
It is these sins, on the last day, which shall be covered by the justice of Christ and his oil will burn them off revealing the good things that are left. It is the anointing of the sick, with oil, which likewise prepares the sins for removal of a person near death – and the soul of the sick person becomes ready to be healed.

No one knows what the ultimate predestination of a sinful person is; we, perhaps, see their predestination into his church here on earth – and someday we expect to see whether they bore fruit and were predestined to heaven or not. But that is all that can be known before their death – unless their fruit be manifest early; and the church proclaim it.

But, why, when it gives him Joy – would God the Son not offer the chance to be with him forever to every one? If he offered not the chance, they would not be guilty of rejecting him; and even he himself says of the ignorant “If I had not come, they had no sin…”. (But now I have come…).

It is only to those who sin continuously, that Jesus says “If you sin (continuously) against the Holy Spirit, there is no forgiveness … nor in the age to come.”

Peace to you; look harder to your own salvation than at others faults. Today has enough evil of its’ own.

 

[Matt_Tiza]

I like the directions that this thread has taken.
**
Could it be that we are both wheat and chaff insomuch as we have to shed our sinful natures (the chaff) to allow the salvation of our good fruits (the wheat)? Perhaps some are more wheat than chaff or vice versa and that our own good fruits or vices determine our eternal fates?**

I think that this is consistent with Catholic teaching.

God’s mercy is infinite and His judgment is absolute. As a loving Creator He would not will all to salvation if it were not possible (e.g. “in my Father’s house there are many rooms”). Our devotion to God is our submission to and acceptance of His Will, as revealed through His Word, by our own free will. Even though He views all time and space in an instant and knows the inner workings of our hearts and the results of our decisions, it is still an act of glorification to Him when we act righteously.

 

[Matt_Tiza]

Shedding our sinful natures into the fire is what purgation is about. It is necessary for salvation. I sincerely hope that our Protestant brothers and sisters will learn to accept Purgatory though, according to them, it is not directly described in Scripture.

Sometimes you just have to trust the guys who wrote The Book that they know what they’re talking about

 

[Blossoming]

God created man with free will. If we did not have free will how would God know if we had chosen to love, glorify and follow Him.

Because of that, we are all born capable of attaining salvation, but we have to choose it. Those who choose to love Christ and follow his teachings are wheat. Those who know God exists and deliberately choose to turn against Him, are chaff.

God doesn’t choose this for them and it makes Christ sorrowful, but without free will our love of God would be valueless.

People make their own choices. All day long, every day even every minute, we make choices on worshipping God through loving acts or not in our everyday dealings. We make many choices and sometimes we choose well, sometimes we choose poorly. When we repent and confess we ask to be brought back into a state of grace. Confession and other sacraments help us build an internal structure with Christ’s aid that help us to make our choices good more and more often.

Ultimately, we ourselves determine whether we shall be wheat or chaff.

 

[PJM]

=Matt Tiza;8433144]Consider Matthew 3:8-12.

Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4

Now what do you think?

Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation?

Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our “choices” might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL.

Hi Matt,

The idea that a “Just God” could, would or permit any form of “predestrination” contradicts the very nature of God Himself and denies humanity the opportunity to apply and use the very gifts that make us “in the image og God.”

The chaff are those who FREEELY choose to be “chaff.,” either one who denies God completely ot equally evil: makes god into there very own image of god; forming god into alter-selves; rather than permitting God in humility to form and CONFROM them into imgaes by ones life choices of God- Himself.

The wheat are those humble enough to permit God “to be in charge” of there lives. Which means doing EVERYTHING the way God teaches; ignoring the thousands of man-made alternatives to a single truth; and following fully those Christ Choose to lead, teach and retain the one key to heaven. Amen!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[StevieD]

Today is the anniversary of the last of the Fatima apparitions and the miracle of the sun. During the apparitions, Our Lady was reported as saying that ‘many souls go to hell…’ because no-one prays for them and that the main reason for damnation is sexual immorality. I know that we are not required to believe private revelations but it would take a brave soul to reject this one in my view.

 

[fhansen]

Consider Matthew 3:8-12.

Now consider 1 Timothy 1:4

Now what do you think?

Are some people destined to be the wheat to be gathered into the barn while others are destined to be the chaff to be burned in unquenchable fire, or are we truly all willed to salvation?

Granted that we all have free will, yet God understands our free will much better than we ever will so our “choices” might well be considered predetermined. For example you probably KNOW exactly what some of your friends and family members will do in certain situations despite that they will do it by their own FREE WILL.

We all start out with a lot of chaff. The NC is all about change-the changes we cooperate with God to make in us so we’ll turn out to be wheat-or not. He wants these changes, this sanctification, so we’ll be saved, but we can reject His will. Then, finally, God will separate the two.

 

[TimothyH]

Consider Matthew 3:8-12.

8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of penance

It’s not really relevant to the topic but I wonder what translation that is.

It should read “Fruit worthy of repentance”, and “Baptize you in water unto repentance”, not penance.

-Tim-

 

[Betyourlife]

Some saints had a very pessimistic view and believed very few will be saved. Other more happy saints believed most will be saved. I tend to side with the positive siblings and hope most of us will be with Papa in heaven. Purgatory is the reason we all can have hope. But don’t shoot for purgatory, you just might miss! . Also, in a Medjugorge message (private revelation) Mary said that most souls go to Purgatory, 2nd greatest number to hell and the fewest go straight to heaven. An optimistic equation could be 90% go to Purgatory, 6% go to hell and 4% go straight to heaven.

 

[PJM]

***By-pass the Saints opinions and take the advice from Jesus Himself.

The Narrow gate is not simply a metaphore; it’s FACT. Unless your a member of a religious community; of ALL the people you know, and know off… How many are LIKELY to get to heaven if they were to be called home by God right now?

Then ADD to your guess the FACT that in the entire bible; never does God permit belief in more than Himself; INSIST UPON ONLY One set of faith beliefs [not one set per church],and factor in that Christ founded ONLY One Church, and gave the Key to heaven Only to Peter; because the RCC is Christ gift to humanity; and the GATE [singular] to heaven… READ Matthew chapter 7 carefully.*

Jesus warns that not ALL who shout “Lord, Lord” will in fact get to heaven; BUT ONLY those who do the will of My Father[Me]. … This too is not a myth, but FACT.

The potential for human salvaton is GREAT. BUT not many will pay even the meger price Christ demands fo admission.

Why? PRIDE, Sloth, Lust, Greed, Envey, Anger, and other man-made [with Satans help]…gods.

God Bless,
Pat**

 

[Matt_Tiza]

It’s not really relevant to the topic but I wonder what translation that is.

It should read “Fruit worthy of repentance”, and “Baptize you in water unto repentance”, not penance.

-Tim-

This is from the Bible at www.newadvent.org .

Is there a better Catholic Bible online from which we can quote Holy Scripture more accurately?

 

[PJM]

FROM www.biblestudytools.com

New Revised Standard (NRS)
3 He stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, “I do choose. Be made clean!” Immediately his leprosy was cleansed 4 Then Jesus said to him, “See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them.” . 5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, appealing to him 6 and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, in terrible distress.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and cure him.” 8 The centurion answered, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only speak the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to one, "Go,’ and he goes, and to another, "Come,’ and he comes, and to my slave, “Do this,’ and the slave does it.” 10 When Jesus heard him, he was amazed and said to those who followed him, “Truly I tell you, in no one in Israel have I found such faith. . 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and will eat with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the heirs of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Douay-Rheims (RHE) .
.3 And Jesus stretching forth his hand, touched him, saying: I will, be thou made clean. And forthwith his leprosy was cleansed 4 And Jesus saith to him: See thou tell no man: but go, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them 5 And when he had entered into Capharnaum, there came to him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, and is grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith to him: I will come and heal him. 8 And the centurion, making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him. Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel11 And I say to you that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven: 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[antunesaa]

Traditionally, Universal Salvation is not Church Doctrine. Salvation is through the Church alone. However, an acceptance of this concept has grown since Vatican II. Many theologians go one way or the other. It is easy to go find two priests and they will actually have two different views on Universal Salvation. Therefore, I’m not sure myself which to belief, but the proper source for the answer would not be the Bible but a Church document or the Catechism.

I think the important point here is not so much knowing whether many or few of us will go to hell, but rather knowing that there is the real possibility that we go to hell. The Church emphasizes this point and I think we should take it seriously. Then the question of whether we will be saved – well, that is for God to decide and we hope He decides to save us. Will He do it?

 

[Matt_Tiza]

I think the important point here is not so much knowing whether many or few of us will go to hell, but rather knowing that there is the real possibility that we go to hell. The Church emphasizes this point and I think we should take it seriously. Then the question of whether we will be saved – well, that is for God to decide and we hope He decides to save us. Will He do it?

Hopefully, we don’t go to Hell. We have to realize that we all have human weaknesses as a part of our fallen nature. It is important to be sorry for our sins and to repent knowing that we have these inclinations to sin. Thankfully for us, Christ knows that we will fall many times and get back up. It is our sincerity in trusting in Him and our efforts throughout our lives to improve and to cast off our sinful nature that make the difference. Nobody is perfect as we can even sin in the silence of our own minds. A steadfast faith in Christ and works of faith are our only hope of overcoming the constant temptation of evil.

Only God knows what is truly in our hearts and how well we fought the battle against sin. The wisdom of His judgment upon us is something that even we ourselves cannot possibly comprehend. I pray everyday to keep the Holy Spirit alive in my heart and in the hearts of others so that we all may overcome the burden of sin.

 

[PJM]

=Matt Tiza;8701754]Hopefully, we don’t go to Hell. We have to realize that we all have human weaknesses as a part of our fallen nature. It is important to be sorry for our sins and to repent knowing that we have these inclinations to sin. Thankfully for us, Christ knows that we will fall many times and get back up. It is our sincerity in trusting in Him and our efforts throughout our lives to improve and to cast off our sinful nature that make the difference. Nobody is perfect as we can even sin in the silence of our own minds. A steadfast faith in Christ and works of faith are our only hope of overcoming the constant temptation of evil.

Only God knows what is truly in our hearts and how well we fought the battle against sin. The wisdom of His judgment upon us is something that even we ourselves cannot possibly comprehend. I pray everyday to keep the Holy Spirit alive in my heart and in the hearts of others so that we all may overcome the burden of sin.

Hi Matt,

What your saying is NOT what Jesus Himself Commands.

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. ** There is sin which is mortal**; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, ** but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. ** Jesus said to them ** again, “Peace be with you. ** As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” ** And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

And this is a EXTENSION, completion and perfection of OT practices:

**Lev.4: 20,26, 31 **“Thus shall he do with the bull; as he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this; and the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven. …] And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings; so the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven. …And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a pleasing odor to the LORD; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.

Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 “and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

Lev.16: 8-9, 21 “and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for Aza’zel. … And Aaron shall present the goat on which the lot fell for the LORD, and offer it as a sin offering; …and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins; and he shall put them upon the head of the goat, and send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness.”

ANYONE AND EVERYONE SERIOUS ABOUT GETTING TO HEAVEN BEST FORGET WHAT “THE PASTOR SAID” AND DO WHAT JESUS SAY’S:thumbsup:

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Matt_Tiza]

Pat, I appreciate the scripture quotes, but I’m really at a loss for the distinction between those quotes and the argument that I was making regarding sin and salvation.

I understand about mortal and venial sins as well as forgiveness in Christ. To err is to be human, and we can never achieve’s Christ’s perfection however serious we may be to perfect ourselves in His image.

I’m no biblical scholar as I’ve only read through the Bible once and going on twice now. With that said I would really appreciate some generous paraphrasing and explanations whenever biblical passages are used to support an argument. The words of Christ are the most powerful that I’ve ever read, but when used as talking points the intended messages of those quoting them are not always obvious to everyone.