Is it wise to point to other religions about the Real Presence

  • Thread starter Thread starter Qwikness
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Q

Qwikness

Guest
A co-worker was interested in seeing different churches, I guess for educational purposes. but he could be searching, I don’t know. He comes from a Presbyterian background. He has been really getting into religion lately and told me how recently finished reading the entire Bible. He may just be gleaning some spiritualism from others beliefs.

He was asking me about Catholicism. He doesn’t agree with the usual stuff and countered with some scripture. I answered him pretty well. I gave him a Catholic bible and a Catechism and took him to Mass this past weekend. He seemed to like it. I don’t think he’s going to convert but he could, twenty years from now … any way…

Its hard for him to accept a few things particularly the Real Presence. Does anyone think that it is wise to point to other religions that do believe this and say "go check out the Lutherans, Episcopals and Orthodox. " I don’t want to justify our beliefs by basing them on theirs but I do want to say, “hey, look, we didn’t just make this up. Others believe it too.” I did give him the link to the Early Church Fathers about the Real Presence on Catholic Answers.

It has been fruitful so far. He has defended Catholicism when people say some really weird stuff about us which I appreciate.

I am not sell Catholicism on this guy, if he just wants to talk in order to understand, that’ll be fine.

thanks
 
Most Protestant denominations do not believe in the Real Presence the same way we do. Lutherans believe in transubstantiation where what is on the altar is both bread and the Body of Christ. Other denominations believe it is just spiritual.

I would gently point out as well that only Catholics and Orthodox actually have the Real Presence because we have valid holy orders. That, if anything, is what will be difficult to accept.
 
fermat said:
Most Protestant denominations do not believe in the Real Presence the same way we do. Lutherans believe in transubstantiation where what is on the altar is both bread and the Body of Christ. Other denominations believe it is just spiritual.
Click to expand...
No, you are confused. Perhaps it was a typo?

Lutherans believe in CONsubstantiation i.e. the substance of the bread is not changed by the words of consecration , but the Body of Christ co-exists with the substance of the bread.

We Catholics believe in TRANSubstantiation i.e. the substance of the bread does not exist any longer, but has been changed by the words of consecration into the Body of Christ.

In both cases, the 'accidents ’ - all that is perceived with the senses, appearance, taste etc. remains.
 
Yes, I understand Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation. I didn’t want to get too detailed with it. I was thinking by saying “Even Luther believed God is present in the Eucharist.” Which is more than what he believes now. I have mentioned the Orthodox but they may be to similar to Catholicism for him to look on objectively.
 
Qwikness said:
Does anyone think that it is wise to point to other religions that do believe this and say "go check out the Lutherans, Episcopals and Orthodox. " I don’t want to justify our beliefs by basing them on theirs but I do want to say, “hey, look, we didn’t just make this up. Others believe it too.”
Click to expand...
In truth, you couldn’t justify our beliefs by basing them on other Christians’ beliefs in the Real Presence because theirs is based on ours. Ours came first, so what you should say, if you bring it up, is that there are still other non-Catholic Christians who continue to believe, some more clearly and completely than others, what the Catholic Church has always taught. You’ve already pointed him to the ECFs, so you can say that it’s clearly been taught from the beginning, continues to be taught now, and some other Christians, although they’ve rejected other parts of the Faith of the Early Church - of the Catholic Church - continue to accept the Church’s constant teaching on the Real Presence. There’s a historical continuity that cannot be found for those who deny it. You will not find anyone from the first few centuries denying the Real Presence unless that denial is based upon the denial of Jesus’ humanity, or His divinity, or both.

So, if you do bring it up, as long as you cover it clearly and cover it well, you shouldn’t have to worry about him thinking that you’re saying that our belief in the Real Presence is based on that of others… because it’s theirs that are based on the Catholic Faith. 👍
 
In conversations with Jehovah’s Witnesses, I try to point out that I could never abandon the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist, for a church that has only Bible lessons. I mention that we have Bible lessons too, but my love for Jesus leads me to desire Him personally in the Blessed Sacrament. To belong to a Protestant denomination, I say, would be abandoning the feast of the Lamb, and settling for the scraps that fall from the table.

This is kind of an emotional appeal, but sometimes, when the potential convert sees our great love for Holy Communion, that can be more convincing than history or arguing passages from Scripture. Protestants have nothing to compare to the Real Presence.

Of course, some knowledge of scripture and history can be invaluable in evangelizing. It sounds like you’re doing a good job of it. And, don’t despair if you run into the council’s wise description of most protestants: “Invincible Ignorance.” That happens to me a lot. God bless… - Rob
 
paperwight66 said:
fermat;8251509:
Most Protestant denominations do not believe in the Real Presence the same way we do. Lutherans believe in transubstantiation
Click to expand...
where what is on the altar is both bread and the Body of Christ. Other denominations believe it is just spiritual.
/QUOTE]

No, you are confused. Perhaps it was a typo?

Lutherans believe in CONsubstantiation i.e. the substance of the bread is not changed by the words of consecration , but the Body of Christ co-exists with the substance of the bread.

We Catholics believe in TRANSubstantiation i.e. the substance of the bread does not exist any longer, but has been changed by the words of consecration into the Body of Christ.

In both cases, the 'accidents ’ - all that is perceived with the senses, appearance, taste etc. remains.

Yes, my bad. That’s what I get for doing this in the early…
Click to expand...
 
=Qwikness;8251341]A co-worker was interested in seeing different churches, I guess for educational purposes. but he could be searching, I don’t know. He comes from a Presbyterian background. He has been really getting into religion lately and told me how recently finished reading the entire Bible. He may just be gleaning some spiritualism from others beliefs.
Click to expand...
He was asking me about Catholicism. He doesn’t agree with the usual stuff and countered with some scripture. I answered him pretty well. I gave him a Catholic bible and a Catechism and took him to Mass this past weekend. He seemed to like it. I don’t think he’s going to convert but he could, twenty years from now … any way…
Click to expand...
Its hard for him to accept a few things particularly the Real Presence. Does anyone think that it is wise to point to other religions that do believe this and say "go check out the Lutherans, Episcopals and Orthodox. " I don’t want to justify our beliefs by basing them on theirs but I do want to say, “hey, look, we didn’t just make this up. Others believe it too.” I did give him the link to the Early Church Fathers about the Real Presence on Catholic Answers.
Click to expand...
It has been fruitful so far. He has defended Catholicism when people say some really weird stuff about us which I appreciate.
Click to expand...
I am not sell Catholicism on this guy, if he just wants to talk in order to understand, that’ll be fine.
Click to expand...
thanks
Click to expand...
NO! And here’s why…

ONLY in the CC [and the brances of the same CC] are the Seven Sacraments Licit and VALID.

What others claim, what others believe is between them and God to work out. Faith after all is a Direct and wholly controled gift from God.

The Real Presense is the “sum and summit” of our Faith because it is REALLY Jesus Himself… THAT dear friend is WHY everyone OUGHT to be Catholic. Then add to this that ONLY in the CC does one find [have] “Known forgiveness of sin” …[1Jn.1:8-10, 1 Jn. 5:16-17, and John 20:19-23], …And IMO it is among the clearest teachings in the entire bible.

So no, rather theach him what we believe and Why we belive it. If you’d like help and guidence doing this send me a private message.

One need not [indeed ought not] push. But when asked, provide the FULLNESS of the truth on that issue which can ONLY be found with the Key’s of Peter:)

Thank you for your ministery!

God Bless you,
Pat
 
Qwikness said:
A co-worker was interested in seeing different churches, I guess for educational purposes. but he could be searching, I don’t know. He comes from a Presbyterian background. He has been really getting into religion lately and told me how recently finished reading the entire Bible. He may just be gleaning some spiritualism from others beliefs.

He was asking me about Catholicism. He doesn’t agree with the usual stuff and countered with some scripture. I answered him pretty well. I gave him a Catholic bible and a Catechism and took him to Mass this past weekend. He seemed to like it. I don’t think he’s going to convert but he could, twenty years from now … any way…

Its hard for him to accept a few things particularly the Real Presence. Does anyone think that it is wise to point to other religions that do believe this and say "go check out the Lutherans, Episcopals and Orthodox. " I don’t want to justify our beliefs by basing them on theirs but I do want to say, “hey, look, we didn’t just make this up. Others believe it too.” I did give him the link to the Early Church Fathers about the Real Presence on Catholic Answers.

It has been fruitful so far. He has defended Catholicism when people say some really weird stuff about us which I appreciate.

I am not sell Catholicism on this guy, if he just wants to talk in order to understand, that’ll be fine.

thanks
Click to expand...
Remember that the doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist did not originate with the Lutherans, Episcopals or anybody else. It originated with Jesus. And Jesus is the founder of this Catholic Church you and I belong to.

Your friend will only understand that you have a devotion and a reverence for the Eucharist and not necessarily understand it from the perspective of faith and scripture.

Example: I pray the Rosary everyday and, sometimes I begin the Rosary on my way to work but am not able to finish it until lunch time when I go into the hospital chapel and finish it there. Someone once asked me what that was (Rosary) and how it came to be. I did not flinch or skip a beat - “The Rosary in its curent format was revealed to St. Dominic in an apparition of the Blessed Mother, around the year 1247. It is sometimes called the bible of the poor.”

This person must’ve either thought that I was crazy or a different kind of catholic. The kind that he wasn’t used to knowing. He smiled and thanked me. And that was it.

Your conviction - along with your devotion and reverence, will be all that this person needs to know and/or see.

He may ask if you really believe that!! Your simple fiat - yes…will be all that is required of you.
 
fermat said:
I would gently point out as well that only Catholics and Orthodox actually have the Real Presence because we have valid holy orders. That, if anything, is what will be difficult to accept.
Click to expand...
I think this could be risky. I’m sure that’s why you said “gently.” It’s like trying to reel in a fish before it gets enough time to swallow the bait. Like another poster mentioned, if he at least had respect for Lutherans (after all they’re not Catholics 😛 ) then a) you would be getting him closer than he was, and b) you are arguing on “his turf,” like when the Good Shepherd has to leave his flock, he goes to where the sheep are, and gently brings them back from there. If he distrusts Lutherans as much as Catholics, like another said, at least he knows we are not the only ones.

Alan
 
Well in talking with my friend, he still has a problem with the Real Presence but at least he is aware of the Real Presence now. Before he had never heard of it and found it shocking. I did mention how we believed this from the beginning and pointed out John 6 and the Last Supper and the ECF. Mentioning what the Lutherans and Episcopalians believe did nothing. He doesn’t believe in it all so he’s not going to believe them either. I’ll keep working on it. I was thinking of loaning him “Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic” and/or “Home Sweet Rome” I also have a Scott Hahn CD talking about the real presence, but don’t want to overdo it. He is receptive though. His Brother on the other hand is warning him against Catholicism.
There is other issues we are talking about as well.

Apologetics has really helped me explain this stuff. I want to thank Karl Keating for helping me defend the Faith.
 
Qwikness said:
Does anyone think that it is wise to point to other religions that do believe this and say "go check out the Lutherans, Episcopals and Orthodox.
Click to expand...
It seems that this guy is really responsive and you are doing seriosuly well. However, I would not mix the Orthodox with the protestants. I’d leave out the protestants altogether because they do not believe in the Real Presence. Some believe in variations of the doctrine, while most deny it completely.
You have already discussed the Church Fathers, where you can find them explicitely mentioning this belief. Perhaps talk about the tradition (here use the Orthodox church as another example) and how this belief is rooted in the Bible and was never questioned until the reformation.

This is one of the dogmas that people really struggle with often. However, I’ve once spoken to a convert, a former atheist, and asked her if it was difficult to accept it. She said it wasn’t because getting over the big obstacle - believing in God - was the challenge, while all these other things were easy to accept since they all depend on the omnipotence of God anyway. Maybe this is a point that you could make to this guy as well.
 
Well, I loaned him Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic. We’ll see what his reaction will be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top