Is it wrong to enjoy creation? Almost

[PumpkinCookie]

Indeed, the OP is correct.

At bottom, Christianity is the desire for death, extinction, and destruction. It’s no wonder Christians of earlier times rushed into martyrdom at any opportunity!

Those who witnessed Christian martyrdom-suicides were bewildered and horrified by the Christian desire for death. Perpetua and her pregnant slave Felicity were two Christian women driven by this desire. Romans were too civilised to kill pregnant women, so Felicity was obliged to live. She was delighted when she gave birth prematurely, since the birth meant that she could now win her crown of martyrdom. The two women succeeded in securing their deaths in Carthage in AD 203, Felicity’s breasts still wet with milk for her new-born infant. Christians were impressed. Others were appalled. A few years earlier a group of Christians had approached a proconsul in Asia, asking him to have them killed. “Unhappy men!” he said “if you are thus weary of your lives, is it so difficult to find ropes and precipices?” Neither are these isolated incidents. There were numerous cases of Christians, alone or in groups, explicitly asking to be martyred, sometimes turning up with their hands already bound. It is hardly surprising that pagans dumped the bodies of Christian “martyrs” in the same place as other suicides - they presumably failed to notice any distinction.

Source: badnewsaboutchristianity.com/gba_christians.htm#_ednref25

Attachment to worldly goods is none other than the desire for life. We ourselves are worldly goods. God created us and our world, but the Christian spits upon creation and rejects it as the domain of “satan.”

In an attempt to purge oneself of worldly attachments, one purges away the essence of humanity. Only in the total extinction of ourselves can we be free from worldly attachments, and hence the Christian loves death and desires it intensely. For death is certainly not “worldly.” Death is perfect emptiness, perfectly unchanging, dispassionate, reasonable, and other-worldly. But this is foolishness!

We were not created seraphs, without bodies, circling God himself in perfect contemplation for eternity. We are created out of dust, and (paradoxically) to recognize this as our essence and destiny is to live. To embrace our nature as dust is to transcend it. But, to attempt to deny our nature as dust, to attempt to transcend it, is to be overtaken by it and destroyed in both soul and body.

Live OP! Live!

 

[Padres1969]

Counterpoint:

“We hear of the conversion of water into wine at the marriage in Cana, as of a miracle. But this conversion is, through the goodness of God, made every day before our eyes. Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, and which incorporates itself with the grapes to be changed into wine; a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy!”

 

[adamhovey1988]

Of course enjoying a Coke is sinful. Every good Catholic knows that Pepsi is the real thing (cf. Genesis 3: 25, CCC 7734). Every time I see someone enjoying Coke, I offer a Mass for them. :tiphat::yup:

RC Cola, yo. To be fair; I live in a place where you have RC Cola if you’re poor (well, poor by American standards) and Coke if you’re, well, at a restaurant. Southern culture doesn’t allow for Pepsi. With how Pepsi tastes, I think you may want to do series of Gregorian Masses. (Disclosure, I like Diet Dr. Pepper)

 

[RPRPsych]

RC Cola, yo. To be fair; I live in a place where you have RC Cola if you’re poor (well, poor by American standards) and Coke if you’re, well, at a restaurant. Southern culture doesn’t allow for Pepsi. With how Pepsi tastes, I think you may want to do series of Gregorian Masses. (Disclosure, I like Diet Dr. Pepper)

I’m actually more of a Mountain Dew guy, though post-marriage, I have made a comfortable transition to fruit juices.

All of which may or may not be evil. I think I’m as confused as our OP is.

(And how did you guess that I was going to do an EF Mass joke? I took it out as part of my pre-post editing routine. Lisez-vous dans les pensees, mon brave monsieur? )

 

[e_c]

This is like watching a tragic comedy. Let’s clear up some points.

Enjoying creation for its own sake is not evil. But it is not perfect, and one who is habitually inclined to do such through their will simply will not reach the lofty heights of prayer in this life.

The one who has completely detached himself from all worldly pleasures actually can enjoy them far more intensely than others… because it has become a prayer. Yes, the world is supposed to be enjoyed, but if enjoyed for its own sake then it’s not achieving its full purpose.

Mock it all you like. This is Gospel spirituality. I noticed nobody has provided a counter argument from a saint. (Or even just from a well known spiritual master.)

Read John. Read Teresa. Read Garrigou-Lagrange. Read the Fathers. Read whoever is well established in the heritage… They all interpret the Gospel this way.

Sometimes good news is scary. This is one of those instances.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Many people …

e_c: There is a lot of condescension in your writings. Have you ever heard of the phrase, “It’s easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar”?

Just a few examples:

• Many people don’t have a clue what the “nada” doctrine is.
• In other words, if you are enjoying some created thing for a reason other than that you have found God in it, you aren’t quite there yet.
• And such hissy fits really just prove the depth of one’s individual attachments and the lameness of attachment in general.
• This is certainly laughable…
• *and finally: *Commence the torrent of excuses, complaints, and theological backflips to try to get out of this.

I would ask you, are you “there” yet? Have you given up all things over to the Lord and do all things for love of Jesus? I would expect not, since that would mean that you no longer sin, have no attachment to sin, and are now perfect.

Rather than focusing so much on how we are not at this wonderful state of perfection and bliss you are at with God, why not come at with a teacher’s approach, like a coach would. I don’t call my kids stupid when they miss the mark, nor do I do it with condescension. It seems all you are doing here is admonishing people for their sins, but I ask you to look at the plank in your own eye first.

Maybe a better way to approach it is to explain what the “Nada” approach is and tell us how we can get there without all of the attitude about it.

 

[e_c]

e_c: There is a lot of condescension in your writings. Have you ever heard of the phrase, “It’s easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar”?

Just a few examples:

• Many people don’t have a clue what the “nada” doctrine is.
• In other words, if you are enjoying some created thing for a reason other than that you have found God in it, you aren’t quite there yet.
• And such hissy fits really just prove the depth of one’s individual attachments and the lameness of attachment in general.
• This is certainly laughable…
• *and finally: *Commence the torrent of excuses, complaints, and theological backflips to try to get out of this.

I would ask you, are you “there” yet? Have you given up all things over to the Lord and do all things for love of Jesus? I would expect not, since that would mean that you no longer sin, have no attachment to sin, and are now perfect.

Rather than focusing so much on how we are not at this wonderful state of perfection and bliss you are at with God, why not come at with a teacher’s approach, like a coach would. I don’t call my kids stupid when they miss the mark, nor do I do it with condescension. It seems all you are doing here is admonishing people for their sins, but I ask you to look at the plank in your own eye first.

Maybe a better way to approach it is to explain what the “Nada” approach is and tell us how we can get there without all of the attitude about it.

I think you should read the part where I invite people to join me in shrinking away, too. You have read in an acid which is simply not there. I did not and would not use myself as an example. You seem to think that I did… I am actually also preaching to myself. Until not that long ago I had no clue about the Nada doctrine, I have all kinds of lame attachments, am generally a wuss, etc. I have had the thoughts I’ve criticized.

It’s the internet. It’s hard sometimes to communicate well. I am certainly not a pro. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[Bookcat]

Nada doctrine

Note for readers:The phrase there makes the ideas of that particular Saint and Doctor of the Church sound as if they were some official teaching of the Church called the “nada doctrine” (as if one could look up “nada doctrine” in the Catechism). There is much that could be written on the Saints works etc but thought it is important to avoid the confusion. End of note.

 

[FollowChrist34]

“The smallest thing by the influence of eternity is made infinite and eternal. We pass through a standing continent or region of ages, that are already before us, glorious and perfect while we come to them. Like men in a ship we pass forward, the shores and marks seeming to go backward, though we move and they stand still. We are not with them in our progressive motion, but prevent the swiftness of our course, and are present with them in our understandings. Like the sun we dart our rays before us, and occupy those spaces with light and contemplation which we move towards, but possess not with our bodies. And seeing all things in the light of Divine knowledge, eternally serving God, rejoice unspeakable in that service, and enjoy it all.”
― Thomas Traherne, Centuries of Meditations

---

“You never enjoy the world aright, till the Sea itself floweth in your veins, till you are clothed with the heavens, and crowned with the stars: and perceive yourself to be the sole heir of the whole world, and more than so, because men are in it who are every one sole heirs as well as you. Till you can sing and rejoice and delight in God, as misers do in gold, and Kings in sceptres, you never enjoy the world.

Till your spirit filleth the whole world, and the stars are your jewels; till you are as familiar with the ways of God in all Ages as with your walk and table: till you are intimately acquainted with that shady nothing out of which the world was made: till you love men so as to desire their happiness, with a thirst equal to the zeal of your own: till you delight in God for being good to all: you never enjoy the world.”
― Thomas Traherne, Centuries Of Meditations

---

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.
–William Blake

 

[SilverShadow22]

“The smallest thing by the influence of eternity is made infinite and eternal. We pass through a standing continent or region of ages, that are already before us, glorious and perfect while we come to them. Like men in a ship we pass forward, the shores and marks seeming to go backward, though we move and they stand still. We are not with them in our progressive motion, but prevent the swiftness of our course, and are present with them in our understandings. Like the sun we dart our rays before us, and occupy those spaces with light and contemplation which we move towards, but possess not with our bodies. And seeing all things in the light of Divine knowledge, eternally serving God, rejoice unspeakable in that service, and enjoy it all.”
― Thomas Traherne, Centuries of Meditations

---

“You never enjoy the world aright, till the Sea itself floweth in your veins, till you are clothed with the heavens, and crowned with the stars: and perceive yourself to be the sole heir of the whole world, and more than so, because men are in it who are every one sole heirs as well as you. Till you can sing and rejoice and delight in God, as misers do in gold, and Kings in sceptres, you never enjoy the world.

Till your spirit filleth the whole world, and the stars are your jewels; till you are as familiar with the ways of God in all Ages as with your walk and table: till you are intimately acquainted with that shady nothing out of which the world was made: till you love men so as to desire their happiness, with a thirst equal to the zeal of your own: till you delight in God for being good to all: you never enjoy the world.”
― Thomas Traherne, Centuries Of Meditations

---

To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.
–William Blake

…that is all really, really beautiful…

 

[PumpkinCookie]

What it means is a systematic destruction of the satisfaction of one’s appetites for created things for their own sake. …] Put plainly, “worldly” enjoyment is an aberration of the true purpose of the pleasures of created things. …] Finally, one will hopefully be inclined to resign and to pick up his cross each day, denying himself (his appetites) in everything he can while still doing his duty. We are, after all, to renounce EVERYTHING for His sake. …] Commence the torrent of excuses, complaints, and theological backflips to try to get out of this. (Also, re-read the part in bold and the title of the thread.)

From the very first Christianity was, essentially and thoroughly, life’s nausea and disgust for life, which only disguised, concealed and decked itself out under the belief in “another” or “better” life. The hatred of the “world,” the curse on the affections, the fear of beauty and sensuality, another world, invented for the purpose of slandering this world the more, at bottom a longing for nothingness, for the end, for rest, for the “Sabbath of Sabbaths” all this, as also the unconditional will of Christianity to recognise only moral values, has always appeared to me as the most dangerous and ominous of all possible forms of a “will to perish;” at the least, as the symptom of a most fatal disease, of profoundest weariness, despondency, exhaustion, impoverishment of life, for before the tribunal of morality (especially Christian, that is, unconditional morality) life must constantly and inevitably be the loser, because life is some thing essentially unmoral, indeed, oppressed with the weight of contempt and the everlasting No, life must finally be regarded as unworthy of desire, as in itself unworthy.

• F. Neitzsche Birth of The Tragedy

You’re right OP. The early fathers and greatest saints of Christianity hated life. They yearned for martyrdom, apocalypse, and cataclysm. They dreamed of destruction and hell. And, you’re right, you will never reach the heights of contemplative prayer unless you destroy your life as much as possible.

We are inevitably imperfect. We were created imperfect. Pure love of God in contemplation is not natural, it is not human, it is a fanciful creature of the will to death. Christianity fails to recognize our essence as dust and therefore elevates man to a height not meant for him, paradoxically lowering him below beasts, who always obey their natures.

 

[FollowChrist34]

• F. Neitzsche Birth of The Tragedy

You’re right OP. The early fathers and greatest saints of Christianity hated life. They yearned for martyrdom, apocalypse, and cataclysm. They dreamed of destruction and hell. And, you’re right, you will never reach the heights of contemplative prayer unless you destroy your life as much as possible.

We are inevitably imperfect. We were created imperfect. Pure love of God in contemplation is not natural, it is not human, it is a fanciful creature of the will to death. Christianity fails to recognize our essence as dust and therefore elevates man to a height not meant for him, paradoxically lowering him below beasts, who always obey their natures.

After seeing a horse being whipped in the streets of Turin, Italy, Nietzsche had a mental breakdown that put him in an asylum for the rest of his life. Nietzsche is reported to have run over to the horse, sobbing, and held it in his arm to protect it before he collapsed to the ground.

After the horse incident Nietzsche “returned to his boarding house, danced naked” and thought of shooting the Kaiser. Botton continues to explain that Nietzsche began to believe himself to be Jesus, Napoleon, Buddha and other historical figures. Nietzsche’s family threw him into asylum where he died 11 years later at the age of 56.

“Mutter, ich bin dumm.” So much for the Will to Power. Not to worry - I personally think this horse encounter was his finest moment.

**

I like a look of Agony,
Because I know it’s true—
Men do not sham Convulsion,
Nor simulate, a Throe—

 

[TIK]

OP is more or less correct in describing the contemplative path imo, although he/she is a bit confrontational about it for some reason that escapes me.

It’s true that it is not sinful, and in fact a good thing to enjoy creation for its own sake. But it is even better to throw off the shackles of creation and enjoy God directly, which paradoxically heightens your enjoyment of creation beyond what you would have experienced otherwise.

I’ve never been there myself, but I’ve heard that things start to get really trippy when you get to the point where you are so detached from creation that you aren’t even seeking God because you want to spiritually enjoy him. You aren’t seeking him because he regularly gives you mystical experiences, or a “sense of peace” or good spiritual or psychological feelings in general, but instead you are seeking God out of pure and blind faith, completely self-sacrificial love, and an absolutely impenetrable Hope

I think it was st John of the Cross who described it as a “dark night of the soul”. This is my understanding of how it goes down:

1. 
   *]First of all you must stop seeking pleasure in sinful habits. This is initial purgation/purification.
   *]After this you must stop seeking pleasure in lawful places, for example enjoying creation for its own sake. (again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding pleasure in creation, but you must stop if you want to achieve perfection)
   *]It is at this point where you may start to have intense mystical experiences/ very satisfying contemplative prayer and meditation, as you are enjoying God directly.
   *]During this time God will slowly drop you into the “dark night of the soul”. This is where he slowly stops giving you mystical experiences so as to test whether or not you will remain devoted to him and continue to seek him even in the absence of reward or pleasure. It is at this point where Hope may turn to despair, faith might crumble as you seek God but can no longer find him, and your love may be revealed as a selfish love, which only sought God because of the spiritual rewards that God provides when someone seeks him.
   *]If you continue to seek God even despite being in this dark night of the soul; if you continue to have faith in him, love him, and hope that he will deliver you out of the darkness despite the fact that he seems infinitely distant: then it is at this point that you achieve theosis/divinization/the perfection of charity/union with God (there are lots of ways of referring to the same thing. I guess you know it when you experience it and it’s probably so beyond our everyday experience that it is ultimately indescribable)

 

[e_c]

• F. Neitzsche Birth of The Tragedy

You’re right OP. The early fathers and greatest saints of Christianity hated life. They yearned for martyrdom, apocalypse, and cataclysm. They dreamed of destruction and hell. And, you’re right, you will never reach the heights of contemplative prayer unless you destroy your life as much as possible.

We are inevitably imperfect. We were created imperfect. Pure love of God in contemplation is not natural, it is not human, it is a fanciful creature of the will to death. Christianity fails to recognize our essence as dust and therefore elevates man to a height not meant for him, paradoxically lowering him below beasts, who always obey their natures.

You are right about some of the earliest martyrs, but that is something extraordinary. This is an ordinary thing that I am proposing.

It can, however, easily become Jansenism, Albigensianism, etc.

 

[e_c]

OP is more or less correct in describing the contemplative path imo, although he/she is a bit confrontational about it for some reason that escapes me.

It’s true that it is not sinful, and in fact a good thing to enjoy creation for its own sake. But it is even better to throw off the shackles of creation and enjoy God directly, which paradoxically heightens your enjoyment of creation beyond what you would have experienced otherwise.

I’ve never been there myself, but I’ve heard that things start to get really trippy when you get to the point where you are so detached from creation that you aren’t even seeking God because you want to spiritually enjoy him. You aren’t seeking him because he regularly gives you mystical experiences, or a “sense of peace” or good spiritual or psychological feelings in general, but instead you are seeking God out of pure and blind faith, completely self-sacrificial love, and an absolutely impenetrable Hope

I think it was st John of the Cross who described it as a “dark night of the soul”. This is my understanding of how it goes down:

1. 
   *]First of all you must stop seeking pleasure in sinful habits. This is initial purgation/purification.
   *]After this you must stop seeking pleasure in lawful places, for example enjoying creation for its own sake. (again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding pleasure in creation, but you must stop if you want to achieve perfection)
   *]It is at this point where you may start to have intense mystical experiences/ very satisfying contemplative prayer and meditation, as you are enjoying God directly.
   *]During this time God will slowly drop you into the “dark night of the soul”. This is where he slowly stops giving you mystical experiences so as to test whether or not you will remain devoted to him and continue to seek him even in the absence of reward or pleasure. It is at this point where Hope may turn to despair, faith might crumble as you seek God but can no longer find him, and your love may be revealed as a selfish love, which only sought God because of the spiritual rewards that God provides when someone seeks him.
   *]If you continue to seek God even despite being in this dark night of the soul; if you continue to have faith in him, love him, and hope that he will deliver you out of the darkness despite the fact that he seems infinitely distant: then it is at this point that you achieve theosis/divinization/the perfection of charity/union with God (there are lots of ways of referring to the same thing. I guess you know it when you experience it and it’s probably so beyond our everyday experience that it is ultimately indescribable)

1. 
   Alas! I tried to use some playful banter to get the point across, but it came off as condescension and confrontation! Apologies.
   
   You have the right idea… there are two passive purifications, or dark nights… one of the senses, one of the spirit. They are quite different. You can look at John for details. What “Nada” is about is our active purification.

 

[Rosebud77]

This is like watching a tragic comedy. Let’s clear up some points.

Enjoying creation for its own sake is not evil. But it is not perfect, and one who is habitually inclined to do such through their will simply will not reach the lofty heights of prayer in this life.

The one who has completely detached himself from all worldly pleasures actually can enjoy them far more intensely than others… because it has become a prayer. Yes, the world is supposed to be enjoyed, but if enjoyed for its own sake then it’s not achieving its full purpose.

Mock it all you like. This is Gospel spirituality. I noticed nobody has provided a counter argument from a saint. (Or even just from a well known spiritual master.)

Read John. Read Teresa. Read Garrigou-Lagrange. Read the Fathers. Read whoever is well established in the heritage… They all interpret the Gospel this way.

Sometimes good news is scary. This is one of those instances.

so all os for self and nothing for others? no giving? just intellectual highs? And Jesus?

 

[Rosebud77]

This is like watching a tragic comedy. Let’s clear up some points.

Enjoying creation for its own sake is not evil. But it is not perfect, and one who is habitually inclined to do such through their will simply will not reach the lofty heights of prayer in this life.

The one who has completely detached himself from all worldly pleasures actually can enjoy them far more intensely than others… because it has become a prayer. Yes, the world is supposed to be enjoyed, but if enjoyed for its own sake then it’s not achieving its full purpose.

Mock it all you like. This is Gospel spirituality. I noticed nobody has provided a counter argument from a saint. (Or even just from a well known spiritual master.)

Read John. Read Teresa. Read Garrigou-Lagrange. Read the Fathers. Read whoever is well established in the heritage… They all interpret the Gospel this way.

Sometimes good news is scary. This is one of those instances.

Oh in no way scary… been there done that and learned to do better

 

[LethalMouse]

A note on enjoying life vs chasing martyrdom as some have mentioned in the early christian tendency.

Moses leads a wonderius example. He was struck down for his frustration with God right? Yet also, he was admitted to heaven???

Now what manner of punishment is heaven exactly?

Well like if we leave a job for a much much better one or any such stage of life. We may improve thing greatly but miss out on that which we could have accomplished or the aspects we did enjoy.

To chase down death and martyrdom is to perhaps love God, but still incompletely. As with Moses he failed to be granted accomplishing the final aspect of God’s given mission to him due to his faulter.

In some senses his lack of earthly accomplishment is near meaningless in the grand scheme of heaven, yet from then to now and until all eternity his punishment is that the thing he chose to be frustrated about shall be the thing he can never do.

If you hate the world and forgo it in completion it is to be noted that the world was made by God. So you still are not accepting in a way the totality of all that is of God. You may have more of God than most. You may have a one way highway to heaven, and you may have much greatness. But still nonetheless your truest appreciation of God is in some degree incomplete.

So as to destroy your life to see God is to destroy a peice of what God gives and to see Him with not a compkete view even if a better one, but with a missing piece that will be ever left unattainable in a sense.

The human aspects of christianity often emphasize asoects of failure as great. Yet Moses was good and had much clout and got to heaven, the saints are fewer and further between, but there are those whose lives on earth were good, and in a few cases even grand and successful. It can be done, and to see God now on earth without chasing success for itself is more likely to lend to be the rich man who passes like the camel through the needles eye. Finding both aspects is the key.

 

[e_c]

A note on enjoying life vs chasing martyrdom as some have mentioned in the early christian tendency.

Moses leads a wonderius example. He was struck down for his frustration with God right? Yet also, he was admitted to heaven???

Now what manner of punishment is heaven exactly?

Well like if we leave a job for a much much better one or any such stage of life. We may improve thing greatly but miss out on that which we could have accomplished or the aspects we did enjoy.

To chase down death and martyrdom is to perhaps love God, but still incompletely. As with Moses he failed to be granted accomplishing the final aspect of God’s given mission to him due to his faulter.

In some senses his lack of earthly accomplishment is near meaningless in the grand scheme of heaven, yet from then to now and until all eternity his punishment is that the thing he chose to be frustrated about shall be the thing he can never do.

If you hate the world and forgo it in completion it is to be noted that the world was made by God. So you still are not accepting in a way the totality of all that is of God. You may have more of God than most. You may have a one way highway to heaven, and you may have much greatness. But still nonetheless your truest appreciation of God is in some degree incomplete.

So as to destroy your life to see God is to destroy a peice of what God gives and to see Him with not a compkete view even if a better one, but with a missing piece that will be ever left unattainable in a sense.

The human aspects of christianity often emphasize asoects of failure as great. Yet Moses was good and had much clout and got to heaven, the saints are fewer and further between, but there are those whose lives on earth were good, and in a few cases even grand and successful. It can be done, and to see God now on earth without chasing success for itself is more likely to lend to be the rich man who passes like the camel through the needles eye. Finding both aspects is the key.

Would you really reprove Ignatius of Antioch? Something seems off about that. If someone has a desire like that implanted in them, and they aren’t presumptuous of grace, then why should they not have a lust for death? St. Paul says as much… for him life is Christ, death is gain. Then there is the young Teresa, who ran away to try to be killed by the Moors… that was not a good idea. The Little Flower too found her desire for martyrdom unattainable, so she took the “little way” instead. It’s not for everyone, but it is for some. Read also Anthony Claret’s account of his desire to be harmed for the Faith, and how he was then nearly killed by a knife. He was very pleased! Just like the apostles after being flogged in Acts.

Shouldn’t we use as if not using, like Paul exhorts? Put another way, if you aren’t bound to do something, and it isn’t helping you attain a closer relationship with God, why exactly are you doing it?

 

[LethalMouse]

Would you really reprove Ignatius of Antioch? Something seems off about that. If someone has a desire like that implanted in them, and they aren’t presumptuous of grace, then why should they not have a lust for death? St. Paul says as much… for him life is Christ, death is gain. Then there is the young Teresa, who ran away to try to be killed by the Moors… that was not a good idea. The Little Flower too found her desire for martyrdom unattainable, so she took the “little way” instead. It’s not for everyone, but it is for some. Read also Anthony Claret’s account of his desire to be harmed for the Faith, and how he was then nearly killed by a knife. He was very pleased! Just like the apostles after being flogged in Acts.

Shouldn’t we use as if not using, like Paul exhorts? Put another way, if you aren’t bound to do something, and it isn’t helping you attain a closer relationship with God, why exactly are you doing it?

But are you and could you?

Camel through the needles eye…

Bell curve…

Compared to 10 billion the martyr may be best.

Compared to the 1 who is the camel through the needle, the martyr is second.

I do not say it is not a grand thing, I say there may be grander.

And to be the truest martyr of God’s will you will be where he puts you. To be a martyr sought and dreamed might one seek their benifits?

Martyrdom is a way to glory and eternal bliss, martyrdom is selfish ina sense.

I believe there is a quote along the lines of “death is the easy part, living is hard”

Martyr me direct? Pffft tis easy, I can stand before the executioner and refuse to deny God any day.

Live and stand before the person whom you may never know spoke of you that led to a soeaking that led to that promotion fail… much more difficult.

Why do people suicide? Because to them even if they think hell may await them it is better in their eyes than life.

Love God truly completely and alwsys and earth, hell, purgatory or heaven itself is still heaven.

So I do not say the martyr is not more holy than the normal, but I question how holy they are to he that lives in a heavenly state always now and forever.

There is a effort ina sense to “prove” something to God to find Him and be with Him.

If you have already “proven” it, already found Him, and are already with Him the rest of what humans do is not relevant to your existence.