Is it wrong to lie if it will save a baby's life?

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Scenario: Two pro-lifers make an appointment at an abortion clinic. One pretends she is pregnant, the other is there as a friend. While walking in, they take the sidewalk counselors’ information, and sit in the waiting room looking it over. Then they start talking with the other girls in there, asking how far along they are etc. Then the “pregnant” girl starts saying, “Well, I don’t know, I mean, it already has a heartbeat, that’s what they say.” “I don’t know if I can do it.” “I’m scared, I heard the abortion really hurts, and those people outside said they can help me.” “I can’t do it.” and so on and then walk out.
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  My friends and I were talking about switching places with the sidewalk counselors at the other abortion clinic and have them make an appointment at the one we counsel at and vice versa (that way they won't recognize us). Some people I know have done this before and through this, have encouraged other abortion-mided women to walk out. In fact, a priest told them that once, the entire waiting room was persuaded by this and walked out. Every single girl walked out! He said the girls just needed someone else that had the courage not to go through with it and they followed her. 

   But here's my question; is it wrong to lie and make an appointment under a false name and pretend you are pregnant and seeking an abortion, even though it can really SAVE a baby's life and spare the mother the pain of an abortion?
 
*pro-life_teen*:
But here’s my question; is it wrong to lie and make an appointment under a false name and pretend you are pregnant and seeking an abortion, even though it can really SAVE a baby’s life and spare the mother the pain of an abortion?
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Dang…I think, technically, it is wrong…but that really stinks.
The thing is, lying is as intrinsically evil action. Mental reservation can be different, though.

The trick would be to find a way that you could accomplish the same goal without directly lying to them. To make them think one way, without you directly telling them that. They would have to make the assumption all on their own, and then you would still have to tell them the truth if they ever directly asked you for it. So, no, you couldn’t lie…but there might be a loophole. I just don’t know for sure what it is right now! 😉
 
I recall in the movie “The Sound of Music” that the parents and nuns in the Monastery lied to the Nazi authorities on their intentions/where about in order to escape the control/consequence of that evil regime.

Also, consider this scripture from Jesus:

Matthew**, Chapter 10:16 “**"Behold, I am sending you like sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves.”

Better yet, submit this question to AAA.
 
ProlifeTeen: First, I admire your commitment to this issue at such an early stage in your life. I also admire your willingness to put yourself on the line to save an innocent life. There are many Jews, Catholics and individuals of mixed ethnicity from Nazi-occupied Europe who owed their survival to the courage of strangers who put their own lives on the line and lied to officials to protect them. There are, hoewever a few things to think about first.

First…I have no idea of your age or emancipation status–and if you are still a minor living at home, you need to discuss this “plan” with your parents before you take any action. If they object…that’s the end of it. Consider that by pursuing this course of action you could be charged with a crime (tresspassing/gaining access under false pretenses, disorderly conduct, public nuisance or violating a statute that relates to protecting access to abortion services all come to mind) and you could be baiting a police record–not a positive when it comes to college & job applications, volunteer participation, etc…regardless of your motivation.

On the other hand if you are interested in obtaining the facts about exactly what young, preganant women are counseled to do in these clinics, you can always make an appointment for a pregnancy test. It would allow you access and an opportunity to listen to their “counseling.” It might also expose you to others who are there for any number of reasons, including having an abortion. It is not the false representation that claiming you are already pregnant and wanting an abortion presents. You might not necessarily change any minds, but you might find yourself a more informed, thus more effective advocate.
 
Pardon me, I used to work with attorneys (aka serpents).

If one were to “think” or “be afraid” about being pregnant, the counselor might very-well “throw themselves at the conclusion” that you were/might be pregnant.

After all, even Mary was able to conceive without knowing a man, so technically …

Additionally, many clinics also masquerade as birth control centers, I do not know if they have seperate waiting rooms, but that would seem likely.

Even our Lord could be pretty adept at leading a person to understand something without Him ever saying it. This ability helped him minister for three years.

I concur that you should receive your parents’ approval, as they are the ones that could conceivably have to post bail if the “play” goes bad.
 
This technique has been used by several pro-life organizations. They are called Truth Teams. You can contact the Pro-Life Action League in Chicago for more information on the best way to implement a Truth Team and make sure you stay within the law, etc.
 
I might be wrong, but I’ve heard lying itself isn’t a sin. Rather, the commandment uses the phrase “bearing false witness”. Lies such as telling your wife that dinner taste wonderful or she hasn’t gained any weight aren’t sinful. Is lying about whether you are pregnant and entering an abortion clinic sinful? I’m not sure. When the lie damages someone or something else I believe it becomes sinful. But when it has the intent of saving an unborn life, I don’t know because where do you draw the line? Is it okay to destroy an abortion clinic even if it is done while no one is there? If I had to decide I would say it is okay to lie about the pregnancy as no property and no one gets hurt. In the destruction of the clinic senerio, other business nearby could be seriously hurt, even if no one is bodily hurt, severe damage could occur to property, and hurting other’s livelyhood.

Ron
 
*pro-life_teen*:
Scenario: Two pro-lifers make an appointment at an abortion clinic. One pretends she is pregnant, the other is there as a friend. While walking in, they take the sidewalk counselors’ information, and sit in the waiting room looking it over. Then they start talking with the other girls in there, asking how far along they are etc. Then the “pregnant” girl starts saying, “Well, I don’t know, I mean, it already has a heartbeat, that’s what they say.” “I don’t know if I can do it.” “I’m scared, I heard the abortion really hurts, and those people outside said they can help me.” “I can’t do it.” and so on and then walk out.

My friends and I were talking about switching places with the sidewalk counselors at the other abortion clinic and have them make an appointment at the one we counsel at and vice versa (that way they won’t recognize us). Some people I know have done this before and through this, have encouraged other abortion-mided women to walk out. In fact, a priest told them that once, the entire waiting room was persuaded by this and walked out. Every single girl walked out! He said the girls just needed someone else that had the courage not to go through with it and they followed her.

But here’s my question; is it wrong to lie and make an appointment under a false name and pretend you are pregnant and seeking an abortion, even though it can really SAVE a baby’s life and spare the mother the pain of an abortion?
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Lying is always wrong - period. Here is (some of) what the CCC says.​

[. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.2485By its very nature, lying is to be condemned](http://scborromeo.org/index2.htm)

A link from EWTN on mental reservation:

According to the common Catholic teaching it is never allowable to tell a lie, not even to save human life. A lie is something intrinsically evil, and as evil may not be done that good may come of it, we are never allowed to tell a lie.

That is the easy bit - the difficult bit, is the living out in our lives of what we should do. To give information or advice is easy, if a problem is not one’s own.

The trouble with cutting corners by using sinful means to obtain a good thing or avoid a bad thing, is that sin darkens the conscience, and makes it harder to be sensitive to God. And if we tell lies, we are doing something that is distorted - “everyone does it” is not an excuse; everyone is a sinner - but that is not an excuse for sinning. And our sins may well have effects that we cannot foresee. Abortion is wrong - and we cannot fight wrong with wrong: that merely replaces one wrong by another.

Jesus is God’s Truth - that is why we should honour Him by our truthfulness.

Hope that helps ##
 
Gottle of Geer:
A link from EWTN on mental reservation:

According to the common Catholic teaching it is never allowable to tell a lie, not even to save human life. A lie is something intrinsically evil, and as evil may not be done that good may come of it, we are never allowed to tell a lie.
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Here is another take from AAA:

Is it okay to lie under certain circumstances?

“In stressful situations, however, it can be difficult to methodically decide to reserve information. If one simply blurted out a lie in order to justly protect an innocent person, the situation would be similar to the person who takes a loaf of bread from a rich person in order to feed his starving family. In each case it may appear to be a sinful situation, but the underlying self-defense or defense of the innocent would mean that an action that was otherwise sinful was not sinful in this case.”
 
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felra:
“In stressful situations, however, it can be difficult to methodically decide to reserve information. If one simply blurted out a lie in order to justly protect an innocent person, the situation would be similar to the person who takes a loaf of bread from a rich person in order to feed his starving family. In each case it may appear to be a sinful situation, but the underlying self-defense or defense of the innocent would mean that an action that was otherwise sinful was not sinful in this case.”
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This sounds very reasonable to me.

In the case in point, I’m not sure how this defense would hold up when one specifically goes into a situation planning to lie, compared to someone who just got caught surprised.

For example, the old example of lying when the Nazis come looking for Jews and you say there aren’t any in the house. You aren’t bearing false witness against anybody. You have saved a human life.

In the abortion situation, you could look at it like you were a spy doing recon on enemy territory. Is it a sin to be a spy to defeat one’s enemy, if one sees it as self-defense or protection of innocent ones? Not just a verbal lie, but pretending to be an ally to (or customer of) the enemy when you are not?

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
This sounds very reasonable to me.

In the case in point, I’m not sure how this defense would hold up when one specifically goes into a situation planning to lie, compared to someone who just got caught surprised.

For example, the old example of lying when the Nazis come looking for Jews and you say there aren’t any in the house. You aren’t bearing false witness against anybody. You have saved a human life. I heard on Catholic Answers Live that in a situation like this, it is not considered lying. That is considered mental reservation, hiding info from those who don’t need to know. The Nazi doesn’t need to know that there are Jews living in the house.

In the abortion situation, you could look at it like you were a spy doing recon on enemy territory. Is it a sin to be a spy to defeat one’s enemy, if one sees it as self-defense or protection of innocent ones? Not just a verbal lie, but pretending to be an ally to (or customer of) the enemy when you are not?

Alan
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In this situation it wouldn’t be wrong. Just remember that the Jesuits started out as “spies” too. They would act like they weren’t Catholic to help the Church. This is the same kind of thing; you’ll be helping people.
 
We’re allowed to kill in defense of our lives or the innocent life of another, but lying to defend the innocent life of another is a sin?

I don’t understand.

I believe it was on Catholic Answers, a Catholic pro-life advocate reported on how they had called hundreds of abortion clinics all over the country with the woman pretending to be 13 and a boyfriend 18 or 25 or 30.

They caught the abortion clinic workers saying things like, “Okay, if you go any farther or give me any more personal information, I’m required by law to report this to the police. So what I need you to do is call back anonymously and do not mention your boyfriend’s age. Or tell the person on the phone that your boyfriend is 15.”

They are forcing local law enforcement agencies to prosecute cases of sexual activity of minors, but they are “lying” in order to gather evidence.

I know that Priests are not perfect, but would he advocate such an activity if this is something Our Lord condemns?

And does Our Lord condemn a lie in the protection of a life, while He allows defense of a life, even when it results in the death of the attacker?

Elizabeth
 
Endless rules will never pin down exactly what you can say in any given situation. They can only give guidelines and examples as to what is OK and what is not. There are too many convolutions for any finite volume of rules to take into effect.

This is where forming my own conscience comes in handy. It is also where faith would have me believe the right words will come at the right time.

Of course, what my conscience will allow waxes and wanes with the moment, as I get peripheral intuitive knowledge over just what situation I’m in.

When I try to put my personal guidelines into words, I try to go by “thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”

To me, that means that if I lie about my neighbor to get him in trouble, then it’s “my bad” so to speak. If I lie to thwart what I believe to be an evil attack against my neighbor, I don’t feel a bit guilty about it – to the extent that I can pull it off without giving it away! :rolleyes: Other than that, I normally tell the truth because I seem to be compusively honest (gets me in trouble sometimes) and I like the way that at least people who know me will know I will not lie to them. They can trust me to say to their face what I would say behind their backs – ok, maybe paraphrased a bit. :o

Alan
 
Yes, talk that one over with a priest…

However after you mentioned this I wondered if you could do it by not lying at all somehow…I am sure there are pregnant women who have considered abortion previously and if they “broke down” and stated in public why they couldn’t do it and how they found help and so on…This isn’t lying…I think they have womens who have changed thier mind about abortion speak up often like this…even better…but I am not sure if anyone does this…
That would have been my choice.

But trust the priest since he is the one with the Theology background.
 
One of the great Desert Fathers, Abba Alonius, said:

"If you do not lie, you will commit many sins."
 
I can never agree that lying is always wrong. It’s not always black or white. :hmmm:
 
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AlanFromWichita:
For example, the old example of lying when the Nazis come looking for Jews and you say there aren’t any in the house. You aren’t bearing false witness against anybody. You have saved a human life.
Click to expand...
My religion teacher explained it to me like this.
That is an example is mental reservation, which can be used under certain circumstances for a good intention. Because what the Nazi is really intending to ask you is “Are there any Jews in your house that we can kill?” The intent of their request is still fully implied there, so you can still morally respond with a “No.” to mislead them in the answer to their question. 👍
 
Interesting question you’ve brought up here. I guess my perspective is different. Let’s say you lie (by omission, by mental reservation , whatever you call it - still a lie) and do as you have proposed.

The assumption is that these girls don’t get an abortion. That may not be true. They may go elsewhere or come back another day. I hope they do not, but it is not known.

It is a real problem with someone lying to another in the name of christian faith. What if they find out you lied? What if they feel like you pulled some kind of “scam” on them? What if??? Can you see what a horrible example this would be of christian truth to these women? That is why the church CCC says it’s better to just not do it. It’s basicly ‘the road to h*** is paved with good intentions’ theory. (And I do commend your intentions here!) I would hate to think these ladies would end up with a hard heart towards Christ because of this type of thing being done.

Also, keep in mind when using that Nazi scenario for an example - the pregnant mother would be the Nazi and her baby the threatened Jew. Yes, there are horrible cases where that may fit, but most of the time these girls are just desperate, ignorant, and helpless - not willfull murderers. Paint the clinic that way, but I think doing that with these pregnant women is going to backfire. Save the soul of the mother with Christ’s truth and that baby will be okay.
**I liked Island Oaks opinion on this better.👍 **
 
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