J
jmv
Guest
It looks like the only option is for you to get pregnant and then go in there with your spiel. That’d give you 9 months of lie-free work on the inside…
- Status
A
Andrew_11
Guest
You are saving a baby’s life, and you aren’t hurting anyone in anyway, I do not see how this could possibly be sinful, it isn’t really an outright lie. Its just an act like a spy would do when undercover.
B
Brad
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:
I’m having difficulty with this application of theology.
It would be ok to kill someone that is attempting to kill someone else to prevent the killing. So why would lying to someone that is attempting to kill someone else to prevent the killing be wrong? Is lying worse than killing?
P
_pro-life_teen
Guest
Hmmm… well, I’m kinda more confused now than I was before… but I do really appreciate everyone’s imput.
This was my favorite piece of advice though :
jmv:
What if I just, as someone said before, go in for a pregnancy test?
What would YOU do in the situation?
thanks, God bless!
This was my favorite piece of advice though
:
And I had thought of what if I befriend one of the girls and then have to later on tell her I’m not pregnant? she would feel so betrayed, I bet.It looks like the only option is for you to get pregnant and then go in there with your spiel. That’d give you 9 months of lie-free work on the inside…
What if I just, as someone said before, go in for a pregnancy test?
What would YOU do in the situation?
thanks, God bless!
B
bogeyjlg
Guest
“Do no evil that good may come of it.”
-It is in one of the epistles (can’t remember which).
“The road to hell is paved in good intentions.”
-Saying (don’t know where it came from)
-It is in one of the epistles (can’t remember which).
“The road to hell is paved in good intentions.”
-Saying (don’t know where it came from)
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Not all killing is murder, therefore not all killing
is the sin of murder.But lying, is of its very nature sinful. Lying leads to more lies - not to truthfulness. Mental reservations are permitted, because such a reservation lacks the malice and deformity present in a lie - but “permitted” is the operative word; the less they are used, the better, because we should always seek to be truthful.
FWIW, I think the CCC is to be followed on this - not the moralists, if they differ from it. ##
Lying is diabolical - “the devil is the father of lies” (John 8.44)
That’s bad enough.So is murder - the difference is, that by lying, one is doing something diabolical in order to avoid something diabolical. Which makes no sense: we cannot do evil so as to avoid an evil’s being done.
Murderers have no part in the world to come - neither do liars:
- 1John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
- Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
- Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
It eats away at the trust people should be able to have in one another.
A liar is very hard to trust even when he is being strictly truthful, because his previous lies have made him untrustworthy.
Murder kills the body - lying kills the soul. The mouth with which we bless the God of truth, should not be a mouth which brings forth falsehoods.
Hope that helps ##
T
tuopaolo
Guest
In addition to 2458 which said lying is to be condemned “by its very nature” the Catechism of the Catholic Church also condemns lying as intrinsically evil here:
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).
Lying is defined in the present edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 2483:
“To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error”
So lying can involve not only verbal speech but also any act.
A mental reservation is not an exception to lying (there are no exceptions according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church) A mental reservation (or the kind that is sometimes permissible) is where a person says something which owing to the context in which it is said while veiling the truth, does not contradict it. For example, if a priest is asked if a particular man has committed a certain crime and he knows by way of confession that he has, the priest can answer, “No he did not.” While prima facie that may seem like lying it need not be since in this context what is meant by those words is “As far as you are concerned, no, he did not” or “As far as the knowledge that I am permitted to convey is concerned, no he did not.”
In the case talked about in the original post, I believe that the goal can be accomplished without any lying. If someone goes in not with any intention to contradict the truth and lead anyone into error but rather with the intention to under the protective veil of an undercover character to give the women there access to the truth that the abortion clinic prevents them from having and not by means of attempting to deceive them in any way, then it need not involve any kind of lying. IOW if you are not in any way trying to make the women believe something that is not true or that you are someone other than who you are but are simply hiding who you are not from the women but rather from the operators of the abortion facility who would bar you if you didn’t hide it, then it need not involve any lying.
So for example, trying to make the women believe that you are scared of having an abortion when you are not as a means to get them to not have an abortion would indeed be lying. However, narrating to an abortion facility operator in the prescence of the women that you are scared of having an abortion not with any intention of making the women believe that but simply as part of the background necessary to hide from the abortion facility operator that you are working “undercover” need not be lying. To be more specific, if you say, “I’m scared of having an abortion” trying to make the other women scared (and thus avoid abortion) on account of your being scared then that is lying. But, if you say, “My name is Mary and I am scared of having an abortion and I am concerned if it’s right or wrong” not as a means to try to make the other women scared too on account of your being scared, but rather as a means of trying to make the other women reflect on whether abortion is right or wrong, then you are not trying to lead them into error in any way so you wouldn’t be lying to them.
The statements taken out of context which seem erroneous are simply a kind of camouflage which allows you to operate as far as possible in that environment in the service of the truth. Just as it is not lying for a soldier to wear camouflage that makes him look like a tree, it is also not lying to assume the role of a character (just like actors do in films or plays) that makes you look to the abortion facility operators like an ordinary woman. In the first case this is because part of the rules of war which rules can be known by anyone are that in the context of a war acts are not to be taken at face value (just is in the context of some games like poker, owing to their rules, acts are not to be taken at face value – bluffing is part of the fun of poker and like games). The moral war against abortion promoters is similar enough to an ordinary war that in the context of this moral war the rules are such that acts by pro-life forces are not to be taken at face value by the enemy (i.e. the abortion promoters).
Of course just because something does not constitute lying does not mean it is necessarily right.
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).
Lying is defined in the present edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church in 2483:
“To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error”
So lying can involve not only verbal speech but also any act.
A mental reservation is not an exception to lying (there are no exceptions according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church) A mental reservation (or the kind that is sometimes permissible) is where a person says something which owing to the context in which it is said while veiling the truth, does not contradict it. For example, if a priest is asked if a particular man has committed a certain crime and he knows by way of confession that he has, the priest can answer, “No he did not.” While prima facie that may seem like lying it need not be since in this context what is meant by those words is “As far as you are concerned, no, he did not” or “As far as the knowledge that I am permitted to convey is concerned, no he did not.”
In the case talked about in the original post, I believe that the goal can be accomplished without any lying. If someone goes in not with any intention to contradict the truth and lead anyone into error but rather with the intention to under the protective veil of an undercover character to give the women there access to the truth that the abortion clinic prevents them from having and not by means of attempting to deceive them in any way, then it need not involve any kind of lying. IOW if you are not in any way trying to make the women believe something that is not true or that you are someone other than who you are but are simply hiding who you are not from the women but rather from the operators of the abortion facility who would bar you if you didn’t hide it, then it need not involve any lying.
So for example, trying to make the women believe that you are scared of having an abortion when you are not as a means to get them to not have an abortion would indeed be lying. However, narrating to an abortion facility operator in the prescence of the women that you are scared of having an abortion not with any intention of making the women believe that but simply as part of the background necessary to hide from the abortion facility operator that you are working “undercover” need not be lying. To be more specific, if you say, “I’m scared of having an abortion” trying to make the other women scared (and thus avoid abortion) on account of your being scared then that is lying. But, if you say, “My name is Mary and I am scared of having an abortion and I am concerned if it’s right or wrong” not as a means to try to make the other women scared too on account of your being scared, but rather as a means of trying to make the other women reflect on whether abortion is right or wrong, then you are not trying to lead them into error in any way so you wouldn’t be lying to them.
The statements taken out of context which seem erroneous are simply a kind of camouflage which allows you to operate as far as possible in that environment in the service of the truth. Just as it is not lying for a soldier to wear camouflage that makes him look like a tree, it is also not lying to assume the role of a character (just like actors do in films or plays) that makes you look to the abortion facility operators like an ordinary woman. In the first case this is because part of the rules of war which rules can be known by anyone are that in the context of a war acts are not to be taken at face value (just is in the context of some games like poker, owing to their rules, acts are not to be taken at face value – bluffing is part of the fun of poker and like games). The moral war against abortion promoters is similar enough to an ordinary war that in the context of this moral war the rules are such that acts by pro-life forces are not to be taken at face value by the enemy (i.e. the abortion promoters).
Of course just because something does not constitute lying does not mean it is necessarily right.
T
tuopaolo
Guest
Killing is not necessarily a bad thing. Killing results in a bad thing (death), but the act of killing in itself can be bad or good depending on whether the killing is lawful or unlawful. Murder is the unlawful killing of someone, i.e. killing someone one has no authority to kill. Killing someone when one has the authority to do so (such as in a just application of capital punishment, self defense, or in a just war) is a good and praiseworthy thing. It can even sometimes be morally required such as when one has a duty in charity or justice to defend a loved one or someone one is sworn to protect.
Lying on the other hand is bad (i.e. evil) due to “its very nature”, “intrinsically disordered.”
One can never do bad (meaning evil) to acheive something that is good. Lying is always bad (evil) but killing is sometimes good (when down lawfully as in self defense, capital punishment or just war). If one were to ask whether it would be right to unlawfully kill an innocent child in order to prevent a calamity, the answer would be no just as with lying it would be no. So it’s perfectly consistent.
C
canadianlife
Guest
Sure lieing is bad, but the severity of the sin would greatly dimish if you did it to save a baby. I would lie, shoot my dog, do whatever to save an innocent baby. Human life is worth more then anything else. Killing another human to save a baby? Well, thats out of bounds for me
M
Mysty101
Guest
As at least 2 posters have mentioned, you must also be very careful about the legality of what you are doing, and be certain to let your parents know your plan, since they will be very involved if you are arrested.
Couldn’t you just go in looking for someone in the waiting room? You could say you are looking for your friend, and give any name, saying she probably used an assumed name. And this certainly would be the truth—all those poor girls are your friends. (Be certain to check if it is against the law for an anti-abortionist to go there under false pretenses The law may be morally wrong, but that will not stop your arrest, if you break it)
You must be very careful. There are many laws.
As far as mental reservations are concerned, my father (who was a lawyer) once told me–“Anything said for the purpose of deception is a lie” I’m not sure if this is an actual legal definition, or a private interpretation.
As you said, it wouldn’t be good to befriend these girls with a lie. Most of them are just scared kids, and certainly don’t need more lies and confusion. Another horrible thought is that you may talk them out of a very early abortion, but they may come back (especially if they find out you betrayed them) and abort a 6 month fetus, which is far more dangerous for the mother, and more painful for the baby.
Every untruth is a lie, and the end never justifies the means, but not every lie is sinful. There are mitigating circumstances (among which saving a life would certaily be one) which would void the sin, but that still doesn’t mean that it would be the best choice to make. Discuss this with your parents, and the legal advisors of your organization.
The bottom line is that if you break the law or cause a real ruckus, you may put your organization in a bad light and do more harm than good. This is the biggest complaint against Right to life.
And don’t forget to pray very hard (especially to the Holy Spirit) when you are trying to discern the best plan of action.
God bless you and your friends in this beautiful work. My prayers are with you.
Couldn’t you just go in looking for someone in the waiting room? You could say you are looking for your friend, and give any name, saying she probably used an assumed name. And this certainly would be the truth—all those poor girls are your friends. (Be certain to check if it is against the law for an anti-abortionist to go there under false pretenses The law may be morally wrong, but that will not stop your arrest, if you break it)
You must be very careful. There are many laws.
As far as mental reservations are concerned, my father (who was a lawyer) once told me–“Anything said for the purpose of deception is a lie” I’m not sure if this is an actual legal definition, or a private interpretation.
As you said, it wouldn’t be good to befriend these girls with a lie. Most of them are just scared kids, and certainly don’t need more lies and confusion. Another horrible thought is that you may talk them out of a very early abortion, but they may come back (especially if they find out you betrayed them) and abort a 6 month fetus, which is far more dangerous for the mother, and more painful for the baby.
Every untruth is a lie, and the end never justifies the means, but not every lie is sinful. There are mitigating circumstances (among which saving a life would certaily be one) which would void the sin, but that still doesn’t mean that it would be the best choice to make. Discuss this with your parents, and the legal advisors of your organization.
The bottom line is that if you break the law or cause a real ruckus, you may put your organization in a bad light and do more harm than good. This is the biggest complaint against Right to life.
And don’t forget to pray very hard (especially to the Holy Spirit) when you are trying to discern the best plan of action.
God bless you and your friends in this beautiful work. My prayers are with you.
M
Meggie
Guest
Its noble of you, but be aware you, and anyone else involved, could be arrested on like charges:
Also, you need to understand the psycological affects on the girls…if they see you again not carrying a baby as they chose they may resent their action. You have to walk a very fine line. You are asking the girls to trust you, and therfore, putting yourself in a percarious position.
Remember you are still young and your parents MUST be in every public desison you make. If you get hauled off to jail they will be the ones making bail and paying for a lawyer. Also, your parents could be arrested for “conspiring to commit fraud” and other (really bogus) charges. The law will go to no ends to prosecute you if they find out. Believe me…ive seen it happen…
This may only increase your fervor but you HAVE to really think this out. A life is worth sacrificing all for but you cannot make that desision until your are 18.
Take care!
- Disturbing the peace (as perhaps one of the young women get hysterical when leaving)
- Disrupting innerstate commerce (believe me I KNOW people who have been arrested and charged on this)
Also, you need to understand the psycological affects on the girls…if they see you again not carrying a baby as they chose they may resent their action. You have to walk a very fine line. You are asking the girls to trust you, and therfore, putting yourself in a percarious position.
Remember you are still young and your parents MUST be in every public desison you make. If you get hauled off to jail they will be the ones making bail and paying for a lawyer. Also, your parents could be arrested for “conspiring to commit fraud” and other (really bogus) charges. The law will go to no ends to prosecute you if they find out. Believe me…ive seen it happen…
This may only increase your fervor but you HAVE to really think this out. A life is worth sacrificing all for but you cannot make that desision until your are 18.
Take care!
B
bogeyjlg
Guest
Worth more than your soul? We should do all the good we can to save the child. But do not sacrifice your spiritual life for the child’s earthly life by committing the lie.
I repeat, “Do no evil that good may come of it”
W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
This is an interesting topic. Al Kresta’s program for June 3 had Mark Crutcher on talking about Planned Parent(less)hood. The topics were:
Planned Parenthood caught on tape protecting child rapists
Indiana Judge rules against Planned Parenthood
Kresta played a tape made by Crutcher of a woman on the phone posing as a 13 year girl saying she was impregnated by her 22 year old “boyfriend”. They called a number of PP clinics. You would be amaized at some of the sickening responses from PP.
In this case, the women did lie. But it did bring out the evils of PP.
This is a sticky issue since lying is intrinsically wrong. There is also a ethincal concept about doing evil to prevent another evil as being wrong. I have heard it on Catholic Answers Live, but I cannot rememer much about it.
PF
Planned Parenthood caught on tape protecting child rapists
Indiana Judge rules against Planned Parenthood
Kresta played a tape made by Crutcher of a woman on the phone posing as a 13 year girl saying she was impregnated by her 22 year old “boyfriend”. They called a number of PP clinics. You would be amaized at some of the sickening responses from PP.
In this case, the women did lie. But it did bring out the evils of PP.
This is a sticky issue since lying is intrinsically wrong. There is also a ethincal concept about doing evil to prevent another evil as being wrong. I have heard it on Catholic Answers Live, but I cannot rememer much about it.
PF
B
Brad
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:
I appreciate the help but I’m still not convinced. Lying does not necessarily lead to more lies. If it is done for the express purpose to make someone think that what lies inside of them is a living and breathing human being, then lying is leading to truth. I’m not saying this is a good strategy but I don’t know if I could discount all situations, such as lying about the whereabouts of someone so that the Nazis cannot find him/her. Also, if someone is being threatened with death, it MAY be possible to restrain the criminal without killing him but it isn’t always possible to make that judgement call quickly enough so the person is killed. What if he never would have acted on the threat (even though he had a gun pointed at the victim?)? Is killing this person worse than lying to him (i.e. saying if you don’t kill him I’ll give you 1 million dollars?).
B
Brad
Guest
What if someone has the authority to lie in order to trap a criminal?
What if you lie to your abusive spouse to keep him from finding his son who he is threatening to kill?
M
Mysty101
Guest
Remember this is a teen asking the question. Her parents are responsible, and therefore it would be wrong to do anything this controversial and possible illegal without their knowledge and consent.
The situations you mention are different in that you are considering lying to a real criminal, as opposed to a scared kid, who is not even considering breaking the law (as horrible as that is–it is the truth). In the cases you mentioned, it still may or may not be a lie, but I doubt it would be sinful.
The situations you mention are different in that you are considering lying to a real criminal, as opposed to a scared kid, who is not even considering breaking the law (as horrible as that is–it is the truth). In the cases you mentioned, it still may or may not be a lie, but I doubt it would be sinful.
S
sweetchuck
Guest
*pro-life_teen*:
(Judith is a book in the Old Testament about a Jewish heroine whose city is beseiged by the Assyrians. You’ll need a Catholic Bible since the Protestants don’t like this story. She leaves the city, enters an enemy army’s camp under false pretenses, seduces the army leader Holofernes, gets him drunk so that he passes out and then beheads him.)
I’m not saying you should behead anyone, or use Judith’s course of action often at all. But Judith, who was regarded as a wise and moral woman, would not have been regarded as so if she had done this type of thing often. But she did this to save her city. She did this because there was no other way. She did this because everyone had lost their faith that God would save them. She did this because no one else had the courage to stand up to the Assyrians.
Desparate times call for Desparate Housewives. Just kidding.
Desparate times call for desparate measures.
If you do something like the scenario in which you’ve described, you really need to ask yourself, "is there no other way?" Consider that if you fail or if you are discovered, people may be scandalized (i.e., they may reason that if you lie to them about who you are, are you also lying to them about the beating heart?) So perhaps there is a way to do this without lying. Maybe you could go in there simply to “look at some literature” with a friend and then let your friend lecture you on the sanctity of life, while you listen intently. If the abortion mill worker responds with an argument against your friend, listen intently as if you are considering both sides. (Maybe this is a better way to do it without lying.) Consider also that this is something that you could probably only do twice at best, otherwise, the abortion mill workers will recognize you and expose you.
Read Judith and pray for guidance. Perhaps you should do what you’ve described, but maybe you should do something else. I think it is more possible that someone who knows you or knows of you may see you walk into the clinic without knowing your intent and may be scandalized. Make sure you ask yourself that question above.
Ask yourself, what would Judith do?
(Judith is a book in the Old Testament about a Jewish heroine whose city is beseiged by the Assyrians. You’ll need a Catholic Bible since the Protestants don’t like this story. She leaves the city, enters an enemy army’s camp under false pretenses, seduces the army leader Holofernes, gets him drunk so that he passes out and then beheads him.)
I’m not saying you should behead anyone, or use Judith’s course of action often at all. But Judith, who was regarded as a wise and moral woman, would not have been regarded as so if she had done this type of thing often. But she did this to save her city. She did this because there was no other way. She did this because everyone had lost their faith that God would save them. She did this because no one else had the courage to stand up to the Assyrians.
Desparate times call for Desparate Housewives. Just kidding.
Desparate times call for desparate measures.
If you do something like the scenario in which you’ve described, you really need to ask yourself, "is there no other way?" Consider that if you fail or if you are discovered, people may be scandalized (i.e., they may reason that if you lie to them about who you are, are you also lying to them about the beating heart?) So perhaps there is a way to do this without lying. Maybe you could go in there simply to “look at some literature” with a friend and then let your friend lecture you on the sanctity of life, while you listen intently. If the abortion mill worker responds with an argument against your friend, listen intently as if you are considering both sides. (Maybe this is a better way to do it without lying.) Consider also that this is something that you could probably only do twice at best, otherwise, the abortion mill workers will recognize you and expose you.
Read Judith and pray for guidance. Perhaps you should do what you’ve described, but maybe you should do something else. I think it is more possible that someone who knows you or knows of you may see you walk into the clinic without knowing your intent and may be scandalized. Make sure you ask yourself that question above.
R
romano
Guest
Hi All:
I see a lot of folks spouting rules and regulations here. It sort of reminds me of the Pharisees. They too thought that following a bunch of rules made them holy. But we know what Jesus thought of them. . . .
There is a higher logic than that of the legalistic mind, a logic of LOVE and COMPASSION. If someone is impelled by the Holy Spirit to perform a work of love that will save a life, but that work of love involves telling a lie, surely God will forgive that lie.
Telling a lie in cases such as this isn’t unprecedented. The Desert Fathers of ancient Egypt, Syria, and Palestine would do it without hesitation. They often employed guile. And they were much closer to original Christianity than we are.
Let me repeat what I posted earlier since it remains relevant. One of the Desert Fathers, Abba Alonius, said:
"If you do not lie, you will commit many sins."
To refuse to help prevent the murder of the innocent out of fear of infringing a rule . . . ? Surely that is a far worse sin than simply telling a lie.
I see a lot of folks spouting rules and regulations here. It sort of reminds me of the Pharisees. They too thought that following a bunch of rules made them holy. But we know what Jesus thought of them. . . .
There is a higher logic than that of the legalistic mind, a logic of LOVE and COMPASSION. If someone is impelled by the Holy Spirit to perform a work of love that will save a life, but that work of love involves telling a lie, surely God will forgive that lie.
Telling a lie in cases such as this isn’t unprecedented. The Desert Fathers of ancient Egypt, Syria, and Palestine would do it without hesitation. They often employed guile. And they were much closer to original Christianity than we are.
Let me repeat what I posted earlier since it remains relevant. One of the Desert Fathers, Abba Alonius, said:
"If you do not lie, you will commit many sins."
To refuse to help prevent the murder of the innocent out of fear of infringing a rule . . . ? Surely that is a far worse sin than simply telling a lie.
M
Mysty101
Guest
Although I do agree in principle, please remember that she is a minor, and possibly breaking a law.
Please do not encourage her to any actiion without the knowledge and consent of her parents.
Also—as I said before
Please do not encourage her to any actiion without the knowledge and consent of her parents.
Also—as I said before
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